Class balance "discussions"

[Argach]

I like wandering through all the class boards when I'm bored to check what's going on in the different communities, what they hate other classes doing and what are their strenghts and weaknesses etc. But finding any useful info from the boards is increasingly difficult due to the fact ~80% of everything is whining about some other class doing stuff better.

It's a bit different on every board - not always so much a class thing even (as two message boards for the same class can be different) but an atmosphere on the boards. No matter how polite, moderated and well-mannered messageboard though, the class envy, demands for more and plain whining are there. I can understand the basic idea why people do it, but so many people are asking for so ridiculous things it just gives me ulcer to read all the junk people post.

I'm not even claiming this place is stainless, pure and clean of all that - perhaps slightly better than average but that's about it. And that's just because we are somewhat well off at the moment. Seeing the amount of venomous "nerf everything and gimme godly powers rawr!" -mentality posts spouted by classes that are more powerful than us makes me afraid how these boards will fare if ever we'll be hit with a real direct or indirect nerf.

I'd make some examples but that'd just bring class_X and class_Y trolls here to shout their righterouss anger.  :roll:

[Argach]

Bah, can't edit out my typos.  :cry:

[Whiptail_Warclaw]

80% of everything is whining about some other class doing stuff better.

... and don't forget all the Druid love on other class boards. I have to say that this is one of the few class boards where there doesn't seem to be much "Class hate". It's a refreshing change from the Cleric board I visit. (I have a 30 Cleric Alt). Great info, but some of the whining is laughable.

[Lorathir]

I've never understood class envy. I think I read on .com a reply to a thread like this, where the poster (can't remember who) likened class envy to two children with similar toys. The one child had a faulty toy, and when he saw the other playing with his, he broke that one out of spite.

If I saw another class getting powerful/cool abilities etc I'd be more inclined to say "Good for them." rather than "Argh, no fair! Let's post and whine about them till we puke."

I say stfu and get on with things. Look to your own class and what needs fixing, not to other classes and what needs breaking.

[Gnarloth]

It cracks me up when people complain about how good another class is... ahhhh that's why you have 8 character slots... go make an alt or 7. If you like your alt better.... so be it.

[mac173]

It cracks me up when people complain about how good another class is... ahhhh that's why you have 8 character slots... go make an alt or 7. If you like your alt better.... so be it.

Amen.

I have 4 BL's (Ogre, Iksar, Vah Shir, Troll on FV) , Cleric, Pally, War, and Chanter.

I alternate the alts when I get curious about other classes. Havent yet tried an monk or a Druid, but I will eventually.

[Toiler]

I think the solo classes complain less, simply because of our personalities. We tend to do things on our own, without the need of approval from others, without the responsibility of taking care of others, and without relying on others to get things done. Plus my pet is never AFK when I need him.

I've actually never run across a beastlord/Necro/Druid that doesn't solo or duo (with a longtime partner) at least 50% or more of the time. Don't know many mages so not sure of how much a solo class they are.

Frankly I'm happy we're not the best at any one thing, and that 80% of the players have no idea what SD does or that we can slow. LDoN has enlighten some (ie. generating bitch boards on some of our specific class abilities), since we are force to group to get some of those beastlord spells.

I read other class boards for camp information or to get a chuckle at the latest class comparison thread.  :o

[Grune]

I've never understood class envy.

Well, coming from my point of view as a retired cleric of 60 levels, it's hard to explain unless you've played a class that has problems. I can see the fine line of the argument. One being a class really does need fixing/tweaking, and the other being that most people will never be satisfied with their class unless they can kill a dragon in 1 hit.

As a cleric, yes there was alot of class envy with the druid class. The worst argument ever was the "well go make a druid then". That's garbage. If I wanted to play a druid, I woulda made one. The envy wasn't in that I wanted to be like a druid, the envy was in their utility.

Unless you've played a cleric, and I don't mean 2 boxing another class, or getting PLed by friends/guild, then it's really hard to "get it". For so many levels, druids and shaman CAN do a good enough job at healing that you are completely replaceable in most groups. Everyone wants the safest and fastest exp possible, so the cleric's massive healing power generally isn't needed for most places. And on top of that, both druids and shaman bring a TONNE of extra abilities to the table. Clerics are extremely limited in what they can do. And they are extremely dependant on other classes. So when you can't get a group as a cleric, what do you do? Tradeskill? I don't pay $20 a month to tradeskill. And I can't solo to save my life. Hell, if I can get root to stick on a green monster that is chasing me I'm happy. And yes, clerics get munched by green monsters.

But now on the other hand, once a cleric gets to the highest levels in the game, there isn't a single class that is more necessary. So there, you can see why other classes are envious. You only need so many druids, so many shaman etc. But the more clerics, the better. So you have this horrible combination of clerics being utterly dependant on other classes to help them progress, then having all these other classes dependant on clerics for them to progress at the end game. That is poor class balance, and it makes it extremely unfair to everyone.

