(Topic link just shows where he said it, topic isn't relevant) - http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=50&topic_id=163668�
Quote from: ElidrothThis is a bit off topic but BST burst ability is on my list of things to address.
Discuss!
Personally I ain't holding my breath because it they have promised things in the past and never delivered.
At least Elidroth has some form on the board with the changes made to Possum and Chameleon though.
Sadly my mind keeps expecting an outcome like Friendly Pet though.
Good to hear.
There's a few ideas in recent spell threads (http://beastlords.org/index.php?topic=8747.0) and (http://beastlords.org/index.php?topic=8722.0).
A priority - minimize the number of new abilities to be activated. The fix should consist of a replacement/upgrade to our current abilities and maybe one new one. Beastlords are dying from the number of buttons we need to push to maximize our dps nowadays. We work harder than any other class for our mediocre numbers. Don't punish us further.
A priority - I think this shouldn't affect stacking from shaman epic (crit size, crit chance), Shaman third spire (accuracy, min damage), Bard Quick Time (hundred hands), Zerker aura (hundred hands). Overlap with Bard overhaste would be nice, but I really don't want to farm another bit of bard utility out for ourselves.
Some noteables ideas from those threads above/my suggestions:
Empathic Fury (damage discipline which lands on pet and self) - needs an upgrade...it's worse than our AA-based damage disc now (Bestial Alignment), increase duration
Idea: Feral Quickening - reduce reuse on feral swipe to almost nothing for certain amount of time. (similar to Heel of Kanji or Frenzied Backstab). Don't do this to our Harrow/Rake line though please, due to the huge agro it would generate. Needs to scale well between gear/AA levels though.
Idea: Crit disc which stacks with our damage discs. For us to get that high dps, we need to have some multiplicative stacking going on with our discs that we don't have. This would be a big help, though raises stacking issues above.
Idea: Sizeable spell crit disc combined with (if possible) guaranteed 4-procs from Yowl. We cast tons already, and it's getting to the point where some spells like Yowl won't be worthwhile at times due to longer cast time (we're almost there now at the top end). Make our casting more useful. This also would obviously scale nicely as gear and AAs improve.
Request: Approximately 20-25 minutes reuse (consistent with our other damage disciplines), perhaps after about 15 or so AAs to hasten if you feel necessary.
Quote from: Inphared on May 10, 2010, 02:54:17 AM
(Topic link just shows where he said it, topic isn't relevant) - http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=50&topic_id=163668�
Quote from: ElidrothThis is a bit off topic but BST burst ability is on my list of things to address.
Discuss!
Discuss? do you want to know if we want burst dps .. yes we spend all of last year saying it was needed. or you asking how we want to go about burst dps? or that fact that elidroth said he was looking into it that were discussing?
Edited for formating <Khauruk>
I hope that the new ability will be an upgrade to Frenzy of Spirit or a revamp of third spire. Both are pretty minimal gains right now. (Edit: I say this so that no new activated AA will be included, ideally something we already have gets upgraded or changed)
Like Khauruk said, it needs to be something that stacks with our current discs in a multiplicative way (i.e. a bigger damage mod % will not do the job). Looking to what other classes currently have for ideas:
Monks have speed focus, a large hundred hands effect. Something like this would make sense on a second rank of frenzy of spirit, which already has 100% haste (to keep with the fast attack mindset of the ability).
Berserkers have savage spirit, a large critical damage mod enhancer. This doesn't necessarily make sense anywhere, but I say make 3rd spire self only and make it something similar to savage spirit.
Rogues have frenzied stabbing, the feral quickening idea is a lot like this. Feral swipe doesn't scale at all with gear though, which is our problem currently.
I have always been fond of the activated AA that guarantees 4x yowl pets for the next few casts. However, pets scale poorly.
With our dps problems being mainly in the high end raid game I think the first 2 suggestions, HH effect or large critical damage mod are the best options because they will scale with weapon damage.
Quote from: Hzath on May 10, 2010, 05:45:10 AM
Rogues have frenzied stabbing, the feral quickening idea is a lot like this. Feral swipe doesn't scale at all with gear though, which is our problem currently.
If given as a disc, it has room for scaling, and can act (I think) as a damage bonus tied to Feral Swipe. Code it with a 1st spire type effect limited to the SPA of Feral Swipe.
I'm concerned with upgrades being given as a disc, but it's what all the other melees have to deal with, so I guess we should too.
Whatever you do though, Elidroth, please put it on Test for a while so we can test the tuning..and please tune it with stacking of buffs/effects in mind, so we don't have to deal with nerfs later on. If you're not sure what a bst would be stacking, ask one of us. Nerfs, even when reasonable, are simply demoralizing.
Quote from: Khauruk on May 10, 2010, 06:16:27 AM
Quote from: Hzath on May 10, 2010, 05:45:10 AM
Rogues have frenzied stabbing, the feral quickening idea is a lot like this. Feral swipe doesn't scale at all with gear though, which is our problem currently.
If given as a disc, it has room for scaling, and can act (I think) as a damage bonus tied to Feral Swipe. Code it with a 1st spire type effect limited to the SPA of Feral Swipe.
I'm sure they could, but wouldn't that raise the same issue? A bazaar geared bst with feral swipe AAs would gain almost the same benefit as one in Convorteum gear. Sure the disc could be increased over time but that seems like it would just overpower us in the group game and/or not give enough boost at endgame. For what it's worth I still think the AA is a cool idea and wouldn't mind seeing it added at some point.
I also wanted to add remove the recast from frozen venom.
Quote from: Hzath on May 10, 2010, 06:42:07 AM
I also wanted to add remove the recast from frozen venom.
While I think this is a necessary thing, it wouldn't exactly improve burst quality. It would just raise our base DPS level by a pretty small number.
Just pointing that out before people jump on that bandwagon and then that's the only upgrade we get.
You need to mainchange again and start posting some 17k parses just to reassure me it's possible.
Quote from: Hzath on May 10, 2010, 07:53:00 AM
You need to mainchange again and start posting some 17k parses just to reassure me it's possible.
I don't think 17k is possible at this point, but I hit around 12k on a Badgers run (named only obviously) with no bard. Considering most DPS classes today are putting out numbers 17k and above, it wasn't anything worth noticing.
Quote from: Hzath on May 10, 2010, 06:42:07 AM
Quote from: Khauruk on May 10, 2010, 06:16:27 AM
Quote from: Hzath on May 10, 2010, 05:45:10 AM
Rogues have frenzied stabbing, the feral quickening idea is a lot like this. Feral swipe doesn't scale at all with gear though, which is our problem currently.
If given as a disc, it has room for scaling, and can act (I think) as a damage bonus tied to Feral Swipe. Code it with a 1st spire type effect limited to the SPA of Feral Swipe.
