Is it OUR fault?

[Kashmiir Battlekat]

There are 3 kinds of people in Everquest:

Those who can obtain.
Those who have attained
Those who wish they could obtain.

If you are casual then likely you fall in to the "Those who wish they could obtain" catagory.

Many Casual Gamers in Everquest feel as though they too should be able to obtain that which is currently out of there reach due to real life matters.

Is it a valid concern? I suppose it is, but on the otherhand offering you the capability to obtain that which 72+ people worked long, hard, sweating, hungry, unwashed hours to obtain easily would demean the hard work those people invested in to getting it.

There will ALWAYS be a caste system in Everquest. There will ALWAYS be Hardcore players and Casual players.

If Casuals wish to close the gap between the hardcore gamer and the casual gamer you would only be hurting yourselves. Hardcore gamers are what drive Everquest and the Development Staff to produce new and exciting encounters which produce loot only the most extreme will ever see.

BUT WHY!?!? WHY CANT WE THE CASUALS HAVE THIS TOO!!!

Because, quite simply, you didnt earn it. Simply saying you 'pay' to play just like everyone else is not a valid arguement. Its HOW you play that matters.

If the most you can do is 15 hours per week in game then you need to set your goals accordingly.

If you play 40+ hours per week then obviously your goals are far different from the 15 hour a week player.

Keep things in perspective is the best advise I can give anyone who plays EQ.


and with that.. I bid you good day :)

[Oneiromancer]

I've been wanting to voice my thoughts on these subjects for a while.  I suppose now is the best time to do this.

When I first came to the server I am on now, it was at the bequest of an RL friend who wanted me to come play with him.  He started up a new cleric, I started up my beastlord, and we had some fun together.  Eventually I had more time to play than he did, in the hours that we could play together at least, and I outpaced him to the point that we couldn't LDoN together any more.  I had made other friends in the meantime, and so I went my own way and joined a family guild while he returned to his lofty EP (at the time) raiding guild ways.  (Now of course we can and do group together and have fun again, but that's not the story.)

I'm a graduate student, in Pacific time, on a European server where most of the American players seem to be Eastern time.  I rarely get home before 7, but for a long time I was playing until midnight or 1 every night.  That's not exactly casual, in my book...although it's not as hardcore as some people, of course.  I levelled quickly, but I also went to see new and interesting places on my own and with my guild.  I can't play as much anymore...school/work and other responsibilities are taking their toll.  But I still play for a few hours every night.

Eventually I started to chafe a little bit against the stagnation of our guild.  I couldn't make the weekly meetings, or the weeknight raids, since they started around 8 or 9 Eastern.  I could make the Sunday raids, but they were practically always to Chardok for the cleric epic.  It was fun, but as Kashmiir points out, the jealousy started to set in.

But it's subsided by now.  I've experienced the sickening elitism of the most "uber".  I've decided that I'm never going to let a game dictate my life--I'm going to play and raid when I want to, because if I'm not having fun, why play?  So I am content that the raiding life is not for me.  I can upgrade myself very nicely with LDoN, as a beastlord I can camp some nice items (I've gotten the FT1 item from Torgiran twice now, although I've given each one to a guildmate instead of selling it), and perhaps eventually with open raids I'll be able to access Tactics...maybe even Sol Ro someday?  Not a priority.

So I think that if I had to put myself as one of the 3 types of players Kash mentions, I'd call myself one who "can obtain"...it's just that my standard isn't as high as the hardcore raiders.  But I'd like to think I'm not in the "wish they could obtain" camp anymore...unless I'm just deluding myself.  Only time will tell, I suppose.

But enough autobiographical information.  I respect Kash's points, and I more or less understand the reasons why SOE focused on higher end raiding guilds.  But really, they went too damn far.  PoP and GoD have a very large percentage of their content totally locked off to the casual gamer...entire zones that we will never ever see.  I know lots of hardcore gamers love this...they get Tactics, Sol Ro, the EPs to themselves, without the level 65 "n00bs" bothering them.  Well, what if anyone over a certain level could enter these zones, be able to fight in the beginning parts, perhaps actually complete some of these fun quests like the Gate necklace or the Manuals (up to Advanced at least)...but the deeper parts of the zone, which perhaps have good experience, named mobs which drop better loot, you need the traditional flag for?  Or something similar...so that the hardcore players get the rewards they deserve, but the casual players don't feel like they wasted money on an expansion where over half of the content is locked out to them.

GoD is worse, of course, not the least because it's been revealed that it was tuned for level 70 characters.  Supposedly OoW is going to have only a few zones where flagging is required.  If all the best loot drops there...fine, let the hardcore players have that, they've earned it.  But I will be much happier, as a casual player, if I can at least see some of these zones without using EQ Zone Viewer.

