The Beastlords' Den

Everquest 1 => Sony Beastlord Correspondent Information => Topic started by: Hzath on April 01, 2010, 07:17:34 PM

Title: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 01, 2010, 07:17:34 PM
General Tab

Earthen Alacrity
Earthen Allure
Earthen Artistry
Earthen Brawn
Earthen Brilliance
Earthen Sagacity
Earthen Stability

Each of these is 5 ranks, starting at 5 AA and the in game description says.  Raises the maximum that your [stat] can be increased with items and spells by 5 per rank.

Class Tab

Cat-like Reflexes - 3 ranks starting at 5AA

This passive ability improves your ability to land safely from higher than normal falls.

Chameleon Strike - 1 Rank 7 AA

This ability strikes your opponent and then allows you to blend into your surroundings, reducing the anger generated by your attacks slightly.  20 second refresh.

Hastened (Bite of the asp, Raven's Claw, Gorilla Smash)
1 rank for each costing 5 AA.  Reduces the refresh of the attacks by 10 seconds.

Unknown DB String 0-1
30 second refresh, description says unknown DB string 0-4.  I'm gonna buy it and see if it works.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 01, 2010, 07:35:18 PM
after all this time thats all we get?  im all for the deagro tho thats very much so needed ut still come on what do other class's get
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 01, 2010, 07:43:18 PM
LOLOLOL

Unknown DB String 0-1

is feign death
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 01, 2010, 07:50:57 PM
so it's a FD? can u confirm this
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 01, 2010, 07:51:52 PM
I'm on test right now buying the new AAs and trying them out.  It's a feign death with 30 second refresh.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 01, 2010, 07:54:45 PM
Not to shabby thank you, does it fail alot?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: bobokatt1970 on April 01, 2010, 07:57:08 PM
Cat-like Reflexes - 3 ranks starting at 5AA

This passive ability improves your ability to land safely from higher than normal falls.

After all this time, THIS is what I have been waiting for!
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 01, 2010, 07:58:55 PM
Cat-like Reflexes - 3 ranks starting at 5AA

This passive ability improves your ability to land safely from higher than normal falls.

After all this time, THIS is what I have been waiting for!

 Win!!

 whats better safe fall or insta cast lev aa? lol
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 01, 2010, 08:08:59 PM
When you cast the fubar'd name it says

"You begin to cast Playing Possum"
Then it says
"You play dead"

It does fail, because i got the "Hzath has fallen to the ground" message once, no clue on the fail rate I haven't used it that much yet.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 01, 2010, 08:12:08 PM
ok kool, thanks for the info lets hope they give us a few hasted/ Fail reduceing aa's for this next Xpack
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 01, 2010, 08:13:40 PM
Chameleon Strike - 1 Rank 7 AA

The damage on this was really weak, 400-500 and crits just over 2k.  I don't know if there are any secondary effects I wasn't in a group to check mob debuffs.  I was solo so obviously I have no clue how large the deagro is .

It also has a cast time.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sharrien on April 01, 2010, 08:15:03 PM
Must say, for volume of suggestions that were given, this list is disappointing.  Safe fall seems a particularly egregious waste.  This is a mid-expansion update I guess, so I'll hope that most of our inputs were taken for future AA for the next expansion.

Should also be noted that today IS April Fools Day....I am skeptical of anything posted today until we see what tomorrow brings.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 01, 2010, 08:20:37 PM
Should also be noted that today IS April Fools Day....I am skeptical of anything posted today until we see what tomorrow brings.

This is my thought right now.  The safe fall would be a funny April Fool's, but FD would fall closer to cruel imo.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 01, 2010, 08:23:49 PM
ya and the Chameleon Strike should be insta and replace kick or something dont u think?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 01, 2010, 09:19:31 PM
Hastened (Bite of the asp, Raven's Claw, Gorilla Smash)
1 rank for each costing 5 AA.  Reduces the refresh of the attacks by 10 seconds.

Didn't they say not long ago that Hastened Feral Attacks was suppose to hasten these?

Found the post
I sent a PM to Elidroth asking for confirmation of what Hastened Feral Attacks is supposed to be doing (is that what you were referring to Nusa?).  Nothing heard yet, but it's only been a few hours.
I talked to Elidroth also about Hastened Feral Attacks, the response I got was
Elidorth: I'm looking into it, more than likely it will affect them
Elidroth: I think it was an oversight and I'd check onit

So no promises on whether it will or not, just that its being looked into
So instead of fixing it they just made new AA's. Par for the course I guess
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 01, 2010, 09:29:15 PM
Hastened (Bite of the asp, Raven's Claw, Gorilla Smash)
1 rank for each costing 5 AA.  Reduces the refresh of the attacks by 10 seconds.

Didn't they say not long ago that Hastened Feral Attacks was suppose to hasten these?

Hastened Feral Attacks is really ambiguous.  The name implies feral swipe should be affected, but the in game description says it works on our "animalistic" attacks, implying asp/raven/gorilla.  It's more beneficial working on feral swipe.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 01, 2010, 09:32:35 PM
Sounds aboult right but i dont see anything of this But the genral tab going live. i think its an apr fools thing
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: kharthai on April 01, 2010, 09:38:30 PM
Hastened (Bite of the asp, Raven's Claw, Gorilla Smash)
1 rank for each costing 5 AA.  Reduces the refresh of the attacks by 10 seconds.

Didn't they say not long ago that Hastened Feral Attacks was suppose to hasten these?

Hastened Feral Attacks is really ambiguous.  The name implies feral swipe should be affected, but the in game description says it works on our "animalistic" attacks, implying asp/raven/gorilla.  It's more beneficial working on feral swipe.

From what I understood, it was a beastlord who PM'd Tadenea saying that it worked on those, not a dev.  And yeah, way better that it works for feral swipe. 

Pretty short list though, the fd seems to be the only saving grace.  Agree w/wtf on the safe fall thing, and well, bite/claw etc still doesn't land worth crap on raids :/  Maybe after the next retune I guess.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 01, 2010, 09:48:11 PM
Hastened (Bite of the asp, Raven's Claw, Gorilla Smash)
1 rank for each costing 5 AA.  Reduces the refresh of the attacks by 10 seconds.

Didn't they say not long ago that Hastened Feral Attacks was suppose to hasten these?

Hastened Feral Attacks is really ambiguous.  The name implies feral swipe should be affected, but the in game description says it works on our "animalistic" attacks, implying asp/raven/gorilla.  It's more beneficial working on feral swipe.

From what I understood, it was a beastlord who PM'd Tadenea saying that it worked on those, not a dev.  And yeah, way better that it works for feral swipe. 

Pretty short list though, the fd seems to be the only saving grace.  Agree w/wtf on the safe fall thing, and well, bite/claw etc still doesn't land worth crap on raids :/  Maybe after the next retune I guess.

True on that I would rather it did feral swipe but I was under the impresssion it was suppose to do FS plus asp etc not or.
And 10 secs off a minute reuse time on asp etc isn't really going to be a major anything boost, the jolt we have been after for ages again has damage added to it, so whats that now 5 aa's that reduce and add aggro no matter how many times we just ask for one that reduces aggro. sigh back to work on the rogue.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Tadenea on April 01, 2010, 10:14:44 PM
I think its a 60% success if I am looking at spell data correctly
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 01, 2010, 10:16:58 PM
Ok 60% FD, thats most likey going to get removed also the cats timer on the Deagro aa  needs to go.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 01, 2010, 10:19:15 PM
Where are you looking at this spell data?  I don't see it on lucy. 
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Tadenea on April 02, 2010, 12:32:00 AM
Where are you looking at this spell data?  I don't see it on lucy. 

I use a program called OpenSpell
Instructions are found here http://www.thesteelwarrior.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15214
Old program since it was from back in 2006 but it still works to see basics
Just follow instructions on what I linked
You will get the hang of the program if you mess around a bit
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hamtarro on April 02, 2010, 01:16:02 AM
Edit: I really hope hzath is April fooling us 8/
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hamtarro on April 02, 2010, 01:18:22 AM
So, let me get this straight.

We got:
1) FD every 30 seconds that works half the time. Can anyone think of a single good use for this other than safer afking?
2) 10 seconds off asp, raven
3) SAFE FALL?!?!?!

I am completely serious in this, if they do another "April" release of AAs next year, I really want to start a boycott of suggestions. It is pretty clear to me that they took our suggestions, gave us the worst ideas, and (hopefully, in the best case) wrote down our good ideas to try and sell us another expansion in December.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 02, 2010, 01:39:39 AM
we will have to see how it plays out in a few days, id like to see more aa's then whats just on test tho.

 they need to add alot more aa's like id say 1000 more aa's MIGht hold me off untill the next x pack
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 02, 2010, 01:44:49 AM
It's not my April Fool's joke, however I'm praying it is the dev team's
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 02, 2010, 01:48:48 AM
It is pretty clear to me that they took our suggestions, gave us the worst ideas, and wrote down our good ideas to give to another class.

Fixed it for you Ham  :mrgreen:

I have even my testicles crossed that they managed to get Chameleon Strike right and it actually does give us a very good deaggro with very low resists.

Though I am in no way going to hold my breath in hope.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Tadenea on April 02, 2010, 01:49:51 AM
please make sure you put in /bug and /feedback on new AA's for instance to make it better
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 02, 2010, 01:50:24 AM
because our feedback worked so well the first time?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 02, 2010, 01:54:09 AM
because our feedback worked so well the first time?
and the 2000 times since then.

Thanks for the effort Tadenea it is appreciated but Eildroth made it pretty clear he has no interest in fixing beastlord AA's when he ignored questions with regard to beastlord AA's on his official bug post.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 02, 2010, 02:04:37 AM
To be clear, I'm not mad at Tadenea I'm mad at the situation.

I feel we're being ignored, in the same patch we get improved safe fall rangers get ANOTHER SPELL?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 02, 2010, 02:20:43 AM
hey it happens if we still get Fd/deagro so many are bitching aboult it all ready it most likey will not stick and safe fall with have 9 ranks lol.

 long as they hold then i will be happy for now.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 02, 2010, 02:30:19 AM
hey it happens if we still get Fd/deagro so many are bitching aboult it all ready it most likey will not stick and safe fall with have 9 ranks lol.


I just can't help thinking that FD will fail a lot and the emote for it will be "Sikkem assume's the position"  :lol:
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: wildwaters on April 02, 2010, 02:48:33 AM
If it is a 'normal' fd it will get seen through alot whith out the aa's to improve it. The question is did they give you fd with a built in willful death aa? I, as an sk, would bitch about that >.< I doubt they did though so in situations where mobs cast at all expect to be eaten up alive. /grins evilly
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hamtarro on April 02, 2010, 03:29:59 AM
Lol, with a 60% success rate. I just can't get over this. Never before has it been so obvious that they are "setting up" the next expansion's sales. In December we will see "new aa! Increases the sucess rate of FD by 30%! $40 please..."

I love my beastlord, I really do. And I get that we are a Jack of all trades class. But seriously? I'm tired of having jack crap worthless utility (see paragon's weakening with time, Ferocity, etc) and now they just lump
in some really, really terrible FD that we can add to the list? Oh joy.

Sorry for my rants I'm sure I'm overreacting hehe 8)
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Umlat on April 02, 2010, 03:38:40 AM
Let's see 1) the Safe fall thing ... seems not that useful witthout the base skill.
             2) Where's FLURRY? - Every other melee/hybrid got -- yet another "everyone in archetype, except bst" common skill - thank you SOE devs. If a company pulled this kind of blatant prejudice stuff as often as the devs do in the real world, they'd be before a human rights comission faster than you can say bigot.
             3) FD - great wheres the pet fade too? Half the point of being able to escape is to avoid having to redo pet summoning buffing and being without gear. Assuming it works...is it spell proof or is this no frills original FD at its finest?
             4) Chameleon Strike - not holding my breath for it to work properly, no other beastlord aggro reducer ever has. Expect it to be changed into a pet heal in a future patch.
             5) Hastened attacks ok I suppose but it would be nice if this stuff actually landed on raid mobs and didnt turn a raid mob to attack you instead of the main tank.

I fully expect our relative DPS position to fall even further this time around, along with our utility.

Personally, I am sick and tired of getting the short end of the stick from the devs. I am sick of SOE in general cutting us out of any sort game input as a class. They don't fix what they break in the way of beastlord abilities, they show NO IMAGINATION in giving us abilities, they refuse to provide us with an area in which we excel at/are the best in. They have systematically taken away any of our class defining abilities to the point where we are lucky if they are even equal to the new abilities handed out to other classes. Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot, we can HEAL our UNDERPOWERED, THIRD RATE pets, that even MINOR PET CLASSES' PETS are drawing almost equal to. Yes, we can HEAL those pets in NINE or TEN DIFFERENT WAYS ... and they still can't survive much of the time.

