Monk vs. BST damage mitigation

[Razimir]

IIRC there has been several discussion about this topic. Anyone who can point out me one? One of our guild monk claimed that bazaar geared bst out tanked (damage mitigation wise) him in BoT (Time/Ikkinz geared monk). They both had maxed defencive AAs etc. The statement was based on cleric word: 'bst needed less healing' and monk's claim that monks got 200 - 300 ac penalty which bsts doesn't have. I can't believe the statement. I think, the consensus on BST board is that Monk vs. BST damage mitigation is equal? I'd appreciate if anyone got parsed info about the topic.

-Raz

[Choppin]

the only explanation I can give is that the bst slowed and the monk could not, thus the cleric had to heal the bst less... if anything I think we take more damage vs unslowed

[Vidyne]

Who was slower when the monk was tanking?
If it was a shaman/enchanter, some usually dont slow til around 90% or even 80%, this alone will cause the monk to need more healing.

Most beasts I know, pull with slow, and it usually lands... as you can see, this alone would make up for alot of the difference....

[Bengali]

The Steel Warrior has some tanking parses: http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5868

Monks came out ahead of beastlords when both had Time gear, so I can't see how a bazaar bst could outtank a Time one.

[Tastian]

http://p201.ezboard.com/fmonklybusiness43508frm2.showMessage?topicID=1259.topic

Is a parse of a bunch of different classes.  Beastlords take more damage than all but pure casters.  What WEAPONS were being used?  There's a huge difference between a fully defensive AA'd beastlord with 15% double attack using a SoFW and a monk with max offensive AAs and rapid strikes