And there were ALOT of dark times for clerics. When SoL came out, and AA exp was released, it was horrible. Warriors and monks could solo like there was no tomorrow. Everyone could solo, and they did, because it was the best exp gains. Except clerics. I remember tryingto duo with a ranger friend of mine in Fungus Grove. I was so useless to him that I actually slowed his exp gain and he didn't ask me to join him there again.

And let me clarify this right off. By soloing, I don't mean killing 1 mob. I mean soloing for reasonable exp gains. A cleric can solo 1 monster, maybe 2 in a row. But then he is OOM and down to 1 bubble of life (literaly!!). That is no way to play a video game. A game should be fun, not tedious.

Sure. If you don't like it, get a group. But what if you can't get a group? And don't say that clerics are necesarry for a group, because they are not. Druids and shaman can heal well enough to do the job, and bring more to the group.

The point to all this is, that there IS class imbalance. With a system as un-dynamic as Everquest, where everyone is class X with skill Y, and the only seperation is what equipment you have, class balance is vitaly important. My time is precious to me. I leveled a cleric from level 1 to 60 and had I known what the class was going to be like from day 1, with a proper class description, I never would have made one. To me, that time was wasted, aside from the friends I met, which I could have met by playing any class. So if my poor choice in class results in days and days of wasted time, and money, and all of this resulting from a poorly designed gaming system, then yes I have class envy. Not because I want to be that class, but because I want the versatility of that class.

Bottom line is, EVERY class should have been able to solo, group and raid to a certain degree. We are all paying the same amount to play this game every month, and you shouldn't have to level a character up to level 40 or 50 just to find out the class is so specialized you've wasted 20 days played on a character that can't progress anymore.

[TheOriginalGronker]

Bottom line is, EVERY class should have been able to solo, group and raid to a certain degree. We are all paying the same amount to play this game every month, and you shouldn't have to level a character up to level 40 or 50 just to find out the class is so specialized you've wasted 20 days played on a character that can't progress anymore.

So, basically, class envy is the result of lazy people that would rather every class be the same than have every class have differences, and you actually have to make a decision to get abilities A,B, and C but not have X, Y, Z that some other class has.  Lazy because after spending however many months playing your current character that you are bored with, you find it easier to whine and groan about how clerics should get track and snare rather than making a druid and play him/her for a few months.

[Oneiromancer]

II've actually never run across a beastlord/Necro/Druid that doesn't solo or duo (with a longtime partner) at least 50% or more of the time. Don't know many mages so not sure of how much a solo class they are.

Beastlord here, of course, and for the last month I have perhaps soloed 5% of the time.  I love being in groups...when I was in my 30's-high 40's I almost exclusively did LDoNs, and now I'm always trying for a Planes group.  I can solo, of course, and I do so when I absolutely can't find a group, but I don't really enjoy it.  To me, the whole point of EQ is the social aspect, so that's what I crave in my play style, at least at the moment.

While my beastlord was "growing up", I did indeed mostly solo or duo.  I moved to my server to be with an RL friend, who created a new cleric just to duo with me.  But eventually our schedules got so disparate that I outlevelled him, and he let the cleric sit in order to concentrate on his main more.  However, considering how fast those levels went, I don't really count that as too much of my playing style in terms of how much soloing or duoing I have done.

When I start grinding AAs, and especially when I get my new pet at 62, I will probably solo a bit more, because to me the reward will be a bit more worth the loss of socialization.  But I think I will still always be LFG during those times.

Game on,

The Oneiromancer

[Grune]

So, basically, class envy is the result of lazy people

I wouldn't call logging on every night and going from zone to zone for 3-4 hours looking for a group lazy. If your class literally can't solo, then what option do you have? You call classes balanced when people are forced to make a character class they don't want to play, just to have any sort of satisfaction with a game they pay money to play every month?

I never said clerics needed snares, nukes, manaburn, mage epic pets and taunt. There are ways of ensuring all classes have the skills necesary to allow for reasonable solo, group and raid skills. Call them different names, give them different abilities and limitation.

And yes, in an ideal gaming system, there would be only 1 class. Everyone would be defined by the skills they chose and the progression routes they chose, rather than some pre-packaged cookie cutter nonsense.

And yes I think clerics should get tracking, and safe fall as well. That should be an AA ability, with less of a skillcap, than the parent classes who have those skills. And I also think ALL priest classes should be given a full version of complete heal so this retarded dependancy on a single class can end once and for all.

[Kashmiir Battlekat]

Balance and Dependency are 2 sperate issues.

Balance - Classes are well balanced. Balance in EQ does not mean "A Warrior can solo the same thing a Necromancer can solo". Do keep that in mind. Where there is a 'give' there is a 'take' in all Claases.

Dependency - This is the 'key' to making Everquest a social game. If you are required to have XX to accomplish ZZ then ZZ will seek out XX. Etc.. etc...

The game as it stands now I believe is well balanced. A few tweaks here and there would suffice, but over-all I believe they have done an outstanding job from these 2 perspectives.

[Grune]

Balance in EQ does not mean "A Warrior can solo the same thing a Necromancer can solo".