I'm sure they could, but wouldn't that raise the same issue? A bazaar geared bst with feral swipe AAs would gain almost the same benefit as one in Convorteum gear.
That's what ranked discs are for.
They want to give us more burst dps? start giving us same level of DA and TA as rangers and add flurry AA line.
Then make a new version of our burst discs and up their damage boost :
Empathic Fury BST/68:
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%
3: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 100% with All Skills
New Empathic Fury:
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 200%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 500%
3: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 150% with All Skills
Or something really noticeable, just tune it to give X desired boost on burst dps
Unlink Bestial Fury from Empathic Fury (keeping them as non stacking), and make a new version of that disc:
Bestial Fury BST/60
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%
New Bestial Fury:
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 200%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 500%
Or something really noticeable, just tune it to give X desired boost on burst dps
This "simple things" would up our burst dps tremendously.
Quote from: Thorgador on May 10, 2010, 12:58:00 PM
They want to give us more burst dps? start giving us same level of DA and TA as rangers and add flurry AA line.
Then make a new version of our burst discs and up their damage boost :
Empathic Fury BST/68:
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%
3: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 100% with All Skills
New Empathic Fury:
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 200%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 500%
3: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 150% with All Skills
Or something really noticeable, just tune it to give X desired boost on burst dps
Unlink Bestial Fury from Empathic Fury (keeping them as non stacking), and make a new version of that disc:
Bestial Fury BST/60
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%
New Bestial Fury:
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 200%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 500%
Or something really noticeable, just tune it to give X desired boost on burst dps
This "simple things" would up our burst dps tremendously.
I want Pet increased, i do not want to be a Ranger in leather armor with a pet not worth loading; increasing our melee skills to Ranger levels will insure this will happen.
So boost our pet (a Lot) then design a decent Disc around us and our pet.
This level of tuning is much less likely to happen between expansion though, and I am hoping this would run live in a couple of months...if we can get a decent agreed upon suggestion to Elidroth.
So, suggestions not requiring coding support, not requiring large tuning of non-burst dps are a bit more likely to go live.
The most straight forward fix to our last of Burst DPS is to jack up Emp Fury and Bestial Allignment big time. They will actually need to be over-jacked, with the understanding that we will not be casting while under disc.
Even at current damage mods, larger % of the population are running in question whether they are losing dps if they cast under disc. This will only get worse as weapon ratios increase.
We cannot ask for DA, TA, Pet DPS to adress Burst DPS. these will create issues with our sustained DPS, which seems to be ok right now.
I would like to ask for DA, TA, Pet DPS and even reduced cast time on Yowl to 0.5 sec, but that needs to be handled completely separately.
Upgrade
EF and BA these are our burn disc and by putting them will boost our Burn DPS.
Give us a new AA like SK/Zeker got that locks out our other abilitys while in that forum but increasses our DPS to 8-9K it would let us click that add not have spam click boosting our short term DPS it would also let use our other burn disc on a 2nd target
Fero = Revamp it to add +crit% mod and + base damage in place of the +attack that dose almost nothing and that to could then be use to help our Burn dps.
I think doing those 4 things would being us up to where we should be for burn DPS.
Warder would be nice but again that more over time dps not burst dps
Full burning spell+dot damage can easily break 4000 dps for 2-3minutes. Let's consider that they probably won't give us an ability that powerful so avoid asking for things that will lock out a huge chunk of our damage.
Quote from: Hzath on May 10, 2010, 08:19:57 PM
Full burning spell+dot damage can easily break 4000 dps for 2-3minutes. Let's consider that they probably won't give us an ability that powerful so avoid asking for things that will lock out a huge chunk of our damage.
Full burning short term disc ( 10 min or less ) and spells I avg 4.5k to 6 k dps for up to 5 min window. if I pop all disc and stack with shamy click I broken 10k on 3-5 min named fights in tower. asking for 8-9k burn disc on a say 30 min reuse so that fights like event 4 or 6 in tower we can use normal burn on one and the lock out burn on the other I don't think is OP or asking to much all it means is on an event we have a 1 click burn and then a multi click burn and we can use them on diffrent targets in the event.
Sorry, I meant JUST the spell damage is 4000 dps. I'm normally 12-13k for everything, spells just make up 3-4k of every burn.
Edit: I really hope we aren't getting our hopes up and that he doesn't give us a proc or something like paladins got. Better to dream big though I guess.
Quote from: Hzath on May 11, 2010, 04:28:31 AM
Sorry, I meant JUST the spell damage is 4000 dps. I'm normally 12-13k for everything, spells just make up 3-4k of every burn.
Edit: I really hope we aren't getting our hopes up and that he doesn't give us a proc or something like paladins got. Better to dream big though I guess.
Well, I PMed him this thread on eq forums, and asked him to pop over and give us a better idea of what he's looking at so we can feed him what we'd like to see.
Hopefully he will.
I guess it would make sense that this burst dps is directly tied to our weapon ratio, by giving greater returns to high end raiding. (it has been said a couple times now that in mid-tier lower dps guilds our dps is still able to compete...atleast up to a point)
Just boosting Empathic Fury/ Bestial Alignment would do this...be it by adding more to crits/modifiers, or even adding flurry chances to it, the impact from these disc/AA would benefit you more, the higher ratio weapons you have equipped. Imo, as it should be.
The problem is bsts dps hasn't been as weapon dependant as other melee/hybrids are, so we get much less returns from weapon upgrades too, in comparison to other classes :/
Because of this handicap with weapons, our discs need to be much more powerful than melees discs are, because we attack less times than them, and gain much less returns from a burn disc.
looking at some info from short parses camikazi ran I'd sya bump double and tripple attack caps in addition to upgrading our discs.
How about some kinda oversized pet rhino that does has 100k+ hp like the chanter phant-something pet and does massive damage, useable once an hour ish?
Adjust its dps against the pet focus level you have to keep the dps lower for groupers?
Might as well keep it entertaining!
Quote from: bradam on May 11, 2010, 03:25:42 PM
How about some kinda oversized pet rhino that does has 100k+ hp like the chanter phant-something pet and does massive damage, useable once an hour ish?
Adjust its dps against the pet focus level you have to keep the dps lower for groupers?
Please, no more oversized anything. Our current AA swarm pet is too big even. There's just too damn many pets and swarm pets in game currently anyways. Lack of ability to control swarm pets makes me cringe too.
Please 25ish minute reuse timer so it us useable essentially every raid target.
If they could make it so we can give it an attack command and kept it very small, I'd probably like it more than enough. But, that first one requires significant code time :(
I thought up of an idea that sounds interesting, even though it is sort of a stolen mechanic. Also just thinking out loud.
