The Beastlords' Den

This is a touchy subject, but I wanna see where and what people want this to be, I wanna see how you feel, so please express why you want it to be what you voted for, Information is key for this, I do not wanna push for something the majority does not want.

Voted single cast spell.

The spell it self in essence is a good idea and one ive allways liked but of the years it has lost its use and fallen short of what it used to be in resent times.

Making it a group spell dose nothing but make it a REALLY high mana cost spell for very little return,what it all ready is prity much. So making it a group spell with out fixing the problems just makes the problems bigger.

I voted for single cast and aura.  If we could use it as an aura, then it would affect pets as well as players.  While most players may be at max atk, I'm not so sure about pets.  Would love if they could do more than just add more atk and mediocre resists though.

if their not gonna improve the spell line, i'd like to see it turned into an aura so I dont have to worry about people asking me to buff them with a worthless high mana cost buff that are taking up nuke spots.

I voted for Aura, and single cast, speaking I really dont feel group fero will help us but hurt in the long run, as stated before the mana cost would be ungodly and with the aura it would hit pets, and players alike..

Just a side note, if you dont read SoE boards, Fero is supposed to be reworked to make it worth while again, least thats the information I have at the current time.

I am hoping they rework it to useful, because right now all it does is sap my DPS in favor of a few more to some other class.  I have posted the information, explained it 6 ways to hell and yet I get tells from people every raid because they want their attack number high.  I don't mind this so much before the fights though I would rather go into a named FM and use it on the mob than someones ego, but getting them in the middle of the fight is just stupid.  It isn't worth losing my dps to give some random rogue/ranger/monk at most 11 more dps.

Save a rework, I would almost rather just lose the spell.  At this point I don't need Fero to cap out my resists, and the attack while nice looking has little effect.  Add corruption to it and at least it would have a limited use again.  If its supposed to raise resists raise them all.

It irritates me to no end that I am supposed to lower my DPS so another class gets higher, and yet when they post the parses I slip down out of the top 5 because I was helping someone else get into it.  A past Raid Leader told me to just ignore them, but he has since disappeared.

Honestly I  would rather see just one spell a Aura.  If we have a Aura  the a single cast is really kinda irrelevant as I am not going to mem 2 different fero spells to accomplish  what one can do. Either way the spell line needs something to make it more useful.

Voted toss it and create something new. Last couple "upgrades" have really just been useless spells that take up one of the small number of spells we get with expansions. As for "reworking" fero, fine, fix TSS version of the spell, don't use it as an excuse for another "upgrade" that may or may not work for us.

When I do use Ferocity it's mainly for the resists, and I load the original level 65 version for that. Why spend 750 or 900+ mana when 600 will do the same job.

The spell line itself worn itself out. The upgrades needed to make it worthwhile to cast are too great for the developers to even consider. Making it a group would not improve its viability in the least as mana cost would assuredly increase an equal amount to keep it worthless to cast. Making it into an aura that doesn't cost any mana I am sure is not even a twinkle in a developers eyes unless they nerf it into a completely laughable state (as opposed to the just regular laughable state it currently is in).

I vote for completely ending the line the way it is. Give us something completely new that will: a) give us a meaningful contribution to groups/raids, and b)something that we will actually want to cast and be worth it to cast.

Current ideas off the top of my head that would be beneficial in nature: accuracy buff or buff that increases/gives triple attack ability for short time.

Or maybe give us something detrimental in nature for raid/group utility such as: Lowering mobs accuracy, or debuff that gives NPC a reverse lifetap.

All i can think of atm this late at night. I am sure there are tons of possibilities to replace a dieing line that won't receive the necessary improvements to make it worthwhile.

Group spell and useful.

I'm not comfortable with the devs going the completely new line of thinking. It would be open to "lets toss them something that looks good on paper and when it's parsed to be useless we can always promise to fix it". It'll just be another year of getting strung along.

Sorry not much love here for auras. Cool in concept but only half hour duration buff with no info of remaining duration and impossible to refresh unless removed through context menu just is another half finished SOE idea.

I think we'd be fools to consider this until beta has started, and we have the the ears of Prathun and Rashere/Maddoc.

There are substantial mob AC changes planned, and Rashere seems to have some other stuff his sleeve (hinted).  The reversal of mob AC stagnation will potentially give ferocity the uses it once had.  Beta will give us many more chances at direct developer communication regarding the Ferocity line, and we'll get a clue as to how the expansion will pan out.  This beta cycle will also be double (?) the length of previous ones, so that oughta help as well.

Comments on the options though:
*Group spell:  Expect triple the mana cost minimum.  Would need to be /tgbable.
*Aura:  Useless unless you're in a dps group.  Would make us a third rate dps group supporter, as I doubt Fero would be made to surpass the benefit of shammy or bard spells/songs.  Not to mention lacking group heal ability.
*Group + single:  Do you really want to take away a spell slot for this?  We'lll only get a certain # of spells (and probably 1 disc).  We're at the point where we need upgrades for our DON spell which will take away a spell slot as well.  We're also looking for upgraded haste - another spelll slot.  Don't forget about cures - another spell slot.
*Throw it out:  Devs have been very resistant to this idea so far....this would be hard to convince them of.