I have just about had it. If they thought this was supposed to impress us, then they need psychiatric medication more than my schizophrenic crack addict ex-rommate ever did. If this isn't some sort of sick April Fool's joke and they don't start acting like SOE has an equal regard for all its paying subscribers, I'm done. It's either that or a spam campaign via PMs and that's not worth the effort at this point, since we know they won't read it.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Umlat on April 02, 2010, 03:42:15 AM
Lol, with a 60% success rate. I just can't get over this. Never before has it been so obvious that they are "setting up" the next expansion's sales. In December we will see "new aa! Increases the sucess rate of FD by 30%! $40 please..."

I love my beastlord, I really do. And I get that we are a Jack of all trades class. But seriously? I'm tired of having jack crap worthless utility (see paragon's weakening with time, Ferocity, etc) and now they just lump
in some really, really terrible FD that we can add to the list? Oh joy.

Sorry for my rants I'm sure I'm overreacting hehe 8)

I don't think you are, but then again, I've skilled up in Rant by several dozen points in the last few months.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 02, 2010, 03:47:30 AM
Lol, with a 60% success rate. I just can't get over this. Never before has it been so obvious that they are "setting up" the next expansion's sales. In December we will see "new aa! Increases the sucess rate of FD by 30%! $40 please..."

I love my beastlord, I really do. And I get that we are a Jack of all trades class. But seriously? I'm tired of having jack crap worthless utility (see paragon's weakening with time, Ferocity, etc) and now they just lump
in some really, really terrible FD that we can add to the list? Oh joy.

Sorry for my rants I'm sure I'm overreacting hehe 8)

I don't think you are, but then again, I've skilled up in Rant by several dozen points in the last few months.

I think I've doubled my eqlive post count today.  Ranger's got a new spell after their 50+ page thread crying about the HA nerf.  Clearly this is evidence that in order for us to get useful things we must throw temper tantrums in public forums.  After this current insult, I for one am up for for the challenge(assuming it's not revealed as a joke tomorrow).
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hamtarro on April 02, 2010, 04:13:06 AM
I just want a developer to tell us how they envision our class. Seriously. Please. My server has MAYBE 6 top end beastlords, total. I understand that it is hard to define our class because many of us don't agree on what direction we would like to go (some want utility, some want dps, some want pet tanking, etc etc) but I think the one thing that we all could agree on is that we do need SOME direction.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Grbage on April 02, 2010, 04:20:56 AM
Ok Ok calm down guys. We've been asking for FD to dump agro not as a pulling tool (though some want it for pulling). Think of it this way, it's a 60% chance of dumping agro back on the tank which is one heck of a lot better then what we've had in the past.

IF the devs want to increase our pulling utility down the road then more FD aa's/pet FD aa's can be added later. Personally I don't see that happening but I didn't think they would actually give us FD either.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 02, 2010, 04:27:48 AM
We needed improved deagro, I agree 100%.  Deagro AAs are the new pet heals, apparently.  We don't need 6 different ways to lower our agro, we need one or two ways that work.  A plethora of pretty bad AAs does not = one really good AA.

A 60% chance of living when the warrior dies on raids is significantly higher than I have now, I can't deny that.  However, when almost every other class is at 100% it it a blatant insult to give us this 60% ability AFTER almost every other class is at 100%.

Roar of thunder, bite of the asp, raven's claw, gorilla smash, chameleon strike, Unknown DB String 0-1.  Got a good list going, by 2012 I estimate 17 pet heals and 9 deagro AAs.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 02, 2010, 04:41:40 AM
Ok Ok calm down guys. We've been asking for FD to dump agro

We have been asking for a simple jolt like ability with no frills since prior to Roar of Thunder in 2004.

These 2 are just 2 more failed attempts at getting that jolt. They seem incapable or simply refuse to do it for some reason or another.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Nusa on April 02, 2010, 06:29:41 AM
April 1 is the wrong day to say anything about anything. You don't know who is joking and who is serious, so why bother saying or reacting to anything until it's said on another day?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: bobokatt1970 on April 02, 2010, 10:23:32 AM
I know Umlat is being serious, but I simply get a kick at how he writes... had me cracking up over the medication and your roomate.
Sorry just trying to find something "positive" about this whole thing.

I can't seriously imagine that this would have anything to do with April Fools... I've been reading the mage forum and necro forum and chanter etc., makes no sense as too much work has gone in for each class for these AA"s etc., just to be funny.  That's a heck of a lot of coding/changes or additions all for just a joke.  What it does look like is simply a "test".  Anything can change.

I would hope the FD AA, if that is what it finally becomes, could be incorporated as a possible agro flush rather than actually pulling/splitting etc, just as Grbage suggested. Maybe yet another "reduce agro by xxxx and DD for xxx" is simply not viable, when RIGHT after it your dishing out more spells and DPS, procs, crits etc.  Our DPS has gone up substantially in my books and especially with frozen venom and how often that pops.  Maybe this is a way for us to be a bit different rather than getting a renamed version of Jolting Kicks.

Looking way way back at AA suggestions, did folks not ask for some sort of FD as a wish?



Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sharrien on April 02, 2010, 01:39:55 PM
I'm ambivalent about FD, I don't see using it that much with such a high fail rate making it a dubious puling tool at best.  Some are describing it as a way to dump aggro, but don't you still have the same aggro when you stand up again?  This seems like a waste of time since we're not doing any dps laying on the ground, so might as well be dead anyway.

If these AA are all in fact serious, then we need to revamp how we submit our own inputs.  We obviously cannot send every stupid idea (yes, I'm calling innate safe fall very, very, stupid) to the devs cause they will pick whatever is on the list that they can implement by their due-date to reach their target AA for the expansion.  That's how we end up with a criminal waste of time like safe fall.  In the future I think we need to come up with inputs, vote on them or something and then submit ONLY our top ten.  We can't just toss our entire brain storming list to the devs without vetting it first. 

Tadena, I really appreciate your efforts to help, next time I hope we beasts can put together a more well thought-out list to pass to Elidroth.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Grbage on April 02, 2010, 02:02:35 PM
We needed improved deagro, I agree 100%.  Deagro AAs are the new pet heals, apparently.  We don't need 6 different ways to lower our agro, we need one or two ways that work.  A plethora of pretty bad AAs does not = one really good AA.

A 60% chance of living when the warrior dies on raids is significantly higher than I have now, I can't deny that.  However, when almost every other class is at 100% it it a blatant insult to give us this 60% ability AFTER almost every other class is at 100%.

Roar of thunder, bite of the asp, raven's claw, gorilla smash, chameleon strike, Unknown DB String 0-1.  Got a good list going, by 2012 I estimate 17 pet heals and 9 deagro AAs.

If you periodically hit FD, stand back up and turn attack back on during a fight you wont be anywhere near the top when/if the tank dies. Properly played FD classes have been doing this since it was introduced in the game. Set up a macro and you barely skip a beat in your dps.

Give us a 100% FD and we are well on our way to being a pulling class, give us the necro pet fd aa (logical next step) and we would be one of the best pulling classes around. Gentleman, that's not a path I personally want to go down. If it was I would of made a monk instead.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: kharthai on April 02, 2010, 03:01:39 PM
If you periodically hit FD, stand back up and turn attack back on during a fight you wont be anywhere near the top when/if the tank dies. Properly played FD classes have been doing this since it was introduced in the game. Set up a macro and you barely skip a beat in your dps.

Pretty much what I was thinking.  I'm very surprised at the low reuse, and I'd prefer a higher success rate for sure, but it could be much worse, heh.  Safe fall is pretty funny still.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Carnivac on April 02, 2010, 03:09:51 PM
Quote
Class - Magician
Frenzied Burnout - 1 more rank- 10 aa
Host in the shell - 1 rank - 10 aa - This ability creates a shield of runes around your pet (4 min recast)
Drape of Shadows - 1 rank - 12 aa - This ability allows your pet a chance to fade from the enemies sight (2min 30 recast!)

I hope we get Drape of Shadows, it's somewhat annoying! that they are most likely giving the Mages an ability to pet pull, but not Beastlords.

Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: kharthai on April 02, 2010, 03:13:36 PM
Uh yeah, they can keep that imo.  It's not like it drops the mage themself from aggro.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 02, 2010, 03:49:59 PM
We needed improved deagro, I agree 100%.  Deagro AAs are the new pet heals, apparently.  We don't need 6 different ways to lower our agro, we need one or two ways that work.  A plethora of pretty bad AAs does not = one really good AA.

A 60% chance of living when the warrior dies on raids is significantly higher than I have now, I can't deny that.  However, when almost every other class is at 100% it it a blatant insult to give us this 60% ability AFTER almost every other class is at 100%.

Roar of thunder, bite of the asp, raven's claw, gorilla smash, chameleon strike, Unknown DB String 0-1.  Got a good list going, by 2012 I estimate 17 pet heals and 9 deagro AAs.

If you periodically hit FD, stand back up and turn attack back on during a fight you wont be anywhere near the top when/if the tank dies. Properly played FD classes have been doing this since it was introduced in the game. Set up a macro and you barely skip a beat in your dps.

Give us a 100% FD and we are well on our way to being a pulling class, give us the necro pet fd aa (logical next step) and we would be one of the best pulling classes around. Gentleman, that's not a path I personally want to go down. If it was I would of made a monk instead.

If you want to use the logic of continual FD to keep agro suppressed my point still stands.  If we use FD for our deagro needs we no longer need hastened asp/raven/gorilla or chameleon strike.  Either way, I agree that a fast reuse FD it going to get turned into a pulling tool eventually.  We're already spread in too many directions and having "puller" added to the list will only increase the confusion and class identity crisis.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Grbage on April 02, 2010, 03:56:23 PM
I agree we already have to many deagro aa's but that's because the devs continously do it wrong, we keep complaining and so they try again.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 02, 2010, 04:49:55 PM
said it b4 i will aain Jolting kick Plus Safe prev like Zerkers or something like it. Problem fixed. i think FD would be a Fun tool. but over all its going to kill what little dps head way we have made. id drop FD for a jolting kick and a REAL dubble/tripple atk and flurry
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Tadenea on April 02, 2010, 04:53:04 PM

That ranger spell rangers got in its current form its just a knockback with snare and a 10% chance to Memblur
(as a ranger I dont even know why we got that)

Think about every classes hates there AA's they got least the ones I talked to, Rangers, Beastlords, SK, Shaman's
I know Rangers even got some AA's not even on there imput list
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Grbage on April 02, 2010, 05:00:23 PM
Well, if Elidroth decided to take some monk stuff to give us I can see how he hit upon FD and safe fall. Not much else except return over ac soft cap that can be given to us from monks and that's not an aa.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Carnivac on April 02, 2010, 05:27:53 PM
Uh yeah, they can keep that imo.  It's not like it drops the mage themself from aggro.
Just read on the Mages forums:
Quote
Definitely is not 100pct chance to work, and, when it does work, you still retain your agro on the mob, so still don't see a way to use this for splitting unless still combine with CoN. For dropping agro on pet when needed, sure, allow that tank to move the mob easily, or ensure that named gonna lose agro on fluffy and hit RS pets, sure.... still don't think its gonna stay on the top page of any of my hotbars.
Crap spell then . . .  :-( not really useful at all to Mages if that is going to be the case.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 02, 2010, 05:28:57 PM
 they can give us real dubble and tripple atk and flurry like most all melee shit id lov that more then Fd TAKE FD AND GIVE US JOLTING KICK AND REAL MELEE SKILLZ
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: kharthai on April 02, 2010, 06:06:20 PM
Think about every classes hates there AA's they got least the ones I talked to, Rangers, Beastlords, SK, Shaman's
I know Rangers even got some AA's not even on there imput list

Yeah, one thing is for sure, pretty much every class has their emo outrage pants on.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: k9wazere on April 02, 2010, 06:56:15 PM
My biggest problem with dying as a Bst was always re-gearing the pet (find a mage... bother the mage... again and again... lose friends, etc :p)

The XP loss, etc, doesn't bother many of us any more I'm sure.

If we could have an "escape" AA for the pet, which made it persist through *our* death, to re-accompany us at our bind point, that would be more awesome for me than FD.