Rogues have backstab damage on their weapons, and I was thinking we could get sort of a "feral" damage mark on the HTH weapons that we get (or Torment, if you're in group content). It wouldn't do anything normally, but if you then hit a discipline (or AA or whatever) it gave you the ability to tap into that damage and you could frequently make a damage check against that damage number for high damage values.
Ideally this would be just a "hit one button and it does the work" thing but who knows. I don't see why rogues have to be the only class centered around a seperate damage table.
Alternatively we could ask for something much like the Monks/Berserkers have, Calanin's Synergy/Overpowering Frenzy. Foray damage, or Feral Swipe damage, that applies a debuff that makes those abilities hit even harder.
Keep in mind I'm limited to working within the AA system. Spells/Discs need to go through Aristo for adjustments.
Welcome to the Den, Elidroth. Don't be a stranger.
Can you just update BA to like 400% damage mod?
Also, I find myself looking at you in a new light with your name being posted right under Inphared's signature like that. Gotta say I'm kinda creepin' myself out.
Also, one of the issues we have is Beastlords (in our testing) seem to be better off in the group game, but in a bad way in the raid game. The problem of course is, adding value to the raid side, without blowing the group side out of balance.
It's absolutely on my radar, but not something I can likely make drastic changes to until the expansion.
Quote from: Elidroth on May 12, 2010, 07:26:26 PM
Also, one of the issues we have is Beastlords (in our testing) seem to be better off in the group game, but in a bad way in the raid game. The problem of course is, adding value to the raid side, without blowing the group side out of balance.
It's absolutely on my radar, but not something I can likely make drastic changes to until the expansion.
By "in our testing" I assume you mean sustained dps and burst dps outside of all the multiplicative effects you might see in a raid burn.
I agree we are ok in terms of sustain and non-assisted burst, but don't equate that with being ok in the group game. We are still one of those "other" classes you use to fill out a group with after the necessary spots are filled. I'd wager that bst and rog are the 2 classes most hard pressed to try to build a group from scratch. ("Bst forming group, looking for more. Just need tank, healer and cc, then good to go.") This problem is the result with being worse than at least 2 other classes at everything we do, SE and Paragon not withstanding, and also being a melee class that must deal with the full brunt of mob dps.
This in not as much a problem with boxing bst or bst that already run with a crew, but it's a death trap for up and coming bst and it is one of the reasons we have a lower than average retention rate (unless you can show numbers that our retention rate is better than Aaneras' analysis showed on the eq forums.)
I don't want to derail this conversation because burst dps at end-game is probably the single most pressing issue right now, but I do want to leave the door open to improving our role in a group setting. Don't be shy about about increasing dps at the group level also, unless you guys are making plans to reintroduce utility back into the class.
Thanks for taking the invite, Elidroth.
Welcome to the boards Elidroth!
I have to agree with Bumkus, we might currently be where you want us dps wise for groups and I am too if we had our old utility back. Our utility is basically slow and nothing else in current content. Update our buffs/debuffs/heal and I'll be a happy beast. Without those updated all we have is DPS and in that case it needs a significant boost.
Welcome Elidroth, well met!
I too will agree here, with DPS for group setting I think I'm about right (I'm on the low end of AA's compared to these hardcore raider types, but thats cos I slack alot :))
Raiding yes, burst DPS needs a nudge upwards, but group wise, lacking utility is a big issue. Also one thing we've lost which was a real bonus in group content was being able to let the pet reliably offtank adds - that would be a very positive thing to have back. It doesn't matter that fluffy can't kill the things, just as long as he can keep em busy without needing a heal every 2 seconds.
Quote from: Elidroth on May 12, 2010, 05:51:03 PM
Keep in mind I'm limited to working within the AA system. Spells/Discs need to go through Aristo for adjustments.
With these restrictions, and looking to keep group dps controlled, a version of wizards 1st spire or Frenzied Devastationn sounds like an option I'd strongly support. The relative dps tuning is already covered by spell ranks and foci. It builds upon the stronger casting role we've been given with Underfoot. It's new, and we finally have enough agro control abilities to make use of it. 90 second to 2 minute duration.
Frenzied Devastation (rank 3) http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=5247&source=Live
Slot Description
1: Decrease Spell Mana Cost by 0%
2: Limit: Instant spells only
3: Limit: Spell Type (Detrimental only)
4: Limit: Effect (Hitpoints allowed)
5: Limit: Combat Skills Not Allowed
6: Spell Crit Chance (40)
Max Hits: 9
I would ask that you are open to removing the instant duration restriction and max hits restriction (due to our much lower spell base damage and relative lack of crit size enhancers) and even if necessary lower the crit chance to allow for that to happen. Our 30 second ice nukes are becoming rapidly superseded by our DoTs and some aren't memming them anymore.
You know the idea of bumping up bestial alignment has merit;
Sk's recently got visage of death:
2: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 180%
3: Illusion: Zombie
Bestial Alignment:
1: Illusion: Tiger
3: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
4: Increase Chance to Resist Spell by 20%
Being an SK main these days I've found the mod on Visage seems pretty well balanced for current content.
I also keep up with my beastlord and have found bestial to have stagnated against current content. It would seem reasonable to up the mod on bestial to bring it into line with the HP on monsters in new content.
Also, most beastlords will agree that third spite is next to useless. It may be a good idea just to rework that.
Shadowknight spire (first spire of the reaver) looks like:
2: Critical DoT (20)
3: Unknown #375 (100/200/0)
4: Spell Crit Chance (20)
Simply reworking third spire for beastlord into something similar would add some additional burst capacity without breaking group content.
A combination of increasing the mod on higher ranks of bestial alignment and changing third spire to effect spell damage would be a reasonable boost to beastlord burst dps without having to make alot of alterations.
Lol khauruk posted while I was typing that up. That wizard spire looks good too. Necros also got a spire with spell damage mods. It would make sense that at least one beast spire should effect spell damage.
I am not a real fan of the 9 hit limit there.
Also DoT's (by their very nature) do not lend well to burst dps but having an ability that increases nuke and DoT potential would allow a beastlord to determine which spells would be best suited to cast while under such an ability in any given situation.
It also makes sense that our three spires should effect our three forms of damage spell, melee and pet. Melee and pet we sort of have, but spell damage is not included in our spires.
Quote from: Inphared on May 12, 2010, 03:18:44 PM
I thought up of an idea that sounds interesting, even though it is sort of a stolen mechanic. Also just thinking out loud.
Rogues have backstab damage on their weapons, and I was thinking we could get sort of a "feral" damage mark on the HTH weapons that we get (or Torment, if you're in group content). It wouldn't do anything normally, but if you then hit a discipline (or AA or whatever) it gave you the ability to tap into that damage and you could frequently make a damage check against that damage number for high damage values.