By the time beta is here, and its comming quick it will be too late, beta is less then 2 weeks away, and I do not forsee Fero becomming useful off of one change to mobs AC unless he plans on completely overhauling all the mobs in EQ with AC changes and softcap issues which would take a long time mind you, fero will still stay useless, thus the whole topic of this thread

Quote from: Humlaine on August 04, 2007, 03:08:04 PM
By the time beta is here, and its comming quick it will be too late, beta is less then 2 weeks away, and I do not forsee Fero becomming useful off of one change to mobs AC unless he plans on completely overhauling all the mobs in EQ with AC changes and softcap issues which would take a long time mind you, fero will still stay useless, thus the whole topic of this thread

Attack and AC are two sides of the same coin.  The only reason returns on attack stagnate is due to stagnated mob AC.  (I wish somebody VT keyed would do a good set of attack parses...I think they'd be illuminating).  The only way to make attack useful is to raise mob AC.

There also is no attack softcap, in code.  Player attack formulas *do not* (dev confirmed) work like player AC values.  There may seem to be a softcap on attack, but that varies from mob to mob as the NPC's AC changes.

As far as how wide-reaching the changes will be...I don't know.  I've written to Rashere asking him to backdate these changes across the last few expansion (say, omens onward), but I don't know if that will happen.  I'll try to re-PM him about it shortly...I can only hope for the best.

If we are going to push for other changes to the buff, we Bunnies! well need to start to agree on some form of them (and I'm not talking about the group vs. single).  I also think we have a good chance to get a modification to the defensive side of the buff - I've PM'ed Prathun about that as well.  My votes go towards overcap accuracy and subject-to-the-worn-cap spell shielding/dot shielding.

Haste upgrade idea:  Haste aura - same as our current haste, but just as an aura.


*edited due to some words violating our rules*

I'm unsure of what to pick for ferocity really, there is a softcap, it's just not a 'coded' softcap.

there comes a point in the gains of attack where once you pass it, any additional gains you get past this point will start to have less and less of an effect, it's diminishing returns.

guesstimated numbers to illustrate:

     0 attack will net you  0% of your full attack potential
1000 attack will net you 80% of your full attack potential
2000 attack will net you 95%
3000 attack will net you 99%

I'd have to hear of the proposed effects on the new ferocity... but in it's current form i'd have to say 'scrap it for something else' or 'aura and spell' at least to make it not suck so much on my mana.

Quote from: TabarQuell on August 04, 2007, 06:24:03 PM
I'm unsure of what to pick for ferocity really, there is a softcap, it's just not a 'coded' softcap.

there comes a point in the gains of attack where once you pass it, any additional gains you get past this point will start to have less and less of an effect, it's diminishing returns.

guesstimated numbers to illustrate:

     0 attack will net you 0% of your full attack potential
1000 attack will net you 80% of your full attack potential
2000 attack will net you 95%
3000 attack will net you 99%

I'd have to hear of the proposed effects on the new ferocity... but in it's current form i'd have to say 'scrap it for something else' or 'aura and spell' at least to make it not suck so much on my mana.

This is actually untrue because if you used your base on one mob with mid lvl ac and then another mob with super high ac the attack would give more benefit it all depends on the ac of what your fighting once your attack is at a certain point for that ac lvl then and only then does the value drop.

Exactly as Thor says...the higher the NPC's AC, the higher attack you need to reach a given dps level.

Rashere and Maddoc seem to be working their buttocks off to fix many of Everquest's outdated systems.  They've done a good job on many of them, and are open to suggestions for modifications to these systems.  Hence my personal curiosity to see what they have in store before we collectively start shitting down their necks to get changes made. Beta's only 2 weeks away, as you said.  Hence why I think we can wait 2 weeks to make a heavy push.

It would be good to get something formatted Lucy style for rk. I - III as an alternative, assuming their modifications are unworkable.

I'd also try to get a thread started between the different CC's in CCLand on the Eqlive forums....the Attack/AC system revamps greatly affect rangers for buffage & druids for AC debuffs as well, and affect other melee classes for impacts.  Azathool (monk CC) can also pull on large extensive parses the monkey community has done on benefits of attack, and work from Lluianae (cleric CC) and some others on figgerin' out how the formulae work.

I voted to get rid of the line and make a new one.  Get rid of anything that adds stats that hit a cap.  In this case ATK and Resists.  I would not rely on sony's retuning AC to bring this spell back to life

I voted to scrap Fero. While the devs have mentioned they are going to bump up mob AC for the next expansion there is no promise it will get bumped again the expansion after that. That would temporarily make fero useful in new content but lead to it quickly stagnating again.

Quote from: Grbage on August 06, 2007, 04:41:28 AM
While the devs have mentioned they are going to bump up mob AC for the next expansion there is no promise it will get bumped again the expansion after that.

If it works (crosses fingers), I don't see Rashere and Maddoc not continuing the AC scaling....just doesn't seem in their nature.

Dev's have mentioned that they have a base scaling template for each type of mob, and they modify them as needed to assign certain attributes.  I have a feeling that one of the scaling features will be mob AC, and that the boost will be 'automagically' generated from SoF onwards.

Either way, I'm just waiting for a reply to my message.  Hopefully they won't be too sickeningly busy w/ the FanFaire to answer 'fan mail.'