Although I do like the idea of safely making ninja-AFK'ing more safe :p
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: bradam on April 02, 2010, 07:10:43 PM
My biggest problem with dying as a Bst was always re-gearing the pet (find a mage... bother the mage... again and again... lose friends, etc :p)


Ugh mine too..  Especially when grouping as there's generally none around.  I find myself giving my warder all the defiant gear that drops or sometimes rots, like that hoary dorf gear that drops in T8  =)

WTB an AA to summon pet gear!
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Mazame on April 02, 2010, 07:22:57 PM
I for one am happy with the list.

as for the new ranger knock back and snare if you don't see the point in it i am sorry but you just got one of the best pulling tools in the game. I box a chanter and the punt mob is one of the best ways to pull combine it with cover track you punt one mob the other next to it comes running you hit cover tracks and lose aggro on the 1st and then tag and then what was a double pull is now a single  split rooms the right way and your skills are up when you need them.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Grbage on April 02, 2010, 07:53:07 PM
My biggest problem with dying as a Bst was always re-gearing the pet (find a mage... bother the mage... again and again... lose friends, etc :p)


Ugh mine too..  Especially when grouping as there's generally none around.  I find myself giving my warder all the defiant gear that drops or sometimes rots, like that hoary dorf gear that drops in T8  =)

WTB an AA to summon pet gear!


Just got an upgrade from EM3 to EM4, still havent summoned a new pet because the current one is fully kitted out...
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 02, 2010, 08:12:11 PM
How do you not die?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: k9wazere on April 02, 2010, 08:34:42 PM
How do you not die?
Hacks! :p

I wish I knew. I can't keep mine alive 5 minutes!
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 02, 2010, 08:59:36 PM
well the only reason i live 75% ish of the time i  have Pocket ench so i pull the room and AE mez lol kill em all leaving a small spacer mob to mob to brake camp.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Khauruk on April 02, 2010, 09:45:02 PM
How do you not die?
Hacks! :p

I wish I knew. I can't keep mine alive 5 minutes!

I can honestly say almost all my pet deaths are due to me not paying attention.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Tadenea on April 03, 2010, 02:00:37 AM
I for one am happy with the list.

as for the new ranger knock back and snare if you don't see the point in it i am sorry but you just got one of the best pulling tools in the game. I box a chanter and the punt mob is one of the best ways to pull combine it with cover track you punt one mob the other next to it comes running you hit cover tracks and lose aggro on the 1st and then tag and then what was a double pull is now a single  split rooms the right way and your skills are up when you need them.

Snare dont last long 3 ticks still CT is 12-15min reuse, either way it needs improved but this is not ranger forums
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Mazame on April 03, 2010, 06:05:46 AM
SS is 10 min reuse and that is what I use with chanter I punt and then SS so ya it not for the fast pulling group but if done right you can split one mob out then have a 2nd mob that is a solo pull to help while the spliting tool is on cool down.


ya this in not ranger forum. but my 1st thing still hold I am pleased with the add we got. they may not be the best or perfect. but hom many years did Monk / sk go before their FD works the way it dose today.  how many AA did they have to spend to get it to where it is today. for us to ask for a FD that is = to there from day one is a joke we just learn the skill we need time to improve it and leave the door open for more aa down the road so ya it not perfect but has room to grow so I am happy
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 03, 2010, 10:03:02 AM
Comparing this ability to monk/necro/sk feign death from 11 years ago is a terrible way to analyze what we're being given.  I'll ignore this fact and assume, as you are, that this "Unknown DB String 0-1" is the start of a great AA line that will solve our agro problems.  If this is truely the case, why then do we also need Chameleon Strike and hastened lines for our Asp/Raven/Gorilla attacks?  

The point I'm trying to make, is that individually all of these AAs are a few tweaks away from being useful tools, but when you look at the entire package we're being given all of the tools are for the same job.  You don't have 4 keyboards plugged into your computer for a reason.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Mazame on April 03, 2010, 06:28:33 PM
I don't know where this idea of aggro problems comes from. I am sorry I just don't see it.

tips I use

Stand at max melee
Watch hot ( if MT about to go down hold back a min )
Use current deaggro tools ( use them after big aggro chains )
use old school assist ( don't engage untill main tank has aggro )
don't assist on inc to prevent from getting ramp if ramp tank dies
have good knights / war that can pick up fast if MT dies ( back out and let them pick up don't stand there to get raped)
Load a heal ( keep your self full hp for that time you might get a ae / stray hit )

I am often one of the last in the raid to die so I am tired of the QQ about our aggro problems.  if you got aggro problem learn to control it stop asking for an easy button to do it for you
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 03, 2010, 08:35:11 PM
Have good knights.. not somethign WE can personaly see to unless u oversee your sk and pallys of your guild.

 i offten wait a few secs to start digging in, but a few nukes and 4 dots later(after 2-3) min fight we WILL gank agro our Hate per min is well move then any warrior i have sean. so even if a war blowss everything and is well ahead of us short term but long term we gank it. groups we gank it.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Grbage on April 04, 2010, 04:39:51 PM
I don't know where this idea of aggro problems comes from. I am sorry I just don't see it.

tips I use

Stand at max melee
Watch hot ( if MT about to go down hold back a min )
Use current deaggro tools ( use them after big aggro chains )
use old school assist ( don't engage untill main tank has aggro )
don't assist on inc to prevent from getting ramp if ramp tank dies
have good knights / war that can pick up fast if MT dies ( back out and let them pick up don't stand there to get raped)
Load a heal ( keep your self full hp for that time you might get a ae / stray hit )

I am often one of the last in the raid to die so I am tired of the QQ about our aggro problems.  if you got aggro problem learn to control it stop asking for an easy button to do it for you

Yeah, we can all watch our agro and be one of the last standing, that's not the point. The point is we are the only melee that has to gimp our dps to stay off of hott. The others can go all out from assist call and not gank agro by using their deagro abilities. That's the point.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Lathon on April 05, 2010, 03:08:48 AM
Quote
tips I use

Stand at max melee
That is one option but not feasible everytime especially for the new conten ie: Beast raid. Standing at max melee for large mobs can put us out of reach to use our melee abilities like Foray and Feral swipe granted kick seems to land without fail.. win~

Quote
Watch hot ( if MT about to go down hold back a min )
You never really know when a tank is about to go down with DI's delay death aa's and last sec heal saves.. hard to base it off of an "about" to go down. The issue is when the tank DOES go down we can't get off enough de-aggro to not land in HoT.. depending on the situation.

Quote
Use current deaggro tools ( use them after big aggro chains )

Herein lies the problem (a few)
1. as of now we have 3 de-aggro spells and 1 aa of which we can only use 2 at any giiven time together (Roar & w/e spell you use)
2. Out of those 3 spells, all of them being on the same timer helps none and trying to land them in a raid setting isn't gonna happen so we are down to 1 clear de-aggro method.
3. Say the current raid mob lets you land those spells like SoD tower, then the issue you are up against is the refresh timer ... Clearly we are at a disadvantage with trying to bump off aggro and even more so now with high aggro spells such and Vitrik and Frozen Venom that actually adds a hate mod inthe spell itself.

Quote
use old school assist ( don't engage untill main tank has aggro )
don't assist on inc to prevent from getting ramp if ramp tank dies
have good knights / war that can pick up fast if MT dies ( back out and let them pick up don't stand there to get raped)
This is all raiding 101 and should be a given for any person in a raid or raid guild. It's not the starting point where the issue comes in for aggro, it's after longer fight times and trying to sustain a method of not getting aggro.

Quote
I am often one of the last in the raid to die so I am tired of the QQ about our aggro problems.  if you got aggro problem learn to control it stop asking for an easy button to do it for you

What are you raiding and how do you parse.. those would be my questions to that comment. Because as much as all of that is fine and dandy for tower on most occasions it can all be tossed out the window if you are parsing high or deliver extreme dmg in a short amount of time ie: all crit hit spells landing or what have you. We need a more effective means of clearing aggro that doesn't hit us in the dps dept.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hamtarro on April 05, 2010, 03:41:28 AM
Raid aggro isn't really a problem for me unless one of our less than stellar tanks happens to be assigned to MT duty. My only real problem on raids is when the main tank goes down before another picks the boss up. At that point I am dead about 50% of the time before I can tell my group healer "heads up! I'm about to be tanking!"

I do have aggro problems, however, in the group game. I definitely have to throttle back there or I am just going to end up as the tank (unless one of the aforementioned MTs happens to be in my group).
 
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Catnip_Inny on April 05, 2010, 04:50:23 PM
"Ok Ok calm down guys. We've been asking for FD to dump agro not as a pulling tool (though some want it for pulling). Think of it this way, it's a 60% chance of dumping agro back on the tank which is one heck of a lot better then what we've had in the past."

so in order to fix our aggro issue we need to lower our dps... hell i coulda told u that a LONG time ago... seriously though the list is pretty lame... FD could be fun and somewhat useful in certain situations.. hell i still try sneak pulling from time to time with ym vah shir...

really thought we were getting something solid with this patch but i shouldnt have got my hopes up lol... hopefully the outcry from our community will prompt a change but again not gonna get my hopes up...

SEE YOU GUYS IN GFAY ... sky diving contest off the spires anyone? :P
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Tadenea on April 05, 2010, 07:19:56 PM
You can post your AA bugs on this post so says the AA Dev Elidroth
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=180&topic_id=161436#2433949
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Razimir on April 05, 2010, 07:36:15 PM
I can't comment on other stuff, that I haven't tested yet but safe fall... Where in the hell that idea came from? Now that we have permanent levitation, that just seem to be very odd idea.

60% fail FD with 30s refresh? Cannot see many uses for that, I'd rather take 100% FD with 5 min CD than 60% with 30 sec CD.

-Raz
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sharrien on April 05, 2010, 08:31:52 PM
You can post your AA bugs on this post so says the AA Dev Elidroth
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=180&topic_id=161436#2433949

I think that post is intended for bug reporting.  If it is working, even if we think the AA is junk, I don't think that's the place for it.  I sent feedback via PM to Elidroth about safe fall.

Then again, it is a thread that he reads, so maybe posting there would get your voice heard....I sure haven't seen anything back from the last 3-4 PMs I sent over the last month or two.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Nusa on April 05, 2010, 08:57:50 PM
I agree. Remember the realities of the development cycle. The patch is scheduled for April 14, less than 9 days away. The internal lockdown on changes for live, other than actual game-breakers, is going to be sooner than that -- probably only 3 or 4 days away. The lockdown on design changes for this patch, beyond minor tweaks, has almost certainly already happened. The dev focus right now is going to be solely on bug fixes and cleanup for the patch.

Just about the only major design change you might get from screaming for THIS patch would be for the feature to get pulled entirely...nothing else would have time to be QA'ed. I'd hate to see something with real potential, no matter how inadequate some of you think it is, get pulled from going live.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Brane on April 05, 2010, 10:53:39 PM
Gods I really hope part of these AA-listings were an elaborate April-Fools joke!  :roll:
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Tadenea on April 05, 2010, 11:55:39 PM
nm
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 06, 2010, 12:00:18 AM
Added to list 3/2 and sent in
1. Bear Hug = short range summon NPC to you and does small dmg, (to help with pet push)
2. Quickened Invisibility = Lower cast Time of Improved Invis AA
3. AA to add some skills such as Sneak, Hide, Safefall, Forage, Tracking
4. AA to lower Fizzle chance of spells not covered by Mastery of the Past

It seems it was on the list you sent in after the deadline.  Maybe they took that as a sign that we really really really wanted it?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: nedoirah on April 06, 2010, 01:13:23 AM
I don't know if it's my bad luck but I was playing with our FD aa and it failed more than 1 out of 3 tries. I think it failed more like 67-87% of the time I played with it. Not something I want to bet my life on. Maybe another day/night of testing will reveal something else.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: kharthai on April 06, 2010, 02:12:12 AM
I don't know if it's my bad luck but I was playing with our FD aa and it failed more than 1 out of 3 tries. I think it failed more like 67-87% of the time I played with it. Not something I want to bet my life on. Maybe another day/night of testing will reveal something else.

Were you moving when you used it?  Or fighting caster mobs?  (can't seem to get on test to see :/ )
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Brane on April 06, 2010, 08:08:11 AM
Were you moving when you used it?  Or fighting caster mobs?  (can't seem to get on test to see :/ )

Being part monk BST FD should be based on Monk FD at least, meaning it is not a spell, so we should be able to use it in full run like a monk?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Zunar on April 06, 2010, 08:25:09 AM
I can't comment on other stuff, that I haven't tested yet but safe fall... Where in the hell that idea came from? Now that we have permanent levitation, that just seem to be very odd idea.

60% fail FD with 30s refresh? Cannot see many uses for that, I'd rather take 100% FD with 5 min CD than 60% with 30 sec CD.

-Raz

I'd rather get flurries, but yeah..
Knowing it'll fail ALOT of the time, it could atleast be insta used like monks have...
also add 10% chance for fade too all the better....That I could live with personally.

About safefall....meh /thumbs down
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Umlat on April 06, 2010, 08:46:07 AM
I don't know if it's my bad luck but I was playing with our FD aa and it failed more than 1 out of 3 tries. I think it failed more like 67-87% of the time I played with it. Not something I want to bet my life on. Maybe another day/night of testing will reveal something else.