Ideally this would be just a "hit one button and it does the work" thing but who knows. I don't see why rogues have to be the only class centered around a seperate damage table.
Alternatively we could ask for something much like the Monks/Berserkers have, Calanin's Synergy/Overpowering Frenzy. Foray damage, or Feral Swipe damage, that applies a debuff that makes those abilities hit even harder.
I agree it'd be a nice way to improve the higher end dps as it's needed, however I wonder how much more work it'd require to change itemization, instead of just puting some changes to AAs.
Upgrading bestial Alignment and perhaps giving us flurry AAs might go a long way.
Quote from: Zunar on May 13, 2010, 01:40:25 PM
Upgrading bestial Alignment and perhaps giving us flurry AAs might go a long way.
Flurry will not help unless we get more triple attack, our TA rate is low and since flurry can only trigger on a successful triple it will not help.
Quote from: wildwaters on May 13, 2010, 09:37:18 AM
You know the idea of bumping up bestial alignment has merit;
Sk's recently got visage of death:
2: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 180%
3: Illusion: Zombie
Bestial Alignment:
1: Illusion: Tiger
3: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
4: Increase Chance to Resist Spell by 20%
Being an SK main these days I've found the mod on Visage seems pretty well balanced for current content.
I also keep up with my beastlord and have found bestial to have stagnated against current content. It would seem reasonable to up the mod on bestial to bring it into line with the HP on monsters in new content.
Also, most beastlords will agree that third spite is next to useless. It may be a good idea just to rework that.
Shadowknight spire (first spire of the reaver) looks like:
2: Critical DoT (20)
3: Unknown #375 (100/200/0)
4: Spell Crit Chance (20)
Simply reworking third spire for beastlord into something similar would add some additional burst capacity without breaking group content.
A combination of increasing the mod on higher ranks of bestial alignment and changing third spire to effect spell damage would be a reasonable boost to beastlord burst dps without having to make alot of alterations.
Wild for once I kind of agree with you the problem I have is one I been saying for a while. SK got a big jump with UF. and I not saying Nerf SK. but the fact that your post is asking to bring bst up to par with Sk's is just wrong. we are DPS or so they say the fact that anything should have to be brought up to SK level ( a tank ) is just wrong. if anything they should be higher then an SK plan and simple.
Clutter
The point was that we could easily be bumped up with in those mod ranges. The point of linking sk stuff was to illustrate that a bump was not out of balance.
You have to factor in that a bump in the mod is not just effected by the bump to the melee mod itself but by double attack, tripple attack, foray and other activated abilities etc. The Mod on visage was designed around the abilities given to shadowknights. Any increases we ask for have to be designed around our own unique abilities.
Personally Id bump bestial to 200 but I have no numbers behind that.
Also, that particular sk ability has a silence attached to it where we DO NOT want that to happen to ourt abilities.
When you say that SKs got large bumps that is a very relative statement. Beasts got minor bumps in melee but LARGE bumps in spells.
Saying that sks can out dps beastlrods is a load of horse hockey.
My now defunct alliance is rather short of dps classes but its not unusual to see an sk pop up in the top 10. Yeah it is the lack of dps classes that allow them to pop into the top 10 but the fact they can shows what an sk can do.
Quote from: Grbage on May 14, 2010, 03:01:35 AM
My now defunct alliance is rather short of dps classes but its not unusual to see an sk pop up in the top 10. Yeah it is the lack of dps classes that allow them to pop into the top 10 but the fact they can shows what an sk can do.
Top end Sks are capable of 8k top end dps are capable of 10-16k easy I've heard warriors doing over 12k I cant verify that.
I think we should take a look at the discs we already have to work on them for upgrades instead of giving us more buttons to click.
Bestial frenzy to empathic fury. Nice upgrade but the long recast timer limits its uses. Also the retarget to pet is a pita.
Foray line. Love it. Does it work based on the weapons you have equipped? If it doesn't shouldn't it?
Feral swipe. Nice single hit aa once every 30 secs. Same with foray line. I would like more ranks in it.
3rd spire. What is this supposed to do? Can we get this fixed so it works right?
I think my point is hit up the discs that are melee based that are or should be weapon based for damage so it will scale up with weapons in regards to group or raid.
Quote from: wildwaters on May 14, 2010, 03:06:28 AM
Quote from: Grbage on May 14, 2010, 03:01:35 AM
My now defunct alliance is rather short of dps classes but its not unusual to see an sk pop up in the top 10. Yeah it is the lack of dps classes that allow them to pop into the top 10 but the fact they can shows what an sk can do.
Top end Sks are capable of 8k top end dps are capable of 10-16k easy I've heard warriors doing over 12k I cant verify that.
on a short fight I know sk have broken 20k . I don't know any bst that can get that at this point.
If your talking about a bst hitting 10k+ you talking about a lot of things falling into place and lining up right. the same could be then said for an sk in the same boat.
Toss out your dot, click HT, Click Zombie, have shammy click epic and you will be over 10k.
Bst have to burn non stop and keep everything grey and if they are lucky they break 10k . and so ya if things are timed right then bst and sk are very close to the same dps. now over a long grind with the ups and down on avg a bst will be 2k+ over a SK. but when it comes to burn if all things a up a sk and a bst on the same mob both going all out comes down to how long the mob is alive the long it is the bst will end up on top because we lock in on our dps and can hold it but we lack the burst to get it up high in the 1st 1-4 min.
That is what this topic is about the fact our Burst DPS lacks
20k over a LESS THAN 60 SECOND fight. I can hit 20k dps if I run up to a 20k hp mob and harm touch it.
A pally can do 70k dps with 3 25k slays in on a 70k hp mob.
The average sk burn seems to be 4-8k.
We need to focus on fights that last longer than 60 seconds.
Two things:
1) This is not about Shadowknights vs. Beastlords. Make a new thread if you want to discuss that. Stay on topic.
2) Keep it civil.
Thanks!
Quote from: wildwaters on May 14, 2010, 02:13:20 AM
Maybe I should qualify that so I dont feel like an asshole.
The point was that we could easily be bumped up with in those mod ranges. The point of linking sk stuff was to illustrate that a bump was not out of balance.
Personally Id bump bestial to 200.
You are missing the point that that particular sk ability has a silence attached to it.
Etc etc etc.
When you say that SKs got large bumps that is a very relative statement. Beasts got minor bumps in melee but LARGE bumps in spells. The result is that if you aren't lazy you got more of a bump then Sk's did in SUSTAINABLE dps. It comes down to those who use what they are given. Sk's (imo) tend to be players who maximize everything available to them so if you are unable to sustain higher dps than a sk then you are not working for it.