The problem that i see, is that if they bump up AC significantly, all Melee DPS is going to drop, and then while people Raiding SoF content will look to Ferocity once again to get back to the point they were at, those of us still Pre-Soltaris, are going to be left with another lackluster spell upgrade at best unless something is done about the core of the spell itself.

That and if they boost AC, and hp at the same time, we're going to end up with another 'luclin-style' expansion in regards to cleaning trash and taking down mobs.

Lets also not mention what the higher AC is goign to do to the continued problem of pet scaling in terms of DPS, while still also having problems with surviability.

Simply put higher AC mobs to solve the problem of one spell only causes more problems elsewhere and is a bandaid (temporary) fix to an over all problem in the system already.

shamano hit it on the head, I really dont want to see dev's raise AC on mobs again they did it with solteris, if they boost it much more it will see more diminishing returns in our class, then  it will benefit us in the long term, and it doesn't fix the issues with people who are not in SoF

I don't think they are raising AC just so Fero will have a use. More then likely they want to raise AC to scale back the massive DPS raid melee are currently doing. Unfortunatly, this will hurt casuals due to the lack of weapon upgrades and pets unless they fix those issues too.

+500 attack, +20 CE ( overcap ) , 7% chance to resist incoming detrimental spells, and +500 endurance ( stacks with shaman Stam line , this is the current change for the single cast version of Fero that I am working on atm

I thought the majority wanted Accuracy added to Fero not CE?

Also if we push to get fero changed to an aura then we have to push to get changed into a dps class as well, like zerkers with a pet.

Is that what the majority wish?

why would we have to be changed into a pure melee class? only 3 classes in the game do not have aura's  rangers / bst / Sk's

Quote from: Grbage on August 06, 2007, 05:15:08 PM
I don't think they are raising AC just so Fero will have a use. More then likely they want to raise AC to scale back the massive DPS raid melee are currently doing. Unfortunatly, this will hurt casuals due to the lack of weapon upgrades and pets unless they fix those issues too.

Well I know it isn't jsut to give fero a use anymore, but it is to help return use from alot of the attack buffs out there now and days. Predator, hunter, SV, and the like as well. Don't think they are as keen to stump melee DPS growth at all. Too many big voices behind those classes.

The attack spells will work to raise peoples DPS back up, but will only do that till you get to the next wall of attack versus AC. You simply run into the same problem again later down the road that you got now.

As I also stated this does not help us in portions related to our already growing pet scaling issues.

They system probably needs a revamp for scaling issues or a total replacement. Revamp for a bigger band aid till a better system can be put in place.

Quote from: Humlaine on August 06, 2007, 09:59:00 PM
why would we have to be changed into a pure melee class? only 3 classes in the game do not have aura's  rangers / bst / Sk's

Firstly I did not say a pure melee class I  said a dps class.

The majority voted that they wish an aura.. The major reason given was so that that would get them a slot in the dps group. Therefore it follows that the majority posting see beastlords as a dps class and not a utility class. Considering I see posts that have monks, rogues, zerkers, rangers and even warriors returning higher dps figures it is logical to assume that for us to be a dps class and thus warrant a spot in the dps group we would need our dps upped.

Or do you believe we should just be a in the dps group ahead of a more dps oriented class because we have an aura and thus being in the dps group pads our numbers? Isn't this what we have been accusing rogues of doing when they request the current fero, making their attack number bigger and padding there own dps figures at the cost of our mana?

Don't get me wrong if the devs decided to stop giving us any more utility as such and concentrated on upping our dps I would be fine because at least then we would have a direction. But considering most agree we do okay in the group game and it is the raid game where we have major shortcomings, I fail to see any advantages of an aura over a group spell to help a raid out.

Just my 2c but leave it as it is atm just have the current spells changed to group spells (leaving the same mana cost) and see how it pans out. Buffing a normal dps grp we would go from adding say 15dps for 900 odd mana to adding say 60 dps for 900 odd mana. Plus our dps would increase as we would only have to cast it every 8 mins. Plus I see no real reason why the devs could not do this change prior to the next expansion and we could use the beta to maybe get and upgrade with a mod added.

I think that what they're getting at w/ the aura for raids is a dps group support slot.

The usual 'best' dps group makeup is
Bard
Shaman
Zerker
Monk
2 x zerker/rogue

Bards are obviously in short supply, so they're hoping to take that slot, I assume.  So, imo, this would make us a second fiddle type dps group supporter.  We sure can't replace shamans, as we are woefully inadequate to fill a group healing role in comparison.

In a group setting, aura Ferocity would be great.  Raids however...I think it'll end up seriously lackluster.

And can somebody please explain to me why in the heck anybody would want Combat Effects on Ferocity /boggle!  I have listed several of the many reasons why it's a horrible choice, which nobody has countered, and for the life of me can't think of a single reason that a Zerker/Rogue/Monk would possibly want it (and several reasons why they wouldn't).