From my experience with tradeskilling, there is a noticeable deviation between calculated percentages and the actual percentages obtained when attempting things in game. According to the EQTraders calculator, 60%/40% success rate on FD is the same success rate a 300 Tradeskiller with a +15% trophy and all 3 Ranks of the appropriate Mastery will experience when attempting combines with a trivial of 502. Mind you, this involves small samples when any actual calculations have been done (ie 3 out of 10), but the overall "feel" I get from all the combines I have done through mastering 7 tradeskills with GM trophies and (insanely) a 283 research skill (100kpp for the last 3 skillups I got means INT casters have a SLIGHT advantage in this skill. I don't think my enchanter managed to spend 100kpp going from 0 to 300 and a GM trophy.) is that successful use of a skill is generally lower than what is predicted. Then again a) EQ RNG has always seemed quirky and, b) it's a well know fact that 43.9% +/- 0.4% of all statistics are useless 19 times out of 20 (including that one).

While nobody expects 100% certainty from FD, some more reliable and less prone to later failure from spell damage is needed. Fading/FD for pet now instead of later is needed as well and not just for FD purposes, since it is possible to flee mobs achieve Out of Combat status and still have mobs in pursuit of warder because of runspeed and pathing issues. Regardless, abandonment of our warder is not something most beastlords would contemplate, except under extreme circumstances. Temporary rear guard, to give a head start on running, since aggro will generally switch back once warder is backed off, occasionally. But almost never certain death. Better now than later, out of date abilities aren't going to be all that effective IMO and fixing it later with AAs instead of getting it right going in will end up taking the place of new AAs and causing us to fall further and further behind. Playing catch up on abilities is no doubt one of the reasons why we end up seeing very few new ones, since others will grab off the newly possible and cry "class defining" given the opportunity.

Safe Fall ... I am pretty sure I tried to make clear that it was something to be looked at as part of an overall "fix" that covered Hide/Sneak/Safe Fall/Tracking/Foraging - since they are inborn skills many animals have. Our mindset should reflect that of a predator, where success is the important factor, not some notion of honor, chivalry or fair play. Our approach to taking down our foes would then involve approaching undetected(sneak) or lying in wait(hide) or attacking from what's perceived to be an improbable direction(safe fall, ie dropping from above, or approaching over dangerous terrain). Tracking both gets you into position to do any of these and avoid being the victim of a predator higher up the food chain. Foraging is something done to find food (and carrion), building material for nests, etc. I think I also asked about some minor skill in safe fall at one point since it was possible to take "falling" damage running downstairs while levitating...which should have conveyed that it wasn't a life or death need, but something to toss in if they were at a loss as to what to do with a couple of remaining AA points while putting together our aa package for an expansion.  Somehow I doubt the Safe Fall AA improves our FD chance by letting us hit the ground looking dead by not yelling "Ouch! $%^&@# sharp rock!" :)
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 06, 2010, 01:40:24 PM
Were you moving when you used it?  Or fighting caster mobs?  (can't seem to get on test to see :/ )

Being part monk BST FD should be based on Monk FD at least, meaning it is not a spell, so we should be able to use it in full run like a monk?

this was posted as a bug on the eqlive forums so maybe it is instant cast

Quote
New Beastlord FD AA(Unknown Name atm) is Insta Cast, but whenever clicking it while running makes it fail every time. Not sure if it's suppose to be this way.

It's either we fall to the ground or get a msg saying "You are no longer Feigning Death, Because you moved."

and apparently
Quote
Imitate Death works the same way.  Stop moving when you use it and it works fine.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 06, 2010, 01:53:34 PM
That ranger spell rangers got in its current form its just a knockback with snare and a 10% chance to Memblur
(as a ranger I dont even know why we got that)

For those that think complaining at this stage achieves nothing.

This has just been changed to a Knockback with a real Root and 100% Memblur.

It has a 1 minute recast time but they also get AA's this round to shorten the recast time. That is one freaking awesome ability.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Tadenea on April 06, 2010, 04:05:07 PM
I did not even realize it was on the list I sent in (sorry for when I said it was not part of the list I sent in) was part of the add on. most suggestions I got from people I just copied and pasted onto the list

Even found where person suggested it http://beastlords.org/index.php?topic=8686.msg92135#msg92135
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Awakening on April 06, 2010, 05:12:43 PM
thats sad lol
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: bradam on April 06, 2010, 05:22:48 PM
For me I guess the real question is did the dev's give us FD as a pulling tool or a way to dump agro mid-fight?  Kinda dosen't work for either atm without some other adjustments to it.  Lower fail rate, added chance to blur etc.    Would nice if it made the warder FD too   :lol:


want to trade safefall for track!
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 06, 2010, 05:27:12 PM
Step 1: Give beastlords 4 deagro AAs.

Step 2: Remove the recast from Frozen Venom.

Problem solved.  Even though we'd probably still get agro.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Razimir on April 06, 2010, 05:33:59 PM
Lets shoot Umlat for asking safe fall and messanger to deliver the request.

-Raz
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: nedoirah on April 06, 2010, 05:55:10 PM
I don't know if it's my bad luck but I was playing with our FD aa and it failed more than 1 out of 3 tries. I think it failed more like 67-87% of the time I played with it. Not something I want to bet my life on. Maybe another day/night of testing will reveal something else.


Were you moving when you used it?  Or fighting caster mobs?  (can't seem to get on test to see :/ )

I tested the success/fail rate standing still at a zoneline with a mob targetted that wandered away. I believe my rate of failures was at least 70%. I'll test it again later tonight.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Awakening on April 06, 2010, 06:01:52 PM
I did a test on Fd was 34 FD's 16 success
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Grbage on April 06, 2010, 06:17:15 PM
I don't know if it's my bad luck but I was playing with our FD aa and it failed more than 1 out of 3 tries. I think it failed more like 67-87% of the time I played with it. Not something I want to bet my life on. Maybe another day/night of testing will reveal something else.

Don't forget the streakiness inherent in EQ. To test the real failure rate you probably need to stand there for a couple days pressing FD every 30 seconds.


Were you moving when you used it?  Or fighting caster mobs?  (can't seem to get on test to see :/ )

I tested the success/fail rate standing still at a zoneline with a mob targetted that wandered away. I believe my rate of failures was at least 70%. I'll test it again later tonight.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Umlat on April 06, 2010, 08:31:57 PM
Lets shoot Umlat for asking safe fall and messanger to deliver the request.

-Raz

So, given the apparent lack of sarcasm, am I supposed to /testcopy and go stand in the arena or something? Or should I just delete him and quit EQ as some form of atonement? <sarcasm>
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Catnip_Inny on April 06, 2010, 08:57:58 PM
bah youll just testcopy and go FD in the arena... that wont work /evilgrin
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 06, 2010, 08:59:28 PM
HA!
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Umlat on April 06, 2010, 11:30:58 PM
bah youll just testcopy and go FD in the arena... that wont work /evilgrin

To be more precise it won't work ~60% of the time - FD will fail the other 40%. Maybe I can try jumping to my death in a couple weeks...
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: nedoirah on April 07, 2010, 02:29:20 AM
I did a test on Fd was 34 FD's 16 success

I'm not the only one seeing a greater than 40% failure rating with this then?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Awakening on April 07, 2010, 05:38:42 PM
I did a test on Fd was 34 FD's 16 success

I'm not the only one seeing a greater than 40% failure rating with this then?

Would be alot better if i did 100 Fd's or even 200 FD's but its not so hawt as is...
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Mazame on April 07, 2010, 06:01:52 PM
You can post your AA bugs on this post so says the AA Dev Elidroth
http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=180&topic_id=161436#2433949

Those that are testing if it not giving the 60% then now would be the time to /bug /post the info your getting they are looking for bugs and if you got the testing to back it let them know.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 08, 2010, 05:09:55 AM
for those that might be interested Catlike Reflexes is 5, 7 and 9 AA's per level.  :roll:

And gives you a max skill of 200. You still have to skill it up though.  :-o
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 08, 2010, 07:50:45 PM
Elidroth wrote:

Drape of Shadows should fade the caster as well and it's 100%. Not sure where you get that it's a 'chance' at all.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=162683

Playing Possum is now named correctly on test.  The AA description is "Your attunement to the animal world allows you to play dead fooling many predators.  Be warned, this will not always fool the most determined aggressor."


On a positive note, my wizard is up to level 56 with 42 AAs.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 08, 2010, 07:52:21 PM
so now its a semi FD to what 1/3 the mobs in game WTF over
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Camikazi on April 08, 2010, 08:19:49 PM
Elidroth wrote:

Drape of Shadows should fade the caster as well and it's 100%. Not sure where you get that it's a 'chance' at all.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=162683

Playing Possum is now named correctly on test.  The AA description is "Your attunement to the animal world allows you to play dead fooling many predators.  Be warned, this will not always fool the most determined aggressor."


On a positive note, my wizard is up to level 56 with 42 AAs.


Ha, we get stuck with this FD which can kill our pets and fails a good amount of the time which probably won't change cause it would be too powerful, yet Mages get a 100% guaranteed aggro drop for them AND pet that is 2 min 30 sec refresh timer.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: kharthai on April 08, 2010, 09:25:12 PM
Heh, boggles the mind sometimes.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: kharthai on April 08, 2010, 11:16:29 PM
Reply from Elidroth as to whether a 100% FD is possible, either by increasing reuse timer or just as a straight increase:

From:    Elidroth
To:    kharthai
Date:    04/08/2010 15:36:03
Subject:    Re:Playing Possum AA

Nope. You're not getting a 100% FD right now.
Elidroth Renato
-----------------------------
Doug Cronkhite
Game Designer
Sony Online Entertainment, LLC
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Camikazi on April 09, 2010, 12:47:34 AM
Reply from Elidroth as to whether a 100% FD is possible, either by increasing reuse timer or just as a straight increase:

From:    Elidroth
To:    kharthai
Date:    04/08/2010 15:36:03
Subject:    Re:Playing Possum AA

Nope. You're not getting a 100% FD right now.
Elidroth Renato
-----------------------------
Doug Cronkhite
Game Designer
Sony Online Entertainment, LLC

Figures, 100% aggro drop ability is fine for every class except for us. Wonder what kind of overpowered, gods of the game do these devs see us as that this ability can't be made useful for us?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Dragonfangs on April 09, 2010, 01:37:20 AM
Reply from Elidroth as to whether a 100% FD is possible, either by increasing reuse timer or just as a straight increase:

From:    Elidroth
To:    kharthai
Date:    04/08/2010 15:36:03
Subject:    Re:Playing Possum AA

Nope. You're not getting a 100% FD right now.
Elidroth Renato
-----------------------------
Doug Cronkhite
Game Designer
Sony Online Entertainment, LLC

One of the classes that needs to be able to drop aggro the most and they give us something that fails more often then it works. Its not that surprising since most of our deaggro abilities are broken in some form or another for deaggro reasons.

I guess on longer fights 180+ where you can fire it around 6 times, as long as 2 of those work aggro shouldn't be a problem. Thats assuming they don't all fail. The percentage for the fail/sucess ratio should be looked at so that it does work atleast 50% of the time.

Having said that I am not sure if i would want it changed to be like the other classes 100%  chance aggro drop AA's. 15 minutes is a fairly long recast so its hard to say which is actually better.

Question becomes do they actually care enough about changing it or do they just want to say they tried and call it a day?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Lathon on April 09, 2010, 03:19:42 AM
Reply from Elidroth as to whether a 100% FD is possible, either by increasing reuse timer or just as a straight increase:

From:    Elidroth
To:    kharthai
Date:    04/08/2010 15:36:03
Subject:    Re:Playing Possum AA

Nope. You're not getting a 100% FD right now.
Elidroth Renato
-----------------------------
Doug Cronkhite
Game Designer
Sony Online Entertainment, LLC

Why??  That is the only question i want answered. If Mages can get it 100% along with pets why can't we? Realistically, Mages sit back and fire off spells and can still outparse us minus their pet but can still have a stronger pet than BL.. pets rather. But, Here we are fighting alongside our pet and ask for a 100% fd for an "oh shit" moment ( personally i could care less if my pet lived or died cause i always have another sommoned) and can't even get that and we are melee fighting up on the mob where we make the most difference... WHY??!! Half tempted to post this on the EQ forum for him to asnwer it cause it's a full mouth full of BS in my eyes
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: kharthai on April 09, 2010, 04:00:27 AM
Why??