I am sick of hearing that sks can out dps beastlrods because its a load of horse hockey.
/rant off
Well, beastlords and SKs are very different, and I wouldn't compare the 2 classes dps wise.
Sks did however get a large bump up, which was probably needed, and the way
Visage of Death and overall SK Dps abilities work, makes it stack very well even with the silence.
You can cast DoTs, click epic, leech, harmtouch, spire? and then click Visage, and watch the dps roll in from the massive damage over time and melee dps.
Beastlords don't have much to speak of stacking dps abilities with multiplicative effect.
Instead of saying SKs are overpowered....I'd say it only shows how we are underpowered, and in serious need of attention...hence this thread.
Quote from: Elidroth on May 12, 2010, 07:26:26 PM
Also, one of the issues we have is Beastlords (in our testing) seem to be better off in the group game, but in a bad way in the raid game. The problem of course is, adding value to the raid side, without blowing the group side out of balance.
It's absolutely on my radar, but not something I can likely make drastic changes to until the expansion.
Something I posted in the AA suggestions:
Ferociousness of the Pack - short re-use akill attack that scales up with the number of PCs or pets on target's hate list, similar to Jolt of Many (but as an AA, not a spell like mages' Jolt).
I know that another button to mash isn't everyone's favorite idea, but something like this could easily be added to the kick/swipe/foray social that most of us have. This ability could be scaled for a modest dps increase for a group setting and could ramp up at a steeper rate for the numbers present on a raid. It would also see significant output when discing, again with the largest gains during a raid. Groupers would also see a nice burn increase if teamed with other pet owners or time their disc with using Attack of the Warders (assuming it would be based on pets on hate list).
If scaled right, something like this could give beastlords a nice boost in raid dps without getting too crazy in a group setting. Just don't scimp too much for groupers, we need love there too!
Quote from: Inphared on May 14, 2010, 07:19:43 AM
Two things:
1) This is not about Shadowknights vs. Beastlords. Make a new thread if you want to discuss that. Stay on topic.
2) Keep it civil.
Thanks!
How can I keep on topic when your gif keeps distracting me?
Quote from: nedoirah on May 14, 2010, 04:04:55 AM
I think we should take a look at the discs we already have to work on them for upgrades instead of giving us more buttons to click.
Bestial frenzy to empathic fury. Nice upgrade but the long recast timer limits its uses. Also the retarget to pet is a pita.
Foray line. Love it. Does it work based on the weapons you have equipped? If it doesn't shouldn't it?
Feral swipe. Nice single hit aa once every 30 secs. Same with foray line. I would like more ranks in it.
3rd spire. What is this supposed to do? Can we get this fixed so it works right?
I think my point is hit up the discs that are melee based that are or should be weapon based for damage so it will scale up with weapons in regards to group or raid.
Special attacks like Foray are given a skill attack rating and damage is based off that skill. Foray happens to be 134/148/163 for ranks 1-3. So basically Foray RKIII base damage is equivalent to swinging a 163 damage weapon.
Quote from: Grbage on May 14, 2010, 02:40:13 PM
Quote from: nedoirah on May 14, 2010, 04:04:55 AM
I think we should take a look at the discs we already have to work on them for upgrades instead of giving us more buttons to click.
Bestial frenzy to empathic fury. Nice upgrade but the long recast timer limits its uses. Also the retarget to pet is a pita.
Foray line. Love it. Does it work based on the weapons you have equipped? If it doesn't shouldn't it?
Feral swipe. Nice single hit aa once every 30 secs. Same with foray line. I would like more ranks in it.
3rd spire. What is this supposed to do? Can we get this fixed so it works right?
I think my point is hit up the discs that are melee based that are or should be weapon based for damage so it will scale up with weapons in regards to group or raid.
Special attacks like Foray are given a skill attack rating and damage is based off that skill. Foray happens to be 134/148/163 for ranks 1-3. So basically Foray RKIII base damage is equivalent to swinging a 163 damage weapon.
I have Foray rk III and have seen the differences in damage output vs. rk II. I recently toyed with an old raid mob in rcod and watched the damage of rk II vs. rk III. rk II did 600-800 (per hit) while rk III did 800-1000 (per hit) or more. This is an avergage btw. Also this is attacking from the front on a raid con mob.
Please, keep this to burst dps ideas. Things like general scaling of Foray, FS, etc, are definitely not burst.
If there are no more ideas, I may just close the thread so it doesn't keep going off topic.
If Elidroth reads this again I'd be really interested in knowing which classes we should be comparable to dps wise, and how far off the mark they think we are at certain gear levels (T8 group, tower, T6 raid, etc.). Would be interesting to know what sort of increases we should be hoping for, and give us a well defined place in the pecking order to shoot for moving forward.
Welcome to the boards Elidroth :), it's really encouraging to see a dev reading this forums!
Regarding Khauruk's post about non-pure burst dps abilities like Foray, FS, etc... beeing out of topic, I kind of agree, but I would like to point out that our burst aas and discs mulitiply such abilities, and our burst dps is scaled from that base; with that what I want to say is that if, for example, with Bestal Alignment III you increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%, you are actually boosting not only "plain weapon damage" but all of our other skills like kick, foray, etc..., and I would like to remark that by upping such skills you would up the burst too (I am awarethat sustained dps would be also affected) but if we up the damage of our Rake/Harrow/Foray line as a defining class skill (maybe through beastlord usable weapons, in a way backstab is beeing boosted with +'s and %'s) the impact would be far greater to the burst damage (due to incremental factors) than to sustained dps. I am sure a formulae could be obtained to not unbalance sustained and boost noticeably burst dps.
Regarding discs, I would like to know what is the "time limit line" where burst changes into sustained, is it 1 minute? 2 minutes? Taking 1 minute as base line for burst dps, we would really need to rework our aa's and discs to suit better to this scenario. IE BA lasts max 5 ticks = 30 secs (and GBA lasts 1 min, but I would not factor that aa in as personal bst burst dps) and both of our main burst discs (Bestial Fury and Empathic Fury) last 5 ticks too, but then this two are on same timer (making Bestial Fury to be almost never used).
What I would suggest here is a few things that could be tested:
- Unlink Bestial Fury and Empathic Fury discs timers, and if possible, make a better version of Bestial Fury (to be on par with EF's dps); this would allow to be under a dps disc for 1 minute.
- Make new levels of Bestial Alignment (if not already planned in) and bring the modifier to around 175%-200%
- Make a new aa (already existing for GBA) extended BA, abling to extend BA 3-5 more ticks (maybe 5 ranks 1 tick extend by rank?)