Quote from: Humlaine on August 07, 2007, 01:53:35 AM
lets see, procs = more damage
Weapon procs make up a very small %age of dps for almost every single class in the game. Procs are also insane agro in relation to their dps addition (see below for more on agro)
oh ya a bulk of our own dps is from proc's
We are an abberation, due to our low double attack and single dps discipline.  Also, in current top end content, there are no boomsticks.  Heck, the TSS boomsticks don't hold a candle to TBS weaponry.  If we want something to increase proc dps for ourselves (and possibly curse us by relying on boomsticks forever for good dps), let's try to put together a self buff, akin to the Bard buff suggested by Kroe (iirc)
CE is beneficial to all melee classes
False.  Many zerkers avoid procs like the plague.  Melee dps classes are only starting to get procs again, as +DMG augs with procs are being rolled into the game.  The proc has nothing to do with their choice of aug - it's the +DMG part that matters for their dps.  The dps addition from a proc is miniscule, and further reduced when they're chaining disciplines.
Accuracy wont stack with rangers auspice line so thats out of the question
Auspice is a short term buff.  An accuracy component could be coded so that it is in a different slot than Auspice's, allowing buff stacking.  The more potent of the two would win out.  So, auspice would take precedence when it's cast, and Ferocity would take effect again when Auspice fades.
only reaoson I can see why people wouldnt want CE would be if they have aggro issues
BINGO!!

A) Warriors are being moved away from warrior specific high agro proc weaponry, and being given generic agro proc shite (Hi CS IV!) along with other melee classes.  Warrior agro is also usually a shaky thing lately, and hasn't been climbing to match dps class agro for a while now.  TSS guilds also suffer horrid drop rates on agro weaponry, for which there is far more competition nowadays.  Lassitude and Skin of the Reptile can reduce agro in some instances.  There have been no new agro clickies since Plane of Time.  Now that mobs are starting to hit like Mack Trucks again, Warriors are needing to spend much time shielded, reducing agro drastically.  Encounters increasingly use agro-reducing mechanisms (AE FDs, etc,....).  The Haste Rounding bug also reduced warrior agro in comparison to other melee classes

B) Zerkers are screwed for agro.  Their agro is insane, and their deagro ability is simply insufficient.  On top of that, at least one of their best weapons has THE BEST agro proc in the game (Rune V).  Rangers are often riding high on the wave of agro again as well, not being helped by the generic dps class weapons that almost all seem to have Chaotic Strike procs on them.

Increasing melee dps agro relative to warriors is simply a wildly unwise choice right now.  If we're going to get a change to Ferocity, let's get something that we can cast for all raid encounters, for all dps classes, without screwing over the raid.
but they gonna revamp the other fero's we already have so just give one of the lesser ones to them
Developer quote please!

Quote from: Khauruk on August 07, 2007, 01:49:04 AM
I think that what they're getting at w/ the aura for raids is a dps group support slot.

The usual 'best' dps group makeup is
Bard
Shaman
Zerker
Monk
2 x zerker/rogue

Bards are obviously in short supply, so they're hoping to take that slot, I assume.  So, imo, this would make us a second fiddle type dps group supporter.  We sure can't replace shamans, as we are woefully inadequate to fill a group healing role in comparison.

In a group setting, aura Ferocity would be great.  Raids however...I think it'll end up seriously lackluster.

And can somebody please explain to me why in the heck anybody would want Combat Effects on Ferocity /boggle!  I have listed several of the many reasons why it's a horrible choice, which nobody has countered, and for the life of me can't think of a single reason that a Zerker/Rogue/Monk would possibly want it (and several reasons why they wouldn't).

Thanks Khauruk, with the bards in short supply statement I can kinda see where they are coming from. Although once again we are putting a stumbling block in our own path. What happens when more bards are in supply? or for those of us that have ample bards?

Our normal dps group is Shaman, Bard and 4 rogues because we have no zerkers and haven't for a while. Usually 2 or 3 active bards (and lets be honest with melody bards are the easiest class to bot for a dps group) and except for some overlapping periods, for pretty much the last 3 years 1 beastlord. Considering for periods over the last 3 years we have been the number 2 guild on our server I would assume berserkers and beastlords are in much shorter supply then bards.

My point is this every guild is different and as someone else pointed out on another post everyone plays there beastlord different and sees the beastlord class different. Lets not paint ourselves into a corner.

My guild is currently #1 on the server, and we only have 2 beastlords at raids at all times or just one. (and i'm one of them lol).

I didn't get a chance to vote :(....I've been away...but am reading and catching up...

I would have voted for the Aura or for a new spell line to be created, because I've had this line for a long time...I like seeing my resists high because not all of them are maxed with gear and sometimes I miss out on buffs ect..

The one thing I'd have to request if the line were scrapped would be..just not to erase the spell line. Leave it be and just don't upgrade the line, nor touch it at all. That way beastlords who still use the spell for whatever reason can use it as they wish. And at the same time a new Aura or Line can be introduced to hopefully help mend past wounds...

If we were to get an Aura I would prefer Spell Shield+Accuracy+Corrupt Resist...that would be something unquie I think..

Quote from: Mewzee on August 07, 2007, 06:52:13 AM
My guild is currently #1 on the server, and we only have 2 beastlords at raids at all times or just one. (and i'm one of them lol).