I think they could have done something close to ideal with LDoN.  If the raids had actually been done correctly...where the hardcore raiders actually did them because the risk/reward ratio was reasonable...then the corresponding ratio of casual to hardcore content might also have been reasonable.  If you got raid LDoN points, then even casual raiding guilds might have some incentive to do them, especially with the smaller number of classes required.  As it is I've been so happy to get "thrown a bone" to go on the two 65 high risk LDoNs I've been on.  Couldn't use any of the drops, but I certainly held my own as a beastlord very well...was the main slower both times.  Died on the second one because the tank died on Enrage and I didn't notice in time to turn off my auto attack...I would have survived for sure if it weren't for that, hehe.

Anyway, I'd like to think that most casual gamers don't want to have everything that the hardcore gamers have given to them on a silver platter.  We just want to not be ignored.  If it's possible for us to reach 65, but to have most of the zones intended for level 65 people closed off to us...that's pretty discouraging.  I'm really hoping that OoW helps in this respect...zones where anyone can experience in, give us some of that much needed variety...and then have the flagged/raiding zones for the players that want to do that.  If they really wanted to, SOE could pull that off.  Here's hoping.

I apologize for the rambling, and really, I promise I'm not bitter...I'm just trying to share some perspective.

Game on,

[Kashmiir Battlekat]

Elemental Planes are not friendly to the casual gamer, even for XP.

Once rings are up and the raid begins forming thte last thing these guilds want are a bunch fo folks 'xping/training' there raid. This can happen very easily.

Generally speaking when a guild zones in to kill the rings most people who are exping either move out of the zone (out of respect) or move VERY far away.

Do you actually think this would happen if this was a group of casuals? Hell no, they would like "We were here first!" and "TRAIN THEM!". People in this day in age in Everquest have very very little 'morals' or 'respect'. I personally have almost totally lost all respect for 'the average player'.

Beggers, no skills, cheaters, trainers, disrespectful, d00dz, immediate saticifaction whiners. This is how I see the 'average' Everquest player these days. I began playing back in July 1999 and was in a well known guild called Fires of Heaven. Back in the day 'honor' mattered. Your reputation meant something. These days? None of these things apply.

About the only saticfaction I get these days is being places where these people are not.

Now Im certainly not going to stand up here on my pedestal and say "ALL NEWBS SUCK!". There are some damned fine non-raiding, newer players out there who have honor and skill, but let me tell you something... you my friend are RARE.

Im old, tired and putting up with the young whipper snapper players just makes me glad I have a place to go that they cant.

Hell sometimes I go to Plane of Time A just for the pure enjoyment of total SILENCE.

---hehe

I just think people need to understand that there are places you will NEVER see and items you will NEVER obtain. Learn to live with this. Always remember there is trickle down... appreciate your high end guilds as when they conquer content you feel the trickle down of mudflation and obtain items you thought you would never see... all because of the high-End Raiders.

Man, getting things off yer chest is kinda neat. Glad I made this forum :)

[Lorathir]

Would you, or any other who raids, want a different focus?

For example - a quest systems that you glean exp and items from? Not the traditional go there, kill that - but something that encompasses say, tradeskills, mini events with questing as the games primary focus - one group encounters? IF a game focused on those things, would the Afterlife style guilds lose interest?

I'm still really interested in opinions on this. Would the end gamers prefer the way the end game is set up atm - large scale guild encounters, or would you prefer end game quest content and two groupable targets?

[Kashmiir Battlekat]

Lorathir,
One of the compelling items in raiding is working together with a large scale force where if even 1 complete heals misses you all die.

Tight knit teamwork on a large scale is fun... sometimes very frustrating, but mostly very fun.

Would I like to see single person, single group and even 2 group instanced zones for both loot and content?

Hell yea, what am I? Retarded? --hehe

[gnomersy]

id like to mention the basic fact that yes the money is the issue here a casual player should get just as much attention note that doesnt mean the same loot from each xpan as the hardcores do once the hardcores start paying per hour of play i will gladly give them a larger right to attention from the devs etc but until that point they can shove it hell i play around 2 hours every day i could play up to 4 but im still level 44 now if i were to play only for xp and grind all the time etc in my 4+ years of play i could have my char up to lvl 65 with hundereds of aa's and be decked in time gear but im not because i play the game at a much more relaxed pace i still pay the fee shouldnt i get an equal amount of content per expansion as the uber players do?

[gnomersy]

also id just like to say that the way the game is running right now mudflation really doesnt exist at all once you get into pop everything in pop and god is nodrop which means raiders are replacing nodrop gear with more nodrop gear which means nothing trickles down oh yeah btw trickle down econnomics suck@$$ it generally ends up with the rich richer the poor poorer and the middle class poorer.

[Kashmiir Battlekat]

id like to mention the basic fact that yes the money is the issue here a casual player should get just as much attention note that doesnt mean the same loot from each xpan as the hardcores do once the hardcores start paying per hour of play i will gladly give them a larger right to attention from the devs etc but until that point they can shove it hell i play around 2 hours every day i could play up to 4 but im still level 44 now if i were to play only for xp and grind all the time etc in my 4+ years of play i could have my char up to lvl 65 with hundereds of aa's and be decked in time gear but im not because i play the game at a much more relaxed pace i still pay the fee shouldnt i get an equal amount of content per expansion as the uber players do?