- Give new ranks of BA (and our discs if possible at all) an added + bonus to our Rake line (meaning to define Rake/Harrow/Foray/xxx as an universal damage type like kick, bs, etc ...), maybe +10/+15/+20 bonus to the base damage of the skill?, this could scale up with BA % skill damage modifier and boost burst a lot.
Quote from: Thorgador on May 15, 2010, 01:09:34 AM
Regarding Khauruk's post about non-pure burst dps abilities like Foray, FS, etc... beeing out of topic, I kind of agree, but
Let's fight the fight we have a chance of winning here. Elidroth deals with AAs, so if he wants to, and has approval to, up BST burn dps, we need to come up with an AA-only solution. A solution which he can implement alone (i.e. no code support needed) would be far preferable too.
Could we get an estimated time for what you consider burst duration though, Elid?
lets think about the goal here and that being improving our burst dps so the 1-3 min range of when a burn is called. Most classes when Burn is called will hit ever thing that they can to stack and make the fight end asap.
the problem we have with AA is that most our AA in the current forum that are used for Burn don't stack we can use them one after another but using them together dose nothing or very little. that is why in longer fights we do ok because we follow one disc with another. where rog, monk, zerkers all have 2-3 disc they stack to get the effect they want.
the way I see it our short term disc are fine adding to them up our sustained dps because they can be used over and over. Burn disc would for us be more along the lines of
Empathic Fury 30 sec (25 min 30 sec recast)
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%
3: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 100% with All Skills
Both us and pet
down side is targets pet meaning we lose time having to re-targeting the mob
Bestial Fury Discipline 30 sec ( 25 m 30 sec recast )
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%
only us
Bestial Alignment 40 sec ( 24 min recast )
1: Illusion: Tiger
3: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
4: Increase Chance to Resist Spell by 20%
Now BF and EF are on same timer so we have 1 min of burn if we can re-target fast. so the quest is if we looking to improve our Burst DPS I like to offer the follow ideas
1st un link BF and EF giving us this wont effect the group game much because having 3, 1 min burn aa out of a 26 min period is not that OP..
2nd up the time on all 3 of these to 1 min that will give us 3 min of burn on fights that have multi rounds like tower 6 / Fippy / beast we could pick to burn all 3 min on one part or break them up on 3 different parts this would let us have to option and freedom to decide what will be best for the raid.
3rd would be to upgrade the AA them self my thoughts would be as followed
Empathic Fury 1 min (25 min 30 sec recast)
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 200%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 500%
3: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 200% with All Skills
Bestial Fury Discipline 1 min ( 25 m 30 sec recast )
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 150%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%
3: Increase Chance to Hit by 20% with All Skills
Or change BF from minimum damage mod to skill damage so it could be stacked with EF or BA
Bestial Fury Discipline 1 min ( 25 m 30 sec recast )
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 150%
2: Increase All Skills Damage (100)
3: Increase Chance to Hit by 20% with All Skills
Bestial Alignment 1 min ( 24 min recast )
1: Illusion: Tiger
2: Increase Proc Modifier by 30%
3: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 200%
4: Increase Chance to Resist Spell by 20%
4th request would be to change 3rd spire I know it a 10 min reuse and so not so much a long the lines of burn but like others have said we have 1st spire for melee skill 2nd spire for pet .. how about changing 3rd spire to spells. that way during burn we could click it to improve our spell dps and have it effect stack with our melee burning.
Currently 3rd spire =
Third Spire of the Savage Lord
Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 30%
Increase Chance to Hit by 7% with All Skills
Increase ATK by 12
in truth we all ready have Attack mods, the skill damage mod is the same as GBA so we gain a +7% to hit if used with GBA not really worth using. but if we changed it to say
Third Spire of the Savage Lord
Spell Crit Chance (18)
Additional Damage to Spell (300)
I feel this would give us more of a use as it could be stacked with out other disc
these changes I feel could be very simple fixes and would make a big impact on the Raid burn but as for group it would be a smaller impact because it on the longer recast timer discs that are being effected.
That looks pretty good Mazame, it would do the trick nicely I think.
I really agree that our third spire could use a change (again), and the spell idea isn't too bad at all.
About boosting our burst dps with AAs, without adding new ones, the only logical step is to do something with bestial alignment imo.
It could be remade to stack with empathic fury, and make em last longer than currently.
I also like the idea about adding "Feral" to bst useable weapons, like monks have flying kick mod, zerkers have frenzy, rogues backstab etc... It's a way to adjust bst sustained dps alittle, tied to itemization...perhaps something to think about for next expansion though.
I know that last bit was a slight derail, sorry about that :)
/derail off and back to topic..
Pretty good idea to add some AA that gave our burn disk and BA a longer duration, this is not gonna change alot of thing for us in group content cause mobs go down quick but in raid it's gonna be much more effectiveness on our dps
i think un-linked EF and BF can be a good solution too on long fight
and i still think they should un-linked our spell like it was before but that's not Elidroth concern :P
I did some half hour parses on my beast against a 98 level dummy this weekend. I used self focus/sv/se and unrivaled. Since wildwaters only has about 2600 aa I reset them and bought all melee aa. Then I did 30 minutes of melee and then 30 minutes of bestial with freeze buffs. The average hit didnt quite double.
Now that was just pure melee with no extra mods and no pet.
Thinking about how beastlords burn you'd have to bump that 100% all skills mod up quite a bit to make enough of a difference to call it burst dps. You'd have to bump it up to the point where it would cost you damage to nuke while under bestial alignment.
Why not combine the mod on bestial with a spell oriented damage mod and just give us one more ability? Being able to use bestial alignment, empathic fury and another aa would put us about where we'd need to be I think.
Maybe a 1 minute and 20 second long ability that increases Increases All Skills Damage Modifier by 150%, the minumum damage by 150% and a spell component that increases all spells chance to crit and a chance to increase the damage done. Call it Feral Infusion or something.
That would fix our burst issues without us having to change how we dps to encompass higher melee mods.
Quote from: wildwaters on May 17, 2010, 12:46:24 AM
I did some half hour parses on my beast against a 98 level dummy this weekend. I used self focus/sv/se and unrivaled. Since wildwaters only has about 2600 aa I reset them and bought all melee aa. Then I did 30 minutes of melee and then 30 minutes of bestial with freeze buffs. The average hit didnt quite double.
Now that was just pure melee with no extra mods and no pet.
Thinking about how beastlords burn you'd have to bump that 100% all skills mod up quite a bit to make enough of a difference to call it burst dps. You'd have to bump it up to the point where it would cost you damage to nuke while under bestial alignment.
Why not combine the mod on bestial with a spell oriented damage mod and just give us one more ability? Being able to use bestial alignment, empathic fury and another aa would put us about where we'd need to be I think.