We should share beastlords then we could have 2 at raids  :evil:

ok lets look at what fero does or should say was intended to do. A long recast spell with a small duration that is offensive(+attack) defen(+resist) and a hp buff(+stam) IMO the best way to have this spell changed is to keep it in line with what it is meant to do.I also think we will have an easier time with the devs granting us this if we keep this in mind. Based on what this spell was meant for I propose the the hp part be changed to raw hp or stam over cap.The +resist easy fix IMO spell shield.As for offensive this is were the crowd goes wild. We seem as a whole not able to come to an idea we all (or most) agree on.In fact i would say this is the most hotly debated part of this spell line.Some say CE as other say CE is to much agro (news flash you are talking about increasing dps that in itself will increase agro)Also seen acc ,dbl attack,triple attack,proc buff and more that I cannot recall atm.I have listed some of my idea for changes as have others and I mirror some of what has already been said,but here is an idea for you since we are talking about a spell with 3 differant componets instead of having one poll asking how would you change it.Let us have 3 so each part of this spell can be fully looked at and we can see were we stand as a group.Were we agree were we disagree and how best to compromise.So we can get this spell line reworked and make it worth cast again instead of setting in our spell books taking up space

Quote from: stormeye on August 07, 2007, 08:51:35 PM
(news flash you are talking about increasing dps that in itself will increase agro)

Actually, that's not necessarily true.  Increased accuracy does not add any additional agro (because it adds no additional swings).  Critical hits/nukes generate no additional agro either.  Attack adds no additional agro, because it simply modifies the size of the hit.

How to know how much agro your weapons are creating:

Damage number + damage bonus.

So, for example, my mainhand weapon is the Shyra claws (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83501).  Every time I swing that weapon (misses are counted too!), I generate (34 + 16 =) 50 hate.  Minimum hit, 50 hate.  27k critical...50 hate.

I will admit i know little of how agro is generated and was working on assumptions of my own.Such as i did think amount of damage dealt was more of a factor then what is being told to me. If you happen to know were i might find information regarding this please let me know so that I may become more informed.

thesteelwarrior.org (warrior class forums) - lots of good discussion on that site regarding all sorts of game mechanics.  I can't point you to a specific post, but between browsing and searching, there's all sorts of goodies.

Thank you.Never been to the warrior class forums (have heard alot about it)Tend to stick to the class forums of the class i love :) Also if thats the only flaw to be found in my post then I a happy bst lol

Well...if you really want me to pick it apart....paragraphs sure would be nice! :)

As far as the resists...I've heard that they're going to try and revamp the resists in time for SoF again.  So...+65 to all may mean something.  If not, my suggestion to Prathun was 3/4/5% SS and Dot shielding (rk. I - III), subject to the worn cap.  That would be sufficient to make this buff worth casting on poorly geared/low SS/DotShielding toons in raids as a defensive measure.

I oppose anything that gives a person a chance to resist detrimental spells because in a group healing situation (general raid situation), one person who resists a spell does not reduce the healing load at all.  The other 5 still need full heals, so a group heal is cast.  If the buff adds ss/dot shielding to an undergeared toon, that can smooth out the amount of healing required for the group, as it could make additional patch heals unnecessary in many instances.

Stat/Hp - I care least about this part of the buff, and am inclined to not whine even if it stays the same.

Offense  - I've probably made my view known on this point sufficiently by this time :P

QuoteI oppose anything that gives a person a chance to resist detrimental spells because in a group healing situation (general raid situation), one person who resists a spell does not reduce the healing load at all.  The other 5 still need full heals, so a group heal is cast.  If the buff adds ss/dot shielding to an undergeared toon, that can smooth out the amount of healing required for the group, as it could make additional patch heals unnecessary in many instances.

Even if it is in an aura?

I don't care what form it takes...cast single, group, or aura.

Example:
6 people in group.  5k AE DD hits.  Group healer heals 5k worth of damage.  5k AE DD hits again, one person resists.  Group healer still has to heal 5k worth of damage, regardless of the one person who resisted.

That's why I don't like it.  It doesn't help the healers out, which is how I view the defensive side of the game.

paragraphs bah who needs em hehehe. Agreed if resists arr revamped then that part could stay as is.

HP-I for one cant think of one time I have ever said I have to many.Also as it may not be important to you but it is part of the spell and I dare say there are some that would like to see that part reworked.

Offense-yep your against CE hehe. The main prob we have on this still stands not many agree how to fix this part


Aura-IMO this poll shows we want an aura and think it has nothing to do with fero other than hmm maybe we can slid in a aura since the spell is busted

Quote from: stormeye on August 07, 2007, 09:59:53 PM
paragraphs bah who needs em hehehe. Agreed if resists arr revamped then that part could stay as is.
We do! :)
HP-I for one cant think of one time I have ever said I have to many.Also as it may not be important to you but it is part of the spell and I dare say there are some that would like to see that part reworked.
I certainly have never had too many....but, I doubt we'd get enough HPs to make a large difference....and I would trade in HP for a better defensive portion....damage avoided > damage healed.  I focus my thoughts elsewhere, though I would gladly take any extra raw HPs.
Offense-yep your against CE hehe. The main prob we have on this still stands not many agree how to fix this part

Aura-IMO this poll shows we want an aura and think it has nothing to do with fero other than hmm maybe we can slid in a aura since the spell is busted

and I would trade in HP for a better defensive portion....damage avoided > damage healed........... I cant argue that as I agree,but also keep in mind that when they revamp this spell line I dont see them giving us anything better than a few hp.As thats what it was intended to do in the first place.

