Class balance "discussions"

[Bryc]

You call classes balanced when people are forced to make a character class they don't want to play, just to have any sort of satisfaction with a game they pay money to play every month?

Yeah, but if you truly envy the other class, it must have a ton of things that appeal to you. How could it NOT be fun? It would, by definition, be more fun than the class you're dissatisfied with. Seriously.

What's more likely, is that you envy SOME things about the other class, yet like SOME things about the class you play. Well yes, that actually is sort of balanced.

[Mtinie]

Soloing and Soloing effectively are two different things.  Anyone who says otherwise is delusional or ignoring the facts.

We are lucky -- we as beastlords have utility and soloability.  Many other classes do not.

I think the solo classes complain less, simply because of our personalities. We tend to do things on our own, without the need of approval from others, without the responsibility of taking care of others, and without relying on others to get things done. Plus my pet is never AFK when I need him.

Solo classes complain less because there is less to complain about.  It has nothing to do with doing things on our own, it has everything to do with the fact that we are comfortable with the roles we have established for ourselves.

[katahn]

All classes should, optimally, be able to have one specialized role, one thing they are best at, and then 1 or 2 secondary roles they can fill if their primary role isn't needed, or the secondary role is needed more.

Beastlords:
Primary: DPS
Secondary #1: Utility (Slows, Spiritual Light, Buffs)
Secondary #2: Tanking, pet-mezzing

Why can't this be the model for every other class in the game?  

Cleric:
Primary: Support (Healing/Buffing/Rezzing)
Secondary: None
Secondary: None

Ok, not none, but very weak nukes level for level.  No real ability to tank (you'd think that wearing plate mail they'd tank better than us).  Low weapon skills.  Limited nuking power and are out-nuked against undead in comparison to what druids can do vs. all mobs.  Widely in demand, but not a well balanced class.

Beastlords are an awesome class not because they are godlike, but because they have a strong primary role in groups/raids, and their combination of that and their secondary roles lets them solo quite nicely.  I'd like to see SOE move away from this asinine idea that classes have to be specialists good for one thing, and realize that in a grouping game, you want to maximize the odds a group can have fun and adventures with an odd mix.

[TerjynPovar]

Soloing and Soloing effectively are two different things.  Anyone who says otherwise is delusional or ignoring the facts.

This is a non-Sequitor.  Soloing effectively is an abstract concept that changes from person to person and from time to time, and thus cannot be argued with.  As a result, it's delusional or ignoring the facts to try and claim that it's not soloing you want, but effective soloing.

I get XP faster in a group than I do solo.  Can Beastlords not "solo effectively" as a result?

[Elyias Steelfang]

Cleric:
Primary: Support (Healing/Buffing/Rezzing)
Secondary: None
Secondary: None

Wow I could jump all over this.  But quite honestly if someone is so narrow minded in what clerics can/cannot do then why even bother.  Just keep on whining it seems thats what most want to do anyway.

[TheOriginalGronker]

I never said that a warrior needs to have the same abilities as a necromancer. What I said is that ALL classes need to have similar options, to a lesser or greater degree, open to them.

Yer missing the point.  If every class has similar options, you really have one class.  There are different classes to serve the differing needs of players and there is an attempt to cover alot of variety, without overpowering any one class, and all fitting in to the game world.  There might be a few holes that haven't been filled, but thats the way it goes.

You want a 'cleric' that can solo as effectively as some of the classes better suited to soloing?  Well then you can always play a BST as a cleric if you want - grab a mace and a shield, mem up your hp buffs and heal spells and go for it.  Or you can realize that you wont be able to do really well as a cleric soloing all the way to 65+ and be happy with remaining in your 40s and lower 50s.

The point you are missing is that the online game that you happen to pick wasn't designed FOR you and thus you have to find in it what you want to get out of it.  If there is nothing, pick a different game (as opposed to whining that it wasn't designed for you).    If there is something but, whoops, you made a rogue and its not what you expected, pick something else and play on rather than "awww I put 30 hours of work into this rogue I wanna be able to cast CH".  Its a good idea to get into the habit of taking a different route from scratch rather than trying to direct the path that you took anyways.

[Bryc]

We are lucky -- we as beastlords have utility and soloability.

I don't think "lucky" is the right word. Luck would be if you were randomly assigned a class, and your number came up BST. We chose to play a class that has utility and soloability. Some of us gave up a major investment in another class. All of us invested the time and effort needed to level and gear our BSTs.

We solo well because we decided to play BSTs. A Rogue can't solo because he decided to play a ROG. There are no external factors involved, no "luck".

Monks and Mages may have a beef. Through no fault of their own, they lost their soloability. That, I would call unlucky.

[TerjynPovar]

Mages can still solo, no matter how many times people spout about how they can't.