I never said that a warrior needs to have the same abilities as a necromancer. What I said is that ALL classes need to have similar options, to a lesser or greater degree, open to them.

Warriors are balanced? Sure, until they can't find a group. Then can they solo? Unless they have retardo equipment they can't. Is this fair to the player? Absolutely not. Should he then be told to go make a paladin instead? Or any other class? No, that short sighted.

What if instead, there was a zone where only warriors could zone in. While in this zone, warriors could bind wounds to full, regardless if they have the AAs or not, and every mob drops bandages. There are weapons that can be bought from vendors in the zone, or drop off monsters that proc certain effects, and are only useable in that zone, much like a manastone. Things like snare, stun, root etc. Tune the mobs to the warrior class specifically, easily single pullable. Then tweak the exp gain from this so it's not as good as what a warrior could be getting if they were in a normal group. This then allows a warrior to solo, without screwing up game balance, or giving the class added abilities which would give them unfair advantages over other classes.

I just fail to understand why people argue FOR a system that is about as well balanced as the Ozbourne family is stable. Do they function as a "family"? Yes. But only in that "hey there's a train wreck and lots of dead bodies, and I know it's horrific but I can't look away" sort of way. It is not a good system, and it never has been. People just seem to always fall back on the same arguments and trains of thought that we can't give classes all these abilities or it will dilute the game. So don't. But there are alternatives which allow people to play the game in ways that normally aren't open to them, without screwing things up.

[Elyias Steelfang]

Well my main used to be a cleric.  First real toon to get over 20 and played it all the way up to 61.  

Shortly after PoP came out I made my bst as an alt and fell in love with the class and ended up changing mains.

Now my cleric is by no means "uber" or anything like that.

The guild I am in was just getting its feet wet in Luclin raids when I switched.   Cleric has full Skyshrine gear and mostly Velious equipment with a few updated pieces bought in bazaar.

I soloed while LFG all the time.  Did I solo as good as a wizard, bst, necro etc...?  No, but I was no where near OOM and 1 bub of health after 2 mobs.  At 60 I would get an AA about every 2 to 2 1/2  hours.  Not great by any means but not horrible either for a cleric.  Some nights I went all night soloing.  Others I got groups.

So yah I brought up my cleric non PL'ed, Non botted, and so forth.  And I still say to this day that most "class balance" discussions are nothing but whining.  Every class is different and every class can do some things others cannot.  Its what makes the game what it is and keeps the variety in it.  Want a game where everything is balanced but with the cost that every class is basically the same try DAoC and just see how damn boring it is.

Class balancing is not needed.  Fixing some classes is, that I will agree with. Why should I be in "balance" with every class in the game.  All classes have strengths and weeknesses.

If something is wrong with your class come up with a viable solution and e-mail/feedback it and get as many others as you can to do the same.  But when people start saying Class X gets this whay cant I get the same or something close thats just whiny envy imo and nothing else.  Anytime you bring in another class to prove how faulty yours is you have already lost the arguement in my eyes.

[TerjynPovar]

I never said that a warrior needs to have the same abilities as a necromancer. What I said is that ALL classes need to have similar options, to a lesser or greater degree, open to them.

Warriors are balanced? Sure, until they can't find a group. Then can they solo? Unless they have retardo equipment they can't. Is this fair to the player? Absolutely not. Should he then be told to go make a paladin instead? Or any other class? No, that short sighted.

What if instead, there was a zone where only warriors could zone in. While in this zone, warriors could bind wounds to full, regardless if they have the AAs or not, and every mob drops bandages. There are weapons that can be bought from vendors in the zone, or drop off monsters that proc certain effects, and are only useable in that zone, much like a manastone. Things like snare, stun, root etc. Tune the mobs to the warrior class specifically, easily single pullable. Then tweak the exp gain from this so it's not as good as what a warrior could be getting if they were in a normal group. This then allows a warrior to solo, without screwing up game balance, or giving the class added abilities which would give them unfair advantages over other classes.

I just fail to understand why people argue FOR a system that is about as well balanced as the Ozbourne family is stable. Do they function as a "family"? Yes. But only in that "hey there's a train wreck and lots of dead bodies, and I know it's horrific but I can't look away" sort of way. It is not a good system, and it never has been. People just seem to always fall back on the same arguments and trains of thought that we can't give classes all these abilities or it will dilute the game. So don't. But there are alternatives which allow people to play the game in ways that normally aren't open to them, without screwing things up.

Making a zone of all undercons so that warriors who are too gimpy to solo now can solo is somehow better than the current system?

I got news for you bub.  Every class can solo.  I played a Cleric up to the upper 50s, started on the day EQ came out...so you can imagine how much twinking I had.  I was using a Screaming Mace, Cracked Darkwood Shield, and bronze armor at level 30 for chriminies' sake.  And yet, I could solo my cleric (and did) up to the day I quit playing.  And now you are claiming that you as a cleric can't solo NOW with vastly superior equipment easily obtainable?

Well, gee, if you are THAT bad at playing your cleric...no wonder you are complaining that it's not fair.