We need to balance what we expect vs. what we honeslty think they are willing to give us

Quote from: Khauruk on August 07, 2007, 09:02:37 PM

Quote from: stormeye on August 07, 2007, 08:51:35 PM
(news flash you are talking about increasing dps that in itself will increase agro)

Actually, that's not necessarily true.  Increased accuracy does not add any additional agro (because it adds no additional swings).  Critical hits/nukes generate no additional agro either.  Attack adds no additional agro, because it simply modifies the size of the hit.

How to know how much agro your weapons are creating:

Damage number + damage bonus.

So, for example, my mainhand weapon is the Shyra claws (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=83501).  Every time I swing that weapon (misses are counted too!), I generate (34 + 16 =) 50 hate.  Minimum hit, 50 hate.  27k critical...50 hate.

Just wanted to add to this post a bit. Agro is based off of two main factors when it comes to weapons.

1. Potential damage done per swing as, Khauruk pointed out above. Because of this a miss is as good as a hit with this formula.

2. Weapon delay. Since agro is based off of the potential damage done per swing, fast swinging weapons create a lot of agro. Beasts usually end up with fast swinging weapons which is why we tend to create agro out of proportion to the damage we actually deal.

Quote from: Grbage on August 08, 2007, 02:16:49 PM
2. Weapon delay. Since agro is based off of the potential damage done per swing, fast swinging weapons create a lot of agro. Beasts usually end up with fast swinging weapons which is why we tend to create agro out of proportion to the damage we actually deal.

No dual weilding melees except rogues still end up with truly slow weapons.  Most of the best warrior mainhand weapons (i.e. the class traditionally given the slowest weapons) are 23-26 delay.  Swiftcleave, which at least on Luclin is the defacto raiding warrior weapon now, is 19 delay.  The days of getting 30+ delay 1hand weapons itemized are over.

I'd put much of our agro problems to Rake (+400 hate every time, dunno if the attack itself generates any hate), fast debuffing (and often multiple times due to resist checks), and 1-3k hate generated for each nuke.  All that while in the mob's face.

But yes...as a result of how damage bonuses work for the melee hate formula, if you have two weapons of the same ratio, the faster one will generate more hate.

I wouldn't put agro issues at rake's feet, we were having problems long before it was introduced. It is more along the lines of using fast weapons while casting spells in melee range that give us a lot of agro. Also, warriors are none to happy about SOE going away from tanking designed weapons to general DPS weapons for them to use.

Aye, warriors hate it...though they sure don't mind the great dps they do.  Sadly, iirc, Fleshbiter (from Uqua) is still the #1 agro weapon.  Though the haste rounding bug might have moved it to #2 or 3.

My agro problem comes in groups though...and what do I do?  Slow, rake, feral swipe, slow, BE pet, nuke nuke, tank a while, dps when the tank regains agro, maybe nuke some more if the mob is still alive.

Slow - seems to be not quite as much agro as Bazu Bellow w/ 1.5 (690 hate on first tick of the spell), so let's just call it 600 hate.
Rake - 400 + unknown if any
Feral Swipe - 1 + unknown if any
Spiked Sleet - 1135 hate
Ancient: Savage Ice - 1034 hate

So, assuming I only need to slow once, that's ~3,170 of spell based hate w/in the first ~11 seconds of the fight for me to have a chance of doing good dps on the mob.  Raise that by another 500 for those w/ Bite of the Empress.

That leaves me in a situation where if I am grouped with a warrior w/ anything less than Tacvi weapons, and I want to let them tank, I need to debuff from a distance and wait until the mob is ~80% before I can attack.  Nukes?  Forget it.

Is rake our main agro issue?  Certainly not. Does it help though?  Certainly not.

Another reason I wouldn't want CE on Ferocity...I can't cast it on myself then! :)

For me, the long recast time for something that does not last that long is what bothers me the most. 

My two copper

Had a thought on how to improve Fero.  Give it a panther like proc, maybe not as powerful, but would boost dps again.

My objections -
1 - doesn't scale except if it's coded in the spell design.
2 - agro

/shrug....I'm turning into a broken record, I think.

Quote from: Khauruk on August 08, 2007, 10:52:11 PM
My objections -
1 - doesn't scale except if it's coded in the spell design.
2 - agro

/shrug....I'm turning into a broken record, I think.

What about adding a jolt effect?  Right now the only way we lose agro is through roar.  What if they added a self proc that is also a jolt.   Means that if we are tanking we can't use it.

That would degrade some of the utility from the spell though.  The tanks in my guild ask for Fero when we are taking on Denrik (sp?) because of the resists and his charm.  When we are in the pit fighting, I could mem 2 versions of fero one for the tank and one for me and the monk, but that would take away a nuke slot.

and there's my 2 cp.

Hey, trying to find something useful out of the spell.  When Prath said it was broken, but didn't know what to do with it, I started thinking.  Here is a viable solution, maybe not the best, but would give us some utility.

Quote from: dainfrol on August 09, 2007, 12:47:40 AM
That would degrade some of the utility from the spell though.  The tanks in my guild ask for Fero when we are taking on Denrik (sp?) because of the resists and his charm.  When we are in the pit fighting, I could mem 2 versions of fero one for the tank and one for me and the monk, but that would take away a nuke slot.

and there's my 2 cp.