Maybe a 1 minute and 20 second long ability that increases Increases All Skills Damage Modifier by 150%, the minumum damage by 150% and a spell component that increases all spells chance to crit and a chance to increase the damage done. Call it Feral Infusion or something.
That would fix our burst issues without us having to change how we dps to encompass higher melee mods.
Uping BA to the point where we would pick not caste spells would be OP. it would also not play into who we are. we melee / cast If i wanted to just cast I would of made a caster and if I wanted to just melee I would have made a pure melee. tuning one side or the other is not a path I would want to go down.
If you read my post above you would see I asked for 3rd spire to be changed to a Spell Focus so that it would stack with EF / BA. adding this would bump our spell dps but as it stand the DPS from our spells are not that bad
Maybe a 1 minute and 20 second long ability that increases Increases All Skills Damage Modifier by 150%, the minumum damage by 150% and a spell component that increases all spells chance to crit and a chance to increase the damage done. Call it Feral Infusion or something.
if you check with other dps most BURN disc are less then 1 min long asking for longer disc to me is not Burn it a duration disc. having BA/EF/BF all changed to 1 min is plenty. Also I would prefer to rework our current AA rather then adding another button to click. I have enough to click that I can't get them all in before other refresh
Keep in mind we are not ment to be top dps. yes our burn needs improvement but making it too high and it will be unbalanced and over kill
I'm ok with upping BA and EF, even if it means choosing not to cast while discing. Really I think we are there already and it will get worse with higher ratio weapons. Right now I focus more on insta-dots when under disc. A long term fix would be to make all our nukes instant as well.
BA and EF adjustments are the most straightforward fixes, as they just require a single value change with no code support.
And Wildwaters I think the reason you are not seeing exactly 100% damage mod is that the boost does not apply to damage bonus, or something like that. I remember when testing GBA that the % increase was a little less than stated and I think it tied back to damage bonus. Was a long time ago and I don't have my spreadsheet in front of me.
Quote from: Bumkus on May 17, 2010, 11:07:05 PM
BA and EF adjustments are the most straightforward fixes, as they just require a single value change with no code support.
Has one small problem.
Quote from: Elidroth on May 12, 2010, 05:51:03 PM
Keep in mind I'm limited to working within the AA system. Spells/Discs need to go through Aristo for adjustments.
So changes to BA and FoS maybe?
Quote from: Sikkem on May 17, 2010, 11:15:44 PM
Quote from: Bumkus on May 17, 2010, 11:07:05 PM
BA and EF adjustments are the most straightforward fixes, as they just require a single value change with no code support.
Has one small problem.
Quote from: Elidroth on May 12, 2010, 05:51:03 PM
Keep in mind I'm limited to working within the AA system. Spells/Discs need to go through Aristo for adjustments.
So changes to BA and FoS maybe?
Sorry. Good catch. Your right that EF is not an AA.
So yea, BA for sure. FoS is interesting and I had not thought about that.
So, increase BA %
Add something useful to FoS besides ATK, like overhaste. This lasts 8 tics, so FoS would be enough to cover duration of BA and EF. Using FoS would allow them to spread out the burst over a slightly longer period than if they just jacked up BA all by itself.
We would need to be careful not to add mods to FoS that are availible through Glyphs, Circle of Power Clicks, Shm Epic, etc, otherwise it won't end up being a raid burster at all.
Quote from: Inphared on May 12, 2010, 03:18:44 PM
Alternatively we could ask for something much like the Monks/Berserkers have, Calanin's Synergy/Overpowering Frenzy. Foray damage, or Feral Swipe damage, that applies a debuff that makes those abilities hit even harder.
could add a very large triple attack mod to FoS
We should also be looking at a frenzied burnout type AA with a pet only massive damage mod+other stuff. Fastish (7-15minute) refresh and short (18-48second) duration.
Edit: I still support my ideas from page 1. However, a +crit chance change to 3rd spire would not be a terrible idea. When I use 7th (once a night, for the spell crit chance) I get "competitive" but still behind other classes; without 7th the gap widens noticeably. A 3rd spire with a nice spell crit chance would make the "competitive" numbers available much more often.
Also, spell casting is not negative dps. Yowl is getting close, but nukes are definitely a large portion of our dps still. I get a solid 20-35% of my <3minute burn dps, 2-5k depending on group / buffs / abilities used, from nukes.
if were looking at 10 min disc .. I say 3rd spire being switch over to a casting mod would be my #1 choice that way it stacks with everything .
I would be overjoyed if 3rd spire got copy/pasted into exactly what mage/druid first spire are, 15/18/21 % crit chance each rank. Lucy doesn't show any stacking conflicts either.
EDIT: Also, Shadowknights and Rangers both also have ways they give themselves +20% spell crit chance (first spire and auspice).
Quote from: Hzath on May 18, 2010, 10:16:49 PM
I would be overjoyed if 3rd spire got copy/pasted into exactly what mage/druid first spire are, 15/18/21 % crit chance each rank. Lucy doesn't show any stacking conflicts either.
Circle of Power effect already increases chance to crit with melee and spells. CoP is availible even on OMM weapon now. Do increased crit % stack?
In short, if the spell crit chance is in a different slot the +% will stack. More details here:
http://www.eqmagetower.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=184
I linked it a while back, but I can't remember which area.
When Elidroth mentioned AA I immediately thought of Feral Swipe and threw in Foray as an afterthought. I only mentioned them because of their 30 sec reuse timers.
Since we are limiting to AA and burst dps, let's look at Bestial Alignment or an alternative to it that works in the same principle as bestial frenzy/empathic fury. Give it a 5 or 10 min reuse timer.
Or
Look at our shaman side and find a comfortable caster-type burst ability.
Some ability that say doubles or triples our melee or spell damage output for 12 secs reused every 5 mins for double or 6 secs every 10 mins for triple.
If we ask for a 10 minute reuse timer, the ability won't do a whole heck of a lot. Especially if it's melee based. And, there's no real burst dps ability that shammies have for casting. They are endurance, not speed.
FoS is already 10-12 min reuse is all i was saying
Quote from: Khauruk on May 19, 2010, 02:00:25 AM
If we ask for a 10 minute reuse timer, the ability won't do a whole heck of a lot. Especially if it's melee based. And, there's no real burst dps ability that shammies have for casting. They are endurance, not speed.
A couple weeks ago I would of agreed with you. Now that they are toying with a mechanism to reset disc during raids I'm not so sure.
The ability to enhance our spell damage is something we've always lacked. With so many other classes already having said ability (most already as a spire), the acknowledgment that our burst dps IS lacking, and the fact that we have a long time to wait until next expansion I think we should push hard for changing third spire as our proposal for a mid-expansion booster.
Admittedly, some of the melee ideas would be rather large and I can see the need for major tuning. I can respect the decision to wait for next expansion's beta cycle for major changes.