Magicians are a prime example of why I said you cannot talk about the ability to "solo effectively".  Magicians used to be solo gods.  Now that they are relegated to average soloers, they whine, moan, and complain about how they are no longer "Effective soloers", even though they still can solo, and solo better than about half the classes.[/list]

[Bryc]

No one said Mages couldn't solo at ALL. It's a matter of degree. Remove our heals and slows and WE could still solo. Slowly. Carefully. Picking the right mobs. But we could do it. Would that make it OK? Would we all be happy that we could, technically, still solo?

No.

Making poor decisions on your class is one thing. Picking the RIGHT class for you, and having the game change around you, sucks. Therefore, Rogues have little basis for complaining about their solo power. Mages, on the other hand, have a legitimate gripe.

[TerjynPovar]

In the places I get the greatest XP per hour Magicians can not only solo, but solo faster than I can.

What Magicians want is the ability to solo in Tier 2/3/EP, *without* resorting to agro-Kite soloing, which again they do better than I do.

But I guess they've stated their skewed view of the world so much that they are starting to pick up believers, such as yourself.

[Bryc]

Well, I'm not a believer per se, just an observer. One of my good friends is a 63 Mage, I've known her since we were level 24. I've seen her tactics adjust from "pet tank and toss in some nukes" to "hope you burn down the mob before your pet dies, oops you got aggro". I've seen her recently give up soloing, not out of protest, just out of lack of spots to do it in.

I agree that the "wanting a DC pet to solo in Tier 3" is a bit much, but I don't think Tier 1 would be asking too much. I can almost chain-solo blood ravens, pet-cleric/melee. She has a good chance of losing to one, and will certainly be LOM after.

However, if you know of good spots for Mage soloing (esp. faster than you), then I withdraw the blanket statement. But where?

(man talk about a thread derail )  :)

[Cyphen Wilder]

I've seen her recently give up soloing, not out of protest, just out of lack of spots to do it in.

So it is lack on content in game that allows her not be able to solo and not class balance?  Not a very good derail since it addresses another issue, not the one at hand.   :wink:

You call classes balanced when people are forced to make a character class they don't want to play, just to have any sort of satisfaction with a game they pay money to play every month?

Last time I checked, SOE wasn't forcing you to do anything.  Also, I am pretty sure it has been since EQ Classic, that in the description of classes to choose from in the EQ Manual it has always listed not only the strengths and weaknesses of classes, BUT also the role they play within the game as well.  Choosing to pick a cleric means you will have the godly heals, and one of the most sought after melee buffs (virt/hov), but at the cost of less ability to fight for yourself or defend yourself.

All in all, I see no problem with the way the game is balanced amoung the classes.  I have my beastlord, warrior, and a shaman.  Each has their own strengths and weaknesses that can be used to an advantage in their own way.  Come to think of it, has this not always been in the roleplaying genre?  From tabletop gaming to D&D?  I mean there was never a time that I can remember that a cloth covered wizard was going to be able to melee a mob, but it was sure gonna be able to damage the hell out of it with spells while a warrior held it up.  There was never a time that a cleric was going to outdamage a warrior, yet the warrior sure as hell was not going to have the time to heal while fighting.  The classes are set-up to allow for weaknesses of one class to be filled by the strenght of others.  And in those situations where a class may have an high ability to solo (necro), they are still limited to experience the full content of the game unless they end up grouping.

[TerjynPovar]

However, if you know of good spots for Mage soloing (esp. faster than you), then I withdraw the blanket statement. But where?

My fastest XP rates when soloing are pretty much all in Luclin, or when agro kiting in Tier 2+ PoP.

The places where I solo in Luclin do not hit hard enough that a Magician cannot pet tank...and since their DPS blows mine away, it's not a real contest.  Note that in most of these places I don't even need to slow, my warder can tank them anyway.  And if I do need to heal, it's not more than once per fight, which eliminates the pet healing advantage we have over Magicians.

So from where I'm coming from they kill the easier stuff faster, and scoff at agro-kiting which is something I have to do in the tougher zones Magicians want to be able to just pet tank.  And, just to clarify, I don't use Hobble of spirits to agro-tank either, too unreliable, and it slows me down.

I will admit my view is probably skewed by two things...I'm a decidedly non-uber Beastlord, and the first things I saw Magicians asking for were Dire Charm pets, 65% natural pet mitigation(WTF?) and the like.  But my Magician friends on Povar can and do solo, and they don't complain about it all that much either.

[Grbage]

Most classes can solo somewhat, depending on gear/aa etc... But that doesnt mean they will not have a lot of down time or be getting a lot of xp.  

My original main was a gimp warrior who spent entire days LFG with no luck. We finally got a BL in our guild and I sat back in awe at what he could do. Wasnt to long before my BST became main and I shot to 65, one of the first in my guild. Now, I find soloing boring and would rather sit in PoT fishing LFG.

As a side note, my warrior is much better geared now and can solo some PoJ mobs while LFG for lousy xp or sit in PoT working on his Alcohol Tolerance.

[Bryc]

Thanks, Teryn. I was playing DAOC during Luclin, so I never really got a feel for the camps. I'll go exploring with my Mage friend, see what we find.