Most raid mobs have such a large -modifier to their spells the little extra bit of resist fero gives isn't worth it. Kinda hard to resist a spell with -1k check on it even with resists maxed. Bet if you checked them with and without fero on their charm resist you will see little to no difference.

They're trying to revamp the resist system again, hoping to roll it out w/ SoF...so, resists might 'mean something' in current content again.  Hopefully it works better than the last time they tried it (TSS beta)!

If so, we should really try to push for an increase in Fero's resist potential.  Nowadays, max resists are easily acheived, and Fero is about 10% of that.

Does anybody remember what their pref. unbuffed resists were when VT was endgame content?

I don't remember that, but I remember we used to require 120 unbuffed resists for PoP targets.  That was at least one to two expansions after PoP though...we're casual so we're always behind on content.

We did use Fero while we did PoP.  We used it on clerics with weak resists, or sometimes on melee depending on the targets and AE used.

I have to say though, I would not be eager to have the ferocity rotation return to the game.  I have retired my egg-timer!  Except for.../sigh...Draygun.

the lying fact here with fero is, reguardless of the changes that are made to it in the future. Your gonna have some Percent that dislike the change, with that in mind we need to find a middle ground on this

first pointer, resists suck, the vast majority are capped or over 450+ in resists. I would really like to see it changed to a percent based resists, along the same lines as the DoN prog aa is, I wanna see it at something like 7% at rk3, 3 at rk 1, 5 at rk2, it would be a nice boost and would be more viable then a resist number

We've been burned twice on fero "upgrades" already. I want to see the TSS version improved to something useful before agreeing to yet another continuation of the fero line.

Hi All =)

Alrighty, Its really tough for me to vote on something i am unaware about what is exactly the outcome.  So what i am going to do is suggest, The order of what my voting choices would be.

1)  Throw it out and make a new line!!  ~~((( by a landslide  ))~~~
2)  Aura
3)  Group Only
4)  Single Cast spell
5)  Group Cast, with single cast only

Now my reasonings
1)If we were to get an upgrade in this spell it would effect ALL classes.  Parse models now would be measured with every possible mentioned buffs including ours.  Having a fero line, would not increase our dps  (much) since it would be based upon the highest melee model in the game ... rogues.  I would rather throw this spell away and have soe give us something where WE BEASTLORDS can make the most use of.  Sorry about feeling a bit selfish there =(

Next For many years now we have been let down about SoE's choices on how to make this spell worth a Da#@.  I am scared they will give us something useless again, and then punish us by not giving anything decent.  Fero gives this.......... + High Attack, please  lets just end this torture.  If your saying to add Double attack or Triple attack or combat effects or accuracy, i see that as Throw the Fero line away and give us something decent.  Even if we were to get any of those attributes, it would be Tested on ....... not the beastlords......... but rogues and zerkers which probably would be capped compared to us.  Does this add any utility for us?  No.  Replace this spell with something dealing with overcaps.

2) Aura.  Well there are some old school peeps out there thinking if they had 3.2k attack instead of 2.95k attack their dps skyrockets up 100 dps........... thats a farce.  At least this way we can keep the peeps off beastlords case for this spell.  Remember Fero line is attack + resist + stats, Not CE not Accuracy not triple attack not double attack.  Sure, if they make it like Aura of Ferocity

Aura of Ferocity (  http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=9018  )
1: Increase Attack Speed by 50%
2: ATK unknown calc: 128 range: 200 -> 0
3: AGI unknown calc: 128 range: 100 -> 0
4: DEX unknown calc: 128 range: 100 -> 0

Well then, All this is...... is a 50% haste.  Does this add raid utility? Again No.  Does this add convenience.......... heck yah.  This aura probably has more benefit to our pets than us.  So this made number 2, because it increased our pet dps woot for that.

3) Group only.  Beastlord dps is primarily melee, we are not shammys, we are not buff robots every 2 mins to recast again for a rotation.  This made number 3 because at least it does not stunt our capabilities of dps too much.  but then again watch SoE make this be a 10 second cast spell that only lasts 3 minutes with a cost of 3k Mana, just so it falls in line with our single cast version.  I don't see this spell as becoming  less intensive on mana.

4)  Single Cast spell............ Although this would be a pain to go back to being a rotation buff robot this will give us the biggest bang for the buck.  I foresee that Single cast version will have the highest benefit i.e. attack+ stats+ resist compared to the others.  I bet you this new spell will be at a cost of 1.8k mana This made number 4

5)  Group spell with single cast available.  So instead of getting a useful spell, now we sacrifice 2 spells for this......... cmon.

This spell line is broken.  Its current capacity is inefficient in mana in terms of dps, and useless with the current AC models.  Even if they add higher AC models in the new expansion we now have a spell that works 1 out of 14 expansions.  Lets end this curse, not just for us but fore everyone.........or we Will be getting a new spell with higher mana cost than our current...... because it only makes sense...........with close to ZERO utility.  Even the aura idea imho does not add much raid utility but if we have to then so be it.

Quote5)  Group spell with single cast available.  So instead of getting a useful spell, now we sacrifice 2 spells for this......... cmon.

We're not tied to a certain number of spells anymore...at least that's what people were told at FanFaire.  But, that makes 2 spells that you'll want at rk. 2-3 and all the junk that entails.