However, the +spell crit chance is a different scenario. As I said previously, multiple classes already have this ability and some have an identical version to what we're looking for, druids/mages have the ability to stack twincast with their large crit chance for huge gains. Rangers/SKs have less powerful abilities than twincast that also stack with their +spell crit chance AA. We have absolutely no way to enhance our spell damage without outside help, the two striking exceptions are Intenisty of the Resolute (7th year vet reward) and Glyph of the Cataclysm. Anyone can buy a glyph if they choose for 5 AAs, so that is fair enough in my mind. Intensity however, takes no skill, effort, or in game competence to acquire...just money and time spent. As I said before, when stacking 7th on top of other discs for the +crit chance we close the gap with the other pack of dps classes, but it's a damned shame that a large portion of our population doesn't even have another option to gain this effect when it's available to so many others.
I've started to ramble, but I think someone articulate should pm elidroth a request (plea?) to at least consider making SOME (this) change before the next expansion launches.
Not sure what we would tell him Hzath, given we don't really know the parameters we are working towards.
1. What is target dps increase, or more specifically, what is target overall dps for an end-game bst (since this is who this change is mainly directed to help.
2. What is burn timeframe
3. What is the max we could add to group level bst before this is considered overpowered.
Here are main points I noted would work for burst:
1. Possibly increase BA
2. Use FoS if gains need to be smeared over longer timeframe
3. Redo Third Spire to be a major Nuke focus
There were lots of other posts about warder dps boosts, foray increases, etc, but they would affect sustained dps too much.
There were also some post involving new clicked abilities, but I really think we should tune what we got before adding a new button.
I'm trying to boil this down into something even someone with an ogre sized brain can wrap their head around.
Other than BA, FoS and 3rd Spire, did I miss any other existing AA abilities that were mentioned?
What about more or less direct copy of mages Frenzied Burnout? Set the reuse long enough that the dps amount can be alot, set it to scale against whatever Enhanced Minion level the caster has?
Quote from: bradam on May 20, 2010, 06:54:05 PM
What about more or less direct copy of mages Frenzied Burnout? Set the reuse long enough that the dps amount can be alot, set it to scale against whatever Enhanced Minion level the caster has?
A - many of us are against pet-based solutions.
B - it would have to be absolutely sickeningly insane boost to our pets...it would need to boost our pets to at least 20x their current dps level for whatever duration.
C - there would be a shitstorm from the mage community
D - this is then itemization based (though getting pet foci is easier than before). It also would require lots of individual tuning, and very possibly requires code support to get it working. Two of these alone, if true, make it far less likely.
Ok, so if no new click or borrowed mage abilities, then we are still at the following
1. Increase BA
2. Use FoS if gains need to be smeared over longer timeframe
3. Redo Third Spire to be a major Nuke focus
This list is fine. If Elidroth does not come back here to comment, then we can PM it to him. Depending on what his target boost is, we can start suggesting specific numbers.
I'm sure we could keep swirlin' this around the pot, but we're at the point where we need feedback.
Quote from: Bumkus on May 20, 2010, 09:27:59 PM
2. Use FoS if gains need to be smeared over longer timeframe
I want to add, it's more than just the duration of Frenzy of Spirit it's that it's an existing click we have. It's degraded in usefulness, so rather than give us a completely new click to boost our dps, give a beefed up second rank (doing whatever it is you decide) so we don't have new clicks to worry about. The in game description is so vague just about any modifier could be added.
Just a thought here - how about an aa that when activated you will cast 4 pets with the yowl line of pets everytime while its active - effect could last from 1 to 3 min and recast could be 10 to 15 min, and you would be able to use it even if warder was dead.
Quote from: Lerash on May 24, 2010, 08:57:25 PM
Just a thought here - how about an aa that when activated you will cast 4 pets with the yowl line of pets everytime while its active - effect could last from 1 to 3 min and recast could be 10 to 15 min, and you would be able to use it even if warder was dead.
I sorry but the last thing I want is another AA to click I rather return the aa we go then add to the list for things to click
'
As said for the ywol line would love an aa to up the % chance for 4 to spawn but would prefer it as a pasive thing.. say 2% per aa and 10 ranks. that would make it a 40ish % chance to spawn 4. but this is about burst DPS and so that to me would be more for a diffrent topic.
Quote from: Lerash on May 24, 2010, 08:57:25 PM
Just a thought here - how about an aa that when activated you will cast 4 pets with the yowl line of pets everytime while its active - effect could last from 1 to 3 min and recast could be 10 to 15 min, and you would be able to use it even if warder was dead.
Very good suggestion, it's been asked for in the past but if no one mentioned it in this thread great catch because it would work very nicely.
Quote from: Lerash on May 24, 2010, 08:57:25 PM
Just a thought here - how about an aa that when activated you will cast 4 pets with the yowl line of pets everytime while its active - effect could last from 1 to 3 min and recast could be 10 to 15 min, and you would be able to use it even if warder was dead.
I wouldn't mind a new activated aa at all it it were like this, I very much like this idea, would be a nice boost to have during burns; I would just add this aa to a hotkey firing different aas / discs for a burn situation, make such an aa last the same as GBA and could fire both + AoWarders + Feralgia/Yowl at the same time with just one hit :P
Of course an extra rank of BA that granted significant spell increases wouldn't be a bad idea. It would mean we would have to click shit less.
So anyone received any feedback on possible directions/limitations etc?
Or is this also dead in the water like so many before it?
Quote from: Elidroth on May 12, 2010, 07:26:26 PM
Also, one of the issues we have is Beastlords (in our testing) seem to be better off in the group game, but in a bad way in the raid game. The problem of course is, adding value to the raid side, without blowing the group side out of balance.
It's absolutely on my radar, but not something I can likely make drastic changes to until the expansion.
That's all I'm aware of. I think we're just stuck twiddling our thumbs for a few more months.
Quote from: Camikazi on May 10, 2010, 06:06:54 PM
Quote from: Sharrien on May 10, 2010, 02:52:04 PM
Ferociousness of the Pack - short refresh skill attack that scales up based on PCs on the target's hate list similar to the way Jolt of Many scales up for number of pets
I'd rather have that Fero of the Pack based on pets as well, or it won't be all that useful for soloer or duoer, while if it is based on pets we can use it to full effectiveness alone (Yolw, AotW and Warder) making it useful to all who have it and not just certain people. Other then that I like the Idea, I like Skill Attacks since our discs boost them too.
I'm more inclined to want the potential jolt of many skill attack to work off of pets, but either way is fine. I really like the idea, and being melee based and scaling up with more pets (or players, like raids have) it would definitely be a burst type ability so I copied it over.