In terms of raw content levels levels 1-50 have 10 times the content/quests/mobs to kill then 55-65 zones/content/quests.

I think in this case your arguement has no grounds to stand on.

[Kashmiir Battlekat]

also id just like to say that the way the game is running right now mudflation really doesnt exist at all once you get into pop everything in pop and god is nodrop which means raiders are replacing nodrop gear with more nodrop gear which means nothing trickles down oh yeah btw trickle down econnomics suck@$$ it generally ends up with the rich richer the poor poorer and the middle class poorer.

Again, your arguements holds no water. There is a TON of 'tradeable' loot in GoD. Go to the bazaar and see for yourself.

Also many new tradekskill related items were introduced in GoD.

PS: Elemental Loot is no drop, but many new tradeskill armors/rings/earrings were introduced.

[Oneiromancer]

I just think people need to understand that there are places you will NEVER see and items you will NEVER obtain. Learn to live with this.

I'm just trying to say that there's a balance to be struck.  I've already said I'm okay with there being places I will never see and items I will never obtain.  I just think that, especially with GoD, they made too many of them.  There will always be the person who won't rest or stop whining until they have everything.  Then there are the more reasonable players who just want...well...something reasonable.

Even though I wasn't around for it, I've heard enough stories...in the past, zones such as Veeshan's Peak, Sleeper's Tomb, and Vex Thal were what differentiated those who were hardcore from those who were casual.  They were a relatively small percentage of their various expansions...everyone got something out of the expansion, but those who were the best got correspondingly more.  PoP broke that mold, and unfortunately that seems to be what is expected now...a disproportionately large percentage of the expansion that is reserved for the elite player.

I'd like to think that a good deal of casual players are reasonable--that they know that they'll never see certain zones or own certain items.  I think if SOE struck a better balance between locked out content and open content then more people would be...well...content. ;)

Game on,

[Kashmiir Battlekat]

As I tell all my friends:

Everquest is a game of dedication. You will get exactly what you give it.

If you give little. You will get little.

and vice-versa.

[Kashmiir Battlekat]

Oneiromancer,
Im uncertain what it is you are looking for I guess.

In terms of GoD there are zones you can play in and loot that can be obtained.

You 'can' get in to Kod'taz but it would be difficult. Do your 4 sewer trials and then put together an extremely competent group of 6 for Tipt and Vxed. These foks dont need to be Elementally flagged, but they should have top notch Bazaar gear at a minimum and even then... they best be on there toes :)

I see where you are coming from though. Repeasing an expansion which you purchase and then obtain almost zero content from it other then some AA and a new city to tradeskill in would blow.

[Oneiromancer]

As I tell all my friends:

Everquest is a game of dedication. You will get exactly what you give it.

If you give little. You will get little.

and vice-versa.

EXACTLY!  This is why casual gamers like LDoN so much!  We can put the time in, by beating the adventures...and then we get some nice loot out of it!  Stuff that we probably won't ever upgrade, if we are truly casual!

But I'll say it again, but perhaps differently: if the newer expansions (besides LDoN) had a greater gradient of dedication/reward, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  In terms of the hours I play per week, I view myself as halfway between totally casual and hardcore.  But I am basically limited to the casual rewards for my dedication.  Again, LDoN alleviates that somewhat.  PoP and GoD, it seems to be pretty much all or nothing.  A better curve dedication/reward would be great, and would hopefully make everyone happy.

Game on,

[Oneiromancer]

In terms of GoD there are zones you can play in and loot that can be obtained.

Yeah, I have soloed in Natimbi and Qinimi.  I got my +20 hp augment off of Tumia Lehio, after tons of kills...but that camp was trivial even before the zones were tuned down.  My guild has grouped in Riwwi but they didn't do too well, hehe.

You 'can' get in to Kod'taz but it would be difficult. Do your 4 sewer trials and then put together an extremely competent group of 6 for Tipt and Vxed. These foks dont need to be Elementally flagged, but they should have top notch Bazaar gear at a minimum and even then... they best be on there toes :)

And I think that I could get this done...if I was on a more populated server.  It's a double-edged sword...I have had so few horror stories with trains or general a-holes compared to people on other servers, but trying to get a group can be very tough.  Just the other night I got my first invite to a GoD group ever...although I didn't get the expansion for a few weeks or so...and it folded because the tank logged off and there were no others lfg.  We ended up doing two LDoNs, but this difficulty in groupage is a common occurrence on my server...even for a Saturday night.

Game on,

[Lorathir]

GoD can kiss my ass.

I can't even pronounce the GoD damned zone or mob names half the time.

Overlord G'et The F'u'kow'Tahe're