/shrug :(
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Mazame on April 09, 2010, 06:42:46 AM
Nope. You're not getting a 100% FD right now.
Elidroth Renato



Like he said in beta he wants to give lines that can be improved on down the road. FD is big for us to get and making it 100% probly could not get approved and would cause a lot of crap from other classes. yet slipping it in as a weaker version and getting it set then adding to and improving it down the road, i bet was what he was thinking. 
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 09, 2010, 06:43:33 AM
nm, not worth it
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Camikazi on April 09, 2010, 08:26:21 AM
Nope. You're not getting a 100% FD right now.
Elidroth Renato



Like he said in beta he wants to give lines that can be improved on down the road. FD is big for us to get and making it 100% probly could not get approved and would cause a lot of crap from other classes. yet slipping it in as a weaker version and getting it set then adding to and improving it down the road, i bet was what he was thinking. 

So we have to spend a lot of AAs, AND wait a lot of time to get something Mages got now in one shot, and ours STILL won't help save our pets... yea, that makes a lot of sense.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: k9wazere on April 09, 2010, 10:09:26 AM
Roll on FFXIV. I can't be arsed to re-roll in EQ. Beast was/is my class, if they're going to keep screwing us there's no reason to play any other class.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: k9wazere on April 09, 2010, 12:07:32 PM
To give a more useful response, consider this...

In the beginning, and for a long, long time afterwards, mage pets were expendable. "Chaining" pets was common. They didn't even zone with you. Same really with necro pets. A necro would FD without any thought for his expendable minion. Which fitted the class very well.

Along came Beastlords, and we were different. Our pets were our constant companions. They zoned with us, they fought alongside us, and we had the means to keep them alive very well. They were great tanks to boot.

Now the tables are totally reversed, which indicates to me a complete lack of direction or understanding of the class in general.

Now mages have pets which they can keep alive indefinitely with this new 100% fade for both pet and mage.

Meanwhile, our "constant companions" now need re-summoning every time the group gets an add and the tank is a bit slow at getting aggro. Ooops, dead warder.

And then we get given an ability which guarantees our warder dies if we get lucky and manage to save ourselves.

*What happened* to the class descriptions?

Please reconsider this. Allow me to save my warder, not sacrifice him.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sharrien on April 09, 2010, 01:35:27 PM
Reply from Elidroth as to whether a 100% FD is possible, either by increasing reuse timer or just as a straight increase:

From:    Elidroth
To:    kharthai
Date:    04/08/2010 15:36:03
Subject:    Re:Playing Possum AA

Nope. You're not getting a 100% FD right now.
Elidroth Renato
-----------------------------
Doug Cronkhite
Game Designer
Sony Online Entertainment, LLC

One of the classes that needs to be able to drop aggro the most and they give us something that fails more often then it works. Its not that surprising since most of our deaggro abilities are broken in some form or another for deaggro reasons.

I guess on longer fights 180+ where you can fire it around 6 times, as long as 2 of those work aggro shouldn't be a problem. Thats assuming they don't all fail. The percentage for the fail/sucess ratio should be looked at so that it does work atleast 50% of the time.

Having said that I am not sure if i would want it changed to be like the other classes 100%  chance aggro drop AA's. 15 minutes is a fairly long recast so its hard to say which is actually better.

Question becomes do they actually care enough about changing it or do they just want to say they tried and call it a day?

I think we should stop trying to look at FD as a de-aggro tool.  How is FD (when it succeeds) much different from just backing out of melee range?  We're either laying on our backs not doing dps or we're out of range not doing any there either, but at least from out of melee range we can still cast Yowl, toss a heal, renew Dragonscale or whatever...anything besides just sitting there like a used rubber on the floor.  IF we want Possum to be primarily a de-aggro tool, it has to have some component to remove aggro besides just laying on the ground.  I am not at all in favor of a deaggro tool that makes us stop doing any dps for it to work.  Treating this as our big aggro-reducing tool will mean that we won't get anything better.

In my opinion Possum should be an escape and pulling ability.  If we're stuck with it, we should ask for AAs to improve it's effectiveness.  We should get access to all, or at least most of them that are now available to other classes all at once just like when we got the Gift of Mana series.

I really didn't want FD at all, would rather leave that for the monks, but since it's a done deal, I want to make sure that it is not considered our shiny new de-aggro tool for use during combat.  Pass to close to see-invis and need to escape or FD during a gorup wipe, yes.  Flop over and over during a fight and lose dps because the tank can't keep aggro?  No way, I can just click off haste and mem one less nuke and get the same aggro reduction.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Camikazi on April 09, 2010, 01:40:55 PM
I think we should stop trying to look at FD as a de-aggro tool.  How is FD (when it succeeds) much different from just backing out of melee range?  We're either laying on our backs not doing dps or we're out of range not doing any there either, but at least from out of melee range we can still cast Yowl, toss a heal, renew Dragonscale or whatever...anything besides just sitting there like a used rubber on the floor.  IF we want Possum to be primarily a de-aggro tool, it has to have some component to remove aggro besides just laying on the ground.  I am not at all in favor of a deaggro tool that makes us stop doing any dps for it to work.  Treating this as our big aggro-reducing tool will mean that we won't get anything better.

In my opinion Possum should be an escape and pulling ability.  If we're stuck with it, we should ask for AAs to improve it's effectiveness.  We should get access to all, or at least most of them that are now available to other classes all at once just like when we got the Gift of Mana series.

I really didn't want FD at all, would rather leave that for the monks, but since it's a done deal, I want to make sure that it is not considered our shiny new de-aggro tool for use during combat.  Pass to close to see-invis and need to escape or FD during a gorup wipe, yes.  Flop over and over during a fight and lose dps because the tank can't keep aggro?  No way, I can just click off haste and mem one less nuke and get the same aggro reduction.

FD, like Rogue Evade, will drop you on the aggro list a lot faster and much lower then backing out will, that is why you will see Monks hitting FD and instantly getting up and never show up on HoTT, FD and backing out are not the same at all. But that dropping of aggro only works if it doesn't fail :P
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Grbage on April 09, 2010, 02:13:43 PM
To give a more useful response, consider this...

In the beginning, and for a long, long time afterwards, mage pets were expendable. "Chaining" pets was common. They didn't even zone with you. Same really with necro pets. A necro would FD without any thought for his expendable minion. Which fitted the class very well.

Along came Beastlords, and we were different. Our pets were our constant companions. They zoned with us, they fought alongside us, and we had the means to keep them alive very well. They were great tanks to boot.

Now the tables are totally reversed, which indicates to me a complete lack of direction or understanding of the class in general.

Now mages have pets which they can keep alive indefinitely with this new 100% fade for both pet and mage.

Meanwhile, our "constant companions" now need re-summoning every time the group gets an add and the tank is a bit slow at getting aggro. Ooops, dead warder.

And then we get given an ability which guarantees our warder dies if we get lucky and manage to save ourselves.

*What happened* to the class descriptions?

Please reconsider this. Allow me to save my warder, not sacrifice him.

Actually the class has changed quite a bit from inception and our pets also did not originally zone with us just like other pet classes. Matter of fact we used to summon a very low level, weak pet and the buffs leveled the warder to where it was suppose to be. This caused me quite a few deaths back in the day, invis was unreliable but I kept not wanting to take the time to get up and buff a new pet when crossing multiple zones. Mobs I could handle with the pet would tear me a new one withotu.

Back to playing possum. Ok, we have definitive word that at this time they will not increase the fail rate. I'm going to guess new FD aa's next expansion which really isn't all that far away. Soo, we need to concentrate right now on making one of our other deagro tools more useable. The question is, do we concentrate on the new one or try and get them to scrap it and make our current ones better suited for the job?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sharrien on April 09, 2010, 03:20:04 PM
Stuff....

FD, like Rogue Evade, will drop you on the aggro list a lot faster and much lower then backing out will, that is why you will see Monks hitting FD and instantly getting up and never show up on HoTT, FD and backing out are not the same at all. But that dropping of aggro only works if it doesn't fail :P

My understanding of FD seems flawed.  I thought when you stand up, you are right back where you started aggro-wise.  Does FD in fact wipe your aggro even after you stand up?

I don't see our monks flopping much during raids, I do see them a lot on HoTT when things start heading for the crapper.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Camikazi on April 09, 2010, 05:21:58 PM
Stuff....

FD, like Rogue Evade, will drop you on the aggro list a lot faster and much lower then backing out will, that is why you will see Monks hitting FD and instantly getting up and never show up on HoTT, FD and backing out are not the same at all. But that dropping of aggro only works if it doesn't fail :P

My understanding of FD seems flawed.  I thought when you stand up, you are right back where you started aggro-wise.  Does FD in fact wipe your aggro even after you stand up?

I don't see our monks flopping much during raids, I do see them a lot on HoTT when things start heading for the crapper.
Ask any good necro if FD drops you on the aggro list or not :)
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: bradam on April 09, 2010, 05:38:34 PM
Nope. You're not getting a 100% FD right now.
Elidroth Renato



Like he said in beta he wants to give lines that can be improved on down the road. FD is big for us to get and making it 100% probly could not get approved and would cause a lot of crap from other classes. yet slipping it in as a weaker version and getting it set then adding to and improving it down the road, i bet was what he was thinking. 

So whats the aa's mages will get to improve thiers I wonder.. 
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: k9wazere on April 09, 2010, 06:46:43 PM
It's been increased to 80% chance now.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Blarp on April 09, 2010, 07:30:33 PM
Actually.. the short answer is I gave you some useful stuff, a little fluff (admittedly the Safe Fall AA was quick and easy), and I decided to save more of your requests for later development. Keep in mind, at the time we weren't even allowed to admit there was a new expansion in the works.

Also, there are some things in that list that shouldn't be AA's at all. In the past there has been far too much blurring of the lines between spells and AA's and I'm determined to do that as little as possible.

FWIW.. I've upped the success chance on Playing Possum to 80% as well as removed the cast time on Chameleon Strike.

Message edited by Elidroth on 04/09/2010 11:16:14.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 09, 2010, 09:41:28 PM
FWIW.. I've upped the success chance on Playing Possum to 80% as well as removed the cast time on Chameleon Strike.

Message edited by Elidroth on 04/09/2010 11:16:14.

Thats pretty acceptable to me. Now depending on how many mobs see through a succesful fd that could be very decent.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Dragonfangs on April 10, 2010, 01:13:50 AM
FWIW.. I've upped the success chance on Playing Possum to 80% as well as removed the cast time on Chameleon Strike.

Message edited by Elidroth on 04/09/2010 11:16:14.

Thats pretty acceptable to me. Now depending on how many mobs see through a succesful fd that could be very decent.

You don't need to have a mob "forget about you" for the aggro wipe. All that message means is that your all the way off of it. Its handy to be share, but as a deaggro tool weither its all wiped to that point, or if you wipe 90% aggro to the point you cast it, its all the same for dps. Pulling is another story, that does depend on the "forget about you" message. I'd much rather keep it simple for deaggro means then get it turned into a pulling tool.

It just seems odd to have 4 deaggro skills, sure you can tie them all into one hotkey, but it seems like they are eating up aa's that could be more worthwhile if they did it correctly to start with. But thats just what I am thinking on the matter
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 10, 2010, 02:29:51 AM
FWIW.. I've upped the success chance on Playing Possum to 80% as well as removed the cast time on Chameleon Strike.

Message edited by Elidroth on 04/09/2010 11:16:14.

Thats pretty acceptable to me. Now depending on how many mobs see through a succesful fd that could be very decent.

You don't need to have a mob "forget about you" for the aggro wipe. All that message means is that your all the way off of it.
That wasn't what I was talking about. If a mob sees through a successful cast as possum you might as well have gotten the fallen to the ground message.

It could be a very badly worded description but mobs used to see through successful casts of necro's Feign Death at higher levels. Which is why they lobbied so hard for Death Peace, Feign Death pretty much became useless.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Nusa on April 10, 2010, 03:58:35 AM
From this thread: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?&topic_id=162683 (http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?&topic_id=162683)
Quote
Elidroth wrote:

Quote
bumkus wrote:

          Can you also change the bst FD to drop aggro on bst warders, so we don't lose pet if we also use it for pulls?
   

     Nope. BST FD is designed (on purpose) to be an escape plan, not a pulling tool.

And I think the entirely of Eldroth's post is worth mentioning here:
Quote
Actually.. the short answer is I gave you some useful stuff, a little fluff (admittedly the Safe Fall AA was quick and easy), and I decided to save more of your requests for later development. Keep in mind, at the time we weren't even allowed to admit there was a new expansion in the works.

Also, there are some things in that list that shouldn't be AA's at all. In the past there has been far too much blurring of the lines between spells and AA's and I'm determined to do that as little as possible.

FWIW.. I've upped the success chance on Playing Possum to 80% as well as removed the cast time on Chameleon Strike.

Message edited by Elidroth on 04/09/2010 11:16:14.