As far as the spell being based upon rogues only, I think we could get it tuned in beta to be useful for monks, zerkers, and rogues.  DPS buff for all melee dps classes.  Heck, I'd love it if it didn't land on rogues, so I wouldn't need to keep asking them to drop SoS.

If we do get single cast (and I'll be surprised if it isn't), we should try to get it's cast time reduced drastically....perhaps 2seconds (recast upped to mesh w/ current).  Something that'll make it worth casting in battle.

Quote from: Khauruk on August 10, 2007, 02:39:06 PM
As far as the spell being based upon rogues only, I think we could get it tuned in beta to be useful for monks, zerkers, and rogues.  DPS buff for all melee dps classes.  Heck, I'd love it if it didn't land on rogues, so I wouldn't need to keep asking them to drop SoS.

The spells upper limitation will be based upon the highest melee in game.  Nevertheless i am sure it will be analyzed through time through other classes.

The spell is broke for a few reasons
1.  Just does not do much when fully buffed, you would have more burst dps with your BaTM or even ur Pet.  If wycca parses it as an 11 dps upgrade spell lasting 6 mins........ 11x6x60=3960 damage bonus in a whopping 6 min fight assuming no players die.  Even with a duration focus of 10 mins............ it will be a 11x10x60  6600 dmg bump in a total of of 10 minute fight assumiming the (monk) does not die.
2.  Inefficient cost of mana
3.  Lastly cast time .......... robbing the beastlords dps (due to cast time) to enhance anothers dps.  You lose mana which could be used for another real dps spell, and u lose melee time during spell casts.  Its a great resist buff though.

Currently if your raid buffed the spell is uselss........ it robs peter and gives it to paul.

I know that it is still in beta stages, but on alla it shows fero as just being an upgrade from the previous ones. Now, i know nothing on alla could be truthful but, its not showing any form of grp or possibility of grp fero or aura.

Is there still a chance to change it with enough push? or is sony still hanging back on us and i am overeacting? Oh, and looks like we might have a new spell......

The spell info that is publicly available before the beta NDA is lifted is beyond unreliable.  It would be wise to assume that every AA and spell is modified/retuned/scrapped/replaced at least 10 times during beta.

I generally don't eeven bother posting on these topics since it seems most people seem to not even use the spell at all.  I am doing the high-end raiding and I constantly keep fero on 6-8 people through out the entire raid each night ( depending on mana dots and deaths ).  There are a significant difference on our rogues/zerkers/paladins/rangers/even me if not using fero on burn type raid mobs.   Do I use it alot during groups?  Well that depends on what kind of grouping I doing or where we are at.  Getting completely rid of the line is a very bad idea.... turning it into an aura and single cast?  Well that sounds nice but not exactly sure what you mean.... is the aura going to have the same effect as the spell?  We generally have 3 beasts on raids every night. 

We are not a DPS class!If that is waht you are wanting to be maybe you should re-roll your toon as a zerker or rogue. Not saying we can't do good DPS because I know we can... I have parsed over 2k more than once on burn mobs ( including pet ) and still keep fero on the high dps people during the fight.  Group version would be nice but I with the others thinking that they would just add a ridiculous amount of mana comsumed to cast it.  I agree the line needs to be reworked and I liked the ideas that Hum came up with........ but if they take it away what significant purpose to you serve on the raid if not to increase the DPS of the raid? 

Quote from: Yoggi on September 23, 2007, 04:43:09 AM
... but if they take it away what significant purpose to you serve on the raid if not to increase the DPS of the raid?

This implies that Ferocity is such a significant buff that:

1) The Beastlord wants to have it memorized and be willing to cast it,
2) Whomever wants it sees it as something that's amazing, and it's not,
3) Your raid sees you as a small shaman that gives small DPS boosts to other melee classes, which is not the case.
4) The answer to your question: SE and Paragon.

QuoteI am doing the high-end raiding and I constantly keep fero on 6-8 people through out the entire raid each night ( depending on mana dots and deaths ).  There are a significant difference on our rogues/zerkers/paladins/rangers/even me if not using fero on burn type raid mobs.

The parses that have been done numerous times disagree with this claim of 'significant difference'. Instead it provides an almost unnoticeably difference, visible only through parsing (and the minds of delusional dpsers).

One berserker (Swampy or Kumbaja, don't recall which) parses about zero difference with over 1500ATK gain (differences were small enough that you can't say they're outside of statistical probability).  He's outparsed himself at 2500atk vs. almost 4,000 atk, even.

Swamp is one of the zerkers that asks for is constantly as do the rest of the zerkers and rogues...

Quote from: Yoggi on September 24, 2007, 04:29:49 AM
Swamp is one of the zerkers that asks for is constantly as do the rest of the zerkers and rogues...

And Swamp is also usually one of the first at the Devs to improve it because it doesn't do a whole lot...

It was raised again last Dev Chat and once again they stated there was nothing they could do to improve it.  :x

Probably both, Kumbaja has never asked me for Fero during raids so almost certainly understands its lacklustre performance. I normally hit a few monks with Fero before main raid mobs since OoC offsets the mana, but most classes still seem to be under the impression its an amazing buff. Many people ask if there is room on my fero rot, not realising I haven't had a rotation since GoD.

For whats worth, I voted aura/single cast.

No amount of changes to the class will bring me back to EQ though.