Necro's wanted a better one for pulling, plain and simple...but that's not the stated intent for us. We should be happy for the moment and revisit it after we've learned how to use it creatively.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 10, 2010, 04:32:01 AM
Necro's wanted a better one for pulling, plain and simple...but that's not the stated intent for us. We should be happy for the moment and revisit it after we've learned how to use it creatively.

Again that is not totally correct Necros wanted Death Peace because SK's had it and Feign Death had reached the state where it was seen through about 80% of the time by trash mobs so you can imagine what raid mobs where like. It was wanted for pulling and as an escape tool and a way to drop aggro.

You basically hit level 55 from memory and the vast majority of mobs failed to believe you were dead even on a successful cast.

We shall see how this same mechanism impacts on our fd but I for one am happy for the changes as it makes it a much more reliable escape plan.

As for Playing Possum affecting the pet on pulls, whilst I have very little interest in this I am pretty certain Pet Hold and Focus would do the job just as well.

Love the changes to CS also.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Lathon on April 10, 2010, 04:53:58 AM
Quote
Actually.. the short answer is I gave you some useful stuff, a little fluff (admittedly the Safe Fall AA was quick and easy), and I decided to save more of your requests for later development. Keep in mind, at the time we weren't even allowed to admit there was a new expansion in the works.

Also, there are some things in that list that shouldn't be AA's at all. In the past there has been far too much blurring of the lines between spells and AA's and I'm determined to do that as little as possible.

FWIW.. I've upped the success chance on Playing Possum to 80% as well as removed the cast time on Chameleon Strike.

Message edited by Elidroth on 04/09/2010 11:16:14.

The fact that He has changed the success rate, drop the cast timer on CS and admits to wanting our other ideas for the next expansion is a step in the right direction for our class as a whole. The thing we have been wanting is a good way to decrease aggro without 10 hotkeys used up with failed results. basically what i can see doing is popping possum, /stand and if it doesn't work i can hit CS and asp ( or smash or raven.. i preffer asp) until i get a refresh and go from there.. will take some tweaking but it's all doable, and better than where we started.

Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: nedoirah on April 10, 2010, 02:52:53 PM
I'm on the Test server right now playing with playing possum. I've made notes of everything so far.
Playing Possum: End cost 300 end
Success/fail rate affected by movement. I tried it while walking and got a failure message about moving and no longer feigning.

All my tests thus far are at the zone in in FoS standing still not in combat w/ a scaled wolf con immediately after clicking the ability.

Out of 25 fast checks:
11 were failures
14 succuesses
(edit)
A second set of 25 clicks
10 were failures
15 successes
I'm going to continue testing this aa and the success/fail rate. I'll do combat testing later to see if the success rating changes.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: nedoirah on April 10, 2010, 03:56:14 PM
I looked around and didn't find the alt activate # for playing possum. I checked it on Test and it's 11073.

I've done a bunch more clicks on playing possum.

out of 100 clicks
41 failures
59 successes

This includes the numbers from my previous post.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Bumkus on April 10, 2010, 04:58:46 PM
I looked around and didn't find the alt activate # for playing possum. I checked it on Test and it's 11073.

I've done a bunch more clicks on playing possum.

out of 100 clicks
41 failures
59 successes

This includes the numbers from my previous post.

he bumped success rate from 60% to 80%.  apparently the change had not filtered through by time you did your testing
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Inphared on April 10, 2010, 06:46:31 PM
I looked around and didn't find the alt activate # for playing possum. I checked it on Test and it's 11073.

I've done a bunch more clicks on playing possum.

out of 100 clicks
41 failures
59 successes

This includes the numbers from my previous post.

Oddly enough, the 60% success rate is reflected amazingly well in that test. At least it works properly and isn't broken.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Nusa on April 10, 2010, 07:53:29 PM
When Eldroth says he changed something, it doesn't necessarily mean it's on test yet. He mentions that fact occasionally, but usually doesn't.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: k9wazere on April 10, 2010, 08:16:00 PM
Well, it's a start, I guess.

I'm still not buying UF atm :p Every time I hear someone talk about the group game on the SOE forums it's been to say, "been camping this item for 16 hours solid and not seen a named yet"...

Personally, I liked SoD. Even tho it wasn't the best xpac for bsts, ever, you could get things done in a reasonable amount of time. What I consider reasonable, anyhow.

So... if the next xpac has some decent Bst loving, and isn't based on the idea that 1 item = 72 hours camping, there might be something to look forward to.

I guess that's stlightly OT, tho :p
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: nedoirah on April 10, 2010, 09:40:23 PM
I looked around and didn't find the alt activate # for playing possum. I checked it on Test and it's 11073.

I've done a bunch more clicks on playing possum.

out of 100 clicks
41 failures
59 successes

This includes the numbers from my previous post.

he bumped success rate from 60% to 80%.  apparently the change had not filtered through by time you did your testing

Actually that was done after the change was supposed to have been made. So I don't know now.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 10, 2010, 10:14:17 PM
I looked around and didn't find the alt activate # for playing possum. I checked it on Test and it's 11073.

I've done a bunch more clicks on playing possum.

out of 100 clicks
41 failures
59 successes

This includes the numbers from my previous post.

he bumped success rate from 60% to 80%.  apparently the change had not filtered through by time you did your testing

Actually that was done after the change was supposed to have been made. So I don't know now.

There seems to be a bit of confusion with their terminology. When they say the changes have been made what they mean is that the changes have been made but are not on test yet. Apparently even when they say the changes are on test it doesn't actually mean they are on the test server, just that they are ready to go onto the test server.

They posted about it in the mage thread I think because they kept saying those changes where on test and the mages where saying they were not.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: bobokatt1970 on April 11, 2010, 12:54:41 PM
The increase to 80% is great news.  The thought of having to fall out of combat and lose DPS is not.  Thus far I have done rather well, when I do grab agro in a raid situation, by using Roar and Bite.  The combination of those 2 still provides us with continuous DPS, due to the damage portion, whist reducing hate.  For most circumstances, it a great combo and works. I am actually looking forward MORE to Chameleon Strike than this FD.  It would be nice to just have one really that works as well rather then 3 spread out, but I'll take it.

I might be completely off, but how long does the FD take to cast, how long do you need to stay down? If this is a quick down/quick up, I guess not so bad and them my concerns are unfounded. I would hate to have to use this while EF and Glymp are running or BA etc., however some DPS is better than a dead BST and no DPS.

 
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 11, 2010, 01:38:27 PM
I might be completely off, but how long does the FD take to cast, how long do you need to stay down? If this is a quick down/quick up, I guess not so bad and them my concerns are unfounded. I would hate to have to use this while EF and Glymp are running or BA etc., however some DPS is better than a dead BST and no DPS.

Possum is basically an instant cast (but cant be cast on the run). If your using it just to lower yourself on the aggro list then up and down is all you need. To completely remove yourself from the aggro list is up to 2 mins from memory.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: kharthai on April 11, 2010, 02:31:55 PM
To completely remove yourself from the aggro list is up to 2 mins from memory.

Changed it awhile back, assuming it works like normal FD, it'll be 1 minute now.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: bradam on April 11, 2010, 06:01:24 PM
I looked around and didn't find the alt activate # for playing possum. I checked it on Test and it's 11073.

I've done a bunch more clicks on playing possum.

out of 100 clicks
41 failures
59 successes

This includes the numbers from my previous post.
I looked around and didn't find the alt activate # for playing possum. I checked it on Test and it's 11073.

I've done a bunch more clicks on playing possum.

out of 100 clicks
41 failures
59 successes

This includes the numbers from my previous post.

How many mobs did you have on you?  I got 12 success out of 20 on a single guard mob at pofire tables,  but with 3 guards chasing me i got 3 success's out of 20 tries.   I made a big ole train for fun to try 10+ mobs but somehow managed to agro that big fabled spider raid mob and had 0 of 8-9 triese before i gave up and slugged a gate potion.

Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 11, 2010, 09:16:44 PM
How many mobs did you have on you?  I got 12 success out of 20 on a single guard mob at pofire tables,  but with 3 guards chasing me i got 3 success's out of 20 tries.   I made a big ole train for fun to try 10+ mobs but somehow managed to agro that big fabled spider raid mob and had 0 of 8-9 triese before i gave up and slugged a gate potion.
Sounds like the Devs have found a nice workaround for it to be used reasonably as a de aggro tool but very unreliable as a pulling tool.

Thanks for that Kharthai, I am not long back from a decent break. I find the new window that came in with UF really handy for splitting.  8-)
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: nedoirah on April 12, 2010, 12:48:55 AM

All my tests thus far are at the zone in in FoS standing still not in combat w/ a scaled wolf con immediately after clicking the ability.



How many mobs did you have on you?  I got 12 success out of 20 on a single guard mob at pofire tables,  but with 3 guards chasing me i got 3 success's out of 20 tries.   I made a big ole train for fun to try 10+ mobs but somehow managed to agro that big fabled spider raid mob and had 0 of 8-9 triese before i gave up and slugged a gate potion.


None. I was doing a standard click and check success test. I was trying to figure out what the base success/fail rate was. I also stated in a post previously that I was going to do in combat testing later and post back.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: k9wazere on April 12, 2010, 09:52:26 AM
How many mobs did you have on you?  I got 12 success out of 20 on a single guard mob at pofire tables,  but with 3 guards chasing me i got 3 success's out of 20 tries.   I made a big ole train for fun to try 10+ mobs but somehow managed to agro that big fabled spider raid mob and had 0 of 8-9 triese before i gave up and slugged a gate potion.
Sounds like the Devs have found a nice workaround for it to be used reasonably as a de aggro tool but very unreliable as a pulling tool.

In that case we're now the only DPS class without a *working* escape mechanism, aren't we?

Let's not forget, people, mages just got FADE. 100% chance of dropping all aggro, ALWAYS WORKS, they have instant cast invis to go with it. Oh and it hits their PET TOO.

And if we accept an ability that doesn't work when mobs hate you, can been "seen through" by some mobs anyway... haha. Ahahahaha. You guys, seriously. Seriously, you guys. You going to take this and keep smiling?

Why haven't we all re-rolled as mages yet?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Nusa on April 12, 2010, 10:13:52 AM
Troll much?  You conveniently fail to mention the little fact mages will have to wait 7.5 minutes between uses.

In any case, reeking of class jealousy and spouting sarcasm is a rather bad way to approach the devs. But you're right, if you want to be a mage, be a mage.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: k9wazere on April 12, 2010, 11:14:50 AM
Yeah, I'd rather have a guaranteed success every 7.5 minutes, thanks. By the time the tank has got his end back, been rebuffed, etc, you only have a couple minutes to wait before the fade is available again.

What good is a 30 sec FD, if, as the poster above me said, it failed 8 times in a row in PoF, with 3 mobs on him?

I'll take the fade, thanks.

Sure, I'm a troll, because when a weak class gets a weak ability, and a strong class gets a great ability, something seems wrong.

[edit: I should also add that other classes have succeeded in their agendas largely through being vocal and complaining a lot. By all means use the "stop whining" argument, and see how much attention we get.]

[2nd edit: there wouldn't *be* class jealously if things weren't so far out of whack. As a group player/non-raider, you want to see the disparity between mages and bsts. night and day.]
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Nusa on April 12, 2010, 01:28:11 PM
There's a right way and a wrong way to be vocal. I don't really care what you have to say if you can't remain civil while saying it.

I think FD is going to be more powerful than you think it is. You just have to learn the right way to use it. I'll find out for sure after it's live...I'm not wasting my time testing old data on test.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Grbage on April 12, 2010, 02:25:13 PM
Yeah, I'd rather have a guaranteed success every 7.5 minutes, thanks. By the time the tank has got his end back, been rebuffed, etc, you only have a couple minutes to wait before the fade is available again.

What good is a 30 sec FD, if, as the poster above me said, it failed 8 times in a row in PoF, with 3 mobs on him?

I'll take the fade, thanks.

Sure, I'm a troll, because when a weak class gets a weak ability, and a strong class gets a great ability, something seems wrong.

[edit: I should also add that other classes have succeeded in their agendas largely through being vocal and complaining a lot. By all means use the "stop whining" argument, and see how much attention we get.]

[2nd edit: there wouldn't *be* class jealously if things weren't so far out of whack. As a group player/non-raider, you want to see the disparity between mages and bsts. night and day.]

1. It has been raised to 80% but might not be pushed to test yet, we'll have to see about that.
2. 80% success chance on a short timer is a lot better then 100% on 7.5min timer for bst. Otherwise, it helps the group beast dps with lesser agro tanks on every pull and helps raid bst on raid targets not die right after the MT. Mages don't often pull agro so a 7.5 min timer is just dandy for them.
3. Thank the devs for giving you a whole nother line to spend aa's on in upcoming expansions.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: k9wazere on April 12, 2010, 02:44:36 PM

How many mobs did you have on you?  I got 12 success out of 20 on a single guard mob at pofire tables,  but with 3 guards chasing me i got 3 success's out of 20 tries.   I made a big ole train for fun to try 10+ mobs but somehow managed to agro that big fabled spider raid mob and had 0 of 8-9 triese before i gave up and slugged a gate potion.


Just wanted to make sure you'd read this guy's post. We assume this was based on the 60% success chance FD.

12/20 with one mob.
3/20 with 3.
0/8 with 10.

So what exactly does this FD let us escape? Most times when I die it's from bad pulls. Multiple mobs.

Exactly the time when, according to these numbers, FD will fail. An extra 20% isn't going to fundamentally change the way the AA works, is it. So I assume it's still going to fail with multiple mobs.

This is what I'm trying to understand, here.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Dragonfangs on April 12, 2010, 04:04:40 PM
Just wanted to make sure you'd read this guy's post. We assume this was based on the 60% success chance FD.

12/20 with one mob.
3/20 with 3.
0/8 with 10.

So what exactly does this FD let us escape? Most times when I die it's from bad pulls. Multiple mobs.

Exactly the time when, according to these numbers, FD will fail. An extra 20% isn't going to fundamentally change the way the AA works, is it. So I assume it's still going to fail with multiple mobs.

This is what I'm trying to understand, here.


Its a deaggro tool, not a pulling tool. That is the problem you are having with understanding it seems. Beastlords aren't supposed to be pullers, nor are rangers look at what happened to their HA when the devs caught wind of it still being "overpowered" during UF beta.

The guy that did this test, i am assuming here, did it just to see the rates of having more then one mob hitting you would be. Largely FD does stop a mob in the middle of an attack so if its mid combat round for a mob or mid cast it will still hit you, therefore casuging FD to "break". By large the "proof" is biase because of what was trying to be achieved at that time.

You can still FD on a bad pull and live thats what the numbers are telling you as long you don't engage the mobs and try tanking them while trying to do so. If the 80% success rate per cast is true when it goes live it leaves a realitively small gap for failing. 4/5 success ratio is by far better then 3/5 success ratio that most of these tests were run with.

There shouldn't be a need for us to have escape, even most of the classes that have it shouldn't. Having a need for a "Oh what the fuck did I just do" button only makes the class seem fairly stupid for not having thought of a better way. The only "escape" aa thats fairly well designed is that for the zerker and that is only because it leaves them stunned after using it. The stun should be longer so its not used as a bards fade is, but they still take a hit to their dps for using it. Bst Deaggro is based it seems at cutting it down before it gets to large but none of it really seemed to be working like it should be.


Once you get past it not being a pulling tool. Think this question over. Do you use Roar of Thunder or asp/raven/smash in a way like this?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: bradam on April 12, 2010, 04:12:25 PM
Bad thing is to get a really semi accurate fail/success % I'd have to run atleast a 100 tries, and to get a solid margin of error I'd have to do 1000+ tests.   And I'm far to lazy to do that many   :lol:

I don't really like playing on test much as I tend to get bored rather quickly, once this goes live tho I'm sure we'll figure out some better numbers.  

In after thought with my small sample size on the 10+ mobs I did have that annoying fabled spider add in somewhere, not sure if "raid" namers such as that fabled spider will always see through FD causing a fail anyways?  


On a side note I did manage to use it on the run, by run i mean just holding down the up arrow, and it worked sometimes.  Other times I still flopped but got the fd failed cause you moved message so it seems it's not a 100% fail if your running.

Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: k9wazere on April 12, 2010, 04:19:08 PM
Its a deaggro tool, not a pulling tool. That is the problem you are having with understanding it seems. Beastlords aren't supposed to be pullers...
Quote from: Elidroth
The warder will not be included this pass because I don't want this ability to be used as a pulling tool. It's designed as an escape plan only.

De-aggro tool or escape plan? Who is right?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Bumkus on April 12, 2010, 05:06:12 PM
Its a deaggro tool, not a pulling tool. That is the problem you are having with understanding it seems. Beastlords aren't supposed to be pullers...
Quote from: Elidroth
The warder will not be included this pass because I don't want this ability to be used as a pulling tool. It's designed as an escape plan only.

De-aggro tool or escape plan? Who is right?

I call it 6 parts de-aggro, 3 parts escape and 1 part pulling tool.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 12, 2010, 05:20:49 PM
Bumkus is most right, but I'd say 6-2-2, or maybe 5-2-3.  Designing something a certain way doesn't mean it will end up like that in practice.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: wildwaters on April 12, 2010, 05:34:12 PM
I forsee 'tuning' and no further upgrades if this gets used as a pulling tool instead of a deaggro tool. It seems the devs are making it more of a habit to implement things poorly and then go back and nerf them rather than doing it properly to begin with and that makes this sort of tool a potential thorn. Or so it seems to me.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: k9wazere on April 12, 2010, 05:37:34 PM
If it is a de-aggro tool, I agree that it is totally the wrong implementation. It's like calling Gate a de-aggro tool. Sure, that works, but it's not the best way of losing aggro, especially if you're the healer :p
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Bumkus on April 12, 2010, 05:44:51 PM
Bumkus is most right, but I'd say 6-2-2, or maybe 5-2-3.  Designing something a certain way doesn't mean it will end up like that in practice.

The reason I only gave it a 1 for pulling is because 1) we lose our warder if we use it to separate a mob from the pack and 2) because we need to stay down for a minute to wait for aggro to clear.

Basically it's ok for tag team pulling with a box or another player, but it's not great for pulling solo.

Mage fade will have a lot more flexibility.  For comparison, I'd rank theirs at a 3 for pulling.

On the ohter hand I think FD makes a better escape than Fade since we can stay down more and avoid ae and aggro during raid wipes.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Camikazi on April 12, 2010, 05:47:31 PM
Its a deaggro tool, not a pulling tool. That is the problem you are having with understanding it seems. Beastlords aren't supposed to be pullers...
Quote from: Elidroth
The warder will not be included this pass because I don't want this ability to be used as a pulling tool. It's designed as an escape plan only.

De-aggro tool or escape plan? Who is right?

You'd think if it was an escape tool it would be 100% and longer recast, like all other escape tool AAs. As it is, this AA is de-aggro and part pulling, not an escape plan unless it is guaranteed to work, which it is not.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Catnip_Inny on April 12, 2010, 05:52:43 PM
I have to agree, it was said by the DEVS that they wanted us to have an escape ability... if we cant escape for shit unless we are 1 on 1 with a mob... then its not so useful for the function they see it being used for...

honestly having this for deaggro is almost useless i think... when i bind chameleon strike with asp, i suspect my aggro issues will be just fine considering i can also use Roar and have maxed SCS....

that is of course if bradam is accurate :)
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Bumkus on April 12, 2010, 06:07:27 PM
I forsee 'tuning' and no further upgrades if this gets used as a pulling tool instead of a deaggro tool. It seems the devs are making it more of a habit to implement things poorly and then go back and nerf them rather than doing it properly to begin with and that makes this sort of tool a potential thorn. Or so it seems to me.
Wildwaters, you play an SK right?  So you might be more familiar with exactly how FD applies to pulling.  From what I gather, FD by itself is more a means to recover from a bad pull, as opposed to being the basis of the pull.

For example monks pull with mez, not FD.  Bards pull with Fade I guess.  A number of classes used DC pulling till it was recently fixed.  Even this was a combination of FD + another ability.

Do you see FD alone as a threat to the pulling classes?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: k9wazere on April 12, 2010, 07:07:10 PM
Anything other than trivial splitting and you need a secondary ability, such as snare, root, mez, lull.

I guess we could do it with pet snare, but you'd have to keep sacrificing pets all the time.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Bumkus on April 12, 2010, 07:28:41 PM
Anything other than trivial splitting and you need a secondary ability, such as snare, root, mez, lull.

I guess we could do it with pet snare, but you'd have to keep sacrificing pets all the time.

I thought about pet snare, but it would be worn off by the time aggro cleared from FD.  I don't think that will add much for solo pulling.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Mazame on April 12, 2010, 07:51:48 PM
mez, Lull, snare . root. pacify are the key tools of pulling FD is to clear the aggro after the mob has been trapped so that other mobs walk back.


Pocket pet make a new pet and buff him with HoS / block like.

pull group of mobs, tab over and pet pet on one having it taunt. kite the others and when FD procs with out fail then /dismiss pet. the one your pet was fighting will be snared and away from the other mobs  the ones you kited will walk back. when they return to there spawn point  you can stand and the one your pet was on will come solo.

ya not the best way to pull but will work if your soloing.

the other trick is to use range item to tag / FD stand  tag FD untill you split one off .. again with lots of FD fails not a good way to pull.


the Dev said they didn't want us to use it to pull. and I find max range with slow I can pull most things that are spaced right. and body pull works well. and so I never need FD to pull before.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: wildwaters on April 12, 2010, 07:58:02 PM
I forsee 'tuning' and no further upgrades if this gets used as a pulling tool instead of a deaggro tool. It seems the devs are making it more of a habit to implement things poorly and then go back and nerf them rather than doing it properly to begin with and that makes this sort of tool a potential thorn. Or so it seems to me.
Wildwaters, you play an SK right?  So you might be more familiar with exactly how FD applies to pulling.  From what I gather, FD by itself is more a means to recover from a bad pull, as opposed to being the basis of the pull.

For example monks pull with mez, not FD.  Bards pull with Fade I guess.  A number of classes used DC pulling till it was recently fixed.  Even this was a combination of FD + another ability.

Do you see FD alone as a threat to the pulling classes?

I have been thinking about this more lately then when it was first anounced. I would say the 'threat' is more to the beastlord than the pulling classes.

First off it wasn't intended as a pulling tool, Eldiroth made that clear. The problem is once you figure out a way to use it that way and it becomes wide spread then you open the ability to stagnation or out right nerfing. The problem with that being that a stagnant ability is a weak ability and having so many deaggro tools may block you from gaining a truly useful one or getting the upgrades you need to existing abilities.

Do I see this as a pulling tool and a threat to pullers? No I do not. I doubt the other classes do but I'll lay you nickles to pickles and popsicles that monks will find a reason to complain about it to get themsleves powered up or beastlords powered down.

On the pullling side of things I think sks and monks do it very differently. Where FD might be a means to recovery for monks it is more important for sks and necros who use the FD mechanism is an integral part of the pulling strategy.
Basically snare lasts longer than it takes aggro to fade. So you snare and run far enough away that the snared mob will reach a distance from it's original spawn point that will allow it to be pulled single and then you FD. So after aggro clears all the mobs path back and your mob just stands there looking stupid until you tag and pull it.

There is also one other thing to note. With the new extended target window and a little patience you can pull a mob single without snaring it. It seems to me that they totally changed the way that aggro loss works... it used to be the mob you hit was the first to fade, now it is the last to fade, but actually for snare pulling that makes it easier to split things. I won't bother explaining cause the post is getting long.

Anyway, FD as a pull tool will be slow and inefficient, as deaggro... well it will be effective but it will impact your dps. Those lost melee rounds and nuke or two while you are down will add up over a fight where you need to lose aggro more than once.

In my opinion FD is a poorly thought out deaggro option and is not an escape option unless you have corresponding ranks in willful death type aa's which opens a whole nother can of worms.

Look at how sks/necros use it for deaggro. We dot, dot, dot, nuke, get aggro and fd for a few seconds. The thing is neither class dpses the way a beast does. We don't have to cast as much or hit as many aggro inducing abilities to do our jobs. If we get aggro we can FD for a few seconds and it won't impact our performance at all. Monks, being melee dps, are impacted when they have to fd to lose aggro. That is why some of the parse whores will wait for the tank to taunt rather than fd. The time they are down will effect thier dps plain and simple.

So to sum up

1) no, fd is not a threat to other pullers
2) it can probably be used and probably shouldn't be used to pull
3) it is a so so deaggro ability
4) it is a weak escape ability
5) it has the potential to cause a lot of grief in terms of stagnation, and some classes will likely never let your class forget you have it.
6) beastlord dps is done in such a way that Fd will have an impact on it. It may not be huge but it will be there.

I don't think that pulling is an issue here but it will likely have an impact on the discussion.

The issue is how many poor deaggro abilities do you want? And do you want deaggro abilities that impact your dps in any manner no matter how small it may be? /shrugs these are just my thoughts.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Zunar on April 12, 2010, 08:17:42 PM
Well...there's plenty of ways to pull already without FD, so I for one don't care much about the possibility to use this for pulling at all.

berserkers can pull..just throw a snare axe on desired mob and fade...
rangers have several ways with roots, snares and cover tracks....
clerics can root and atone the adds or pacify add and pull desired mob.
druids can root/snare succor and run back to single mob
paladins got root...not sure how their pacify works these days...root mob, zone out, and back in
Shadowknights can snare + FD
necromancers can snare + FD
Magicians can use pets and now will be able to fade
rogues, who are also top dps can use mez/blur trap to pull
wizards got a great root to CC and snare...with evac they can lose agro off adds
shamans got VP and other roots. with bind/gate they can lose agro
enchanters are kings of pulling now...what can't they do :)
monks don't even need FD for pulling now, since they can mez+blur anything
bards are of course king of pulling with monks.

so.....except for warriors we're the last class in EQ not having any kind of tools to use except.....slow, which is crappy today in EQ. Somebody...please explain to monks how we shouldn't recieve FD, even if it would have some ghetto pulling ability involved :P
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Sikkem on April 12, 2010, 08:26:19 PM
the other trick is to use range item to tag / FD stand  tag FD untill you split one off .. again with lots of FD fails not a good way to pull. 

This was one of the old methods for pulling run speed immune ot highly resistant mobs so I assume it would still work. The key was getting the mob you had directly aggroed close enough to you that it would stay longer than the other mobs. Some pulls took a very long time this way, I remember spirocs in TD being a real pain.

I asked Elidroth about the desrciption and the fail rate his answer was
Quote
The 20% chance is all there is. The rest is 'in character' text for flavor.
So the good news is I and the description is wrong and mobs will not see through Possum it's just the success rate and spells to worry about.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Grbage on April 12, 2010, 08:28:30 PM
I forsee 'tuning' and no further upgrades if this gets used as a pulling tool instead of a deaggro tool. It seems the devs are making it more of a habit to implement things poorly and then go back and nerf them rather than doing it properly to begin with and that makes this sort of tool a potential thorn. Or so it seems to me.
Wildwaters, you play an SK right?  So you might be more familiar with exactly how FD applies to pulling.  From what I gather, FD by itself is more a means to recover from a bad pull, as opposed to being the basis of the pull.

For example monks pull with mez, not FD.  Bards pull with Fade I guess.  A number of classes used DC pulling till it was recently fixed.  Even this was a combination of FD + another ability.

Do you see FD alone as a threat to the pulling classes?

FD by itself works quite well for pulling/breaking camps. All the FD classes have been doing it for years. The extra pulling tools like mez are a more recent addition to the game. I'm not the best puller on my necro but that is skill. Give a 100% FD to someone who is good at pulling and voila, bst are now pullers.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: nedoirah on April 12, 2010, 08:51:24 PM
I don't want to become a puller class. We're spread to thin as it is. I can see FD as a decent deagro tool but rather would see improvementsl to existing deagro tools like bite of the asp or roar of thunder. Roars only problem is the nuke component outweighs the deagro component.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Bumkus on April 12, 2010, 09:03:30 PM
So to sum up
1) no, fd is not a threat to other pullers
2) it can probably be used and probably shouldn't be used to pull
3) it is a so so deaggro ability
4) it is a weak escape ability
5) it has the potential to cause a lot of grief in terms of stagnation, and some classes will likely never let your class forget you have it.
6) beastlord dps is done in such a way that Fd will have an impact on it. It may not be huge but it will be there.
Thanks for the well thought out and organized post.  But I am still a little confused.  If points 1,3,4 and 6 are true, why would you have concerns about it being used to stagnate us, especially given that every other class has some method of shedding aggro.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Mazame on April 12, 2010, 10:52:48 PM
Quote
So to sum up

1) no, fd is not a threat to other pullers
2) it can probably be used and probably shouldn't be used to pull
3) it is a so so deaggro ability
4) it is a weak escape ability
5) it has the potential to cause a lot of grief in terms of stagnation, and some classes will likely never let your class forget you have it.
6) beastlord dps is done in such a way that Fd will have an impact on it. It may not be huge but it will be there

1) as I said before bst pulled before FD they can pull after it.  anyone can pull just some are more effective at it and if you have them in your group great. but I don't know of any group for a long time that said  we don't have a puller so were going to sit on our butt untill we find one.  if puller fill threatened it because they suck and are qq just to qq but don't understand the game.

2) if soloing you want to use it for a pull tool great. if you try and use it as a pull tool in a group your wasting your groups time and need to learn how to pull with out it.  I sorry but you can ask the Sk and monks I group with often if they are FD pulling and it to slow then I just start pulling. in grind groups you want a mob to kill you don't want to be waiting for one

3) it a great Deaggro ability.  1 key  = FD. /stand /assit warder /attack ..... you wont even miss a swing unless your computer lags  but then you probly miss the swing anyways

4) as a escape  it great if your not on the top of the hate list and you know a wipe is coming you can flop
If you are top on the hate list nothing you could do in the past would save you so this is a nice improvement over nothing

5) with all the mean of pulling in the game and all the ways to fade / drop aggro i don't feel it will make much diffrence who has a fade / fd or what ever. more so these day a deaggro tool can be used for travel more then pulling imo

6) Monks have FD and there DPS is already greater then our  if they was to QQ about FD  let them there plenty of ways to counter that argument.


Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: nedoirah on April 16, 2010, 01:21:02 PM
Playing possum has been changed. It now allows a bst to be running and still have a chance for success. I bought it on live and it works.

<edit>
Hmm I think that was a bug cause I'm in time trying it out and it's giving me the no longer feigned cause you moved message.

<edit>
Ok I have it figured out. If you're running or walking using the autorun/autowalk key then you will flop with a normal success/failure chance. If you're runing or walking on manual then you will get the you have moved and no longer feigned message.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Grbage on April 16, 2010, 02:22:06 PM
Sounds like a bug to me. Problem is which is the buggy one?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: nedoirah on April 16, 2010, 02:44:42 PM
It's not a bug. I tested it out on live numerous times. As I said in my second edit, we can use it in autorun/autowalk and still have the normal chance to succeed. It's when we manually walk/run that we affect the play possum. Autowalk/autorun auto-cancels when anything would normally interrupt walking/running. I.E. dismounting, ducking (not 100% sure of this one), FD.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: bradam on April 16, 2010, 04:13:09 PM
You guys notice pretty much everything resists Chameleon Strike?  Haven't tried it out side of UF T8 zones yet tho

Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Bumkus on April 16, 2010, 04:30:57 PM
You guys notice pretty much everything resists Chameleon Strike?  Haven't tried it out side of UF T8 zones yet tho
I got a lot of resists in Old Bloodfileds last night, but I heard on Sony forums that deagro portion is unresistable, so you still get benefit if resisted.

But I don't know what the second part of the AA does.  It is supposed to reduce the damage added by further attacks.  does this only apply to melee aggro?
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Catnip_Inny on April 16, 2010, 04:35:28 PM
4) as a escape  it great if your not on the top of the hate list and you know a wipe is coming you can flop
If you are top on the hate list nothing you could do in the past would save you so this is a nice improvement over nothing

does basic FD/PP fail if your cast on with an AE? if so kinda makes this a lot less useful on raids as an escape tool.  most mobs have some form of AE and im wondering if we are going to hit PP and think were safe then go SPLAT :)

also,

not sure if someome posted this yet but the fail msg seems to be "has fallen to the ground", when I dont get that msg and I just get the "you play dead" msg I know it worked.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Catnip_Inny on April 16, 2010, 04:38:27 PM
You guys notice pretty much everything resists Chameleon Strike?  Haven't tried it out side of UF T8 zones yet tho
I got a lot of resists in Old Bloodfileds last night, but I heard on Sony forums that deagro portion is unresistable, so you still get benefit if resisted.

But I don't know what the second part of the AA does.  It is supposed to reduce the damage added by further attacks.  does this only apply to melee aggro?

funny that our new shiny ability gets resisted all the time... thanks sony :)

whether or not the deaggro portion works shouldnt matter really... why give it a second function if its not gonna work on group lvl content :)... you really have to wonder sometimes what goes through the devs minds...
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Grbage on April 16, 2010, 05:28:48 PM
4) as a escape  it great if your not on the top of the hate list and you know a wipe is coming you can flop
If you are top on the hate list nothing you could do in the past would save you so this is a nice improvement over nothing


does basic FD/PP fail if your cast on with an AE? if so kinda makes this a lot less useful on raids as an escape tool.  most mobs have some form of AE and im wondering if we are going to hit PP and think were safe then go SPLAT :)

also,

not sure if someome posted this yet but the fail msg seems to be "has fallen to the ground", when I dont get that msg and I just get the "you play dead" msg I know it worked.

I've never played my necro on raids, just soloing and grouping. He doesn't have the aa's to keep spells from breaking FD but here's what happens. I pull more then 1 mob, I flop, non casting mob stops, casting mob completes cast, I get hit then non casting mob comes for me again. So, it looks to me like it does drop me from the agro list until the spell lands and you are put right back on the list. My guess is it puts you back on the list at the prox agro amount.

If it works the same for us we will be dropped down the agro list but will still end up dying in a wipe situation when ae's are flying.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Mazame on April 16, 2010, 10:39:19 PM
Fd/pp  AE will still hit you. this is more of a deaggro tool then an escape tool.

when I know mobs are casters I get out of LOS before using so far this has saved me more time then when I go splat.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Hzath on April 17, 2010, 06:09:34 AM
So lucy finally updated, seems Chamelon Strike has an outrageously high 3400 agro drop with 20 second refresh.  The skill attack is 110, a bit less than forray but more than I would have guessed.

So our deagro went from 3500/60seconds = 58.33 hate dropped assuming you hit Asp/Raven every time they popped to...

3500/50 + 3400/20 = 240 hate dropped per second, assuming you spam them as they pop.

Quadrupled, before FD is even considered. 


I stand by my initial position that we received a ridiculous amount of deagro, and that possum should have been made into a reliable escape.

However, it does work well to split mobs if you have a partner or group ready to tag.  Let's enjoy the new pulling utility, I guess.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Catnip_Inny on April 17, 2010, 08:10:39 AM
Fd/pp  AE will still hit you. this is more of a deaggro tool then an escape tool.

when I know mobs are casters I get out of LOS before using so far this has saved me more time then when I go splat.

LOL funny how Devs said this was intended as an escape tool!
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Nusa on April 17, 2010, 09:21:26 AM
That's true of FD or Fade in any form for any class that has it...AE's  or casts-in-progress break it. Nothing new there. Only difference is the primary FD classes get to retry sooner.

It is an escape tool....you just have to know how to use it.

It is a aggro-reducing tool...that's the simplest use.

It is a pulling tool, way inferior to monks, but still useable in the simple cases...you just have to know how to use it. Note that mobs hate you and your pet separately and theres no transfer when you're FD...and yes, you can grab a tail-end mob with your pet while waiting for the rest of the mobs to lose aggro on you. Necros have known this for ages. Of course, in UF that's likely to cost you the pet if a real tank isn't there to grab it...but it'll still live long enough to make the pull.

FD is more versatile than Fade, in my opinion.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Zunar on April 17, 2010, 10:08:30 AM
Well my feeling is we got something very good here, where most other classes got nothing.
I like Chameleon Strike, although I still manage to gank agro when I'm chaining all my spells on occasion...It still helps alot.

Fade would have most likely been on a 15min refresh timer, like rangers have with cover tracks.
I for one wouldn't wanna trade this FD we have now into a 15min timer fade...this we have now offers more utility.
Instead would be nice to work on geting pet FD AA too next.

I like being able to safely AFK in a zone with FD, knowing you won't be trained to death when u come back.
I like being able to flop when group/raid is wiping to save yourself, and in group even pop a merc to recover the group.
It's nice as an escape, or means to travel in older content, instead of plowing through mobs.
In it's own limited way it allows us to split mobs, when there is no puller around to do it...making us able to try things instead of siting in GH cuz you can't get a puller to do it.
My 2 cp.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: kharthai on April 17, 2010, 02:49:06 PM
Well my feeling is we got something very good here, where most other classes got nothing.

Agreed, pretty much.  I'd like some AA's to increase success rate still, maybe with next expansion.  Pet FD I don't really care about one way or the other.
Title: Re: New AAs on Test!!!
Post by: Lathon on April 20, 2010, 05:08:38 PM
Well my feeling is we got something very good here, where most other classes got nothing.

Agreed, pretty much.  I'd like some AA's to increase success rate still, maybe with next expansion.  Pet FD I don't really care about one way or the other.

AA's into success rate and something to be able to eat an AE/spell and not lose fd would be a huge plus.

As for pet FD, I agree Karthai... with pet hold and /focus ability there should be no real reason to lose your pet unless you are actively engaged and things go bad. It's easier to unsuspend a new pet if one died than to med up from a wipe due to a failed FD. I can name a lot more adjustments that can be made before thinking about adding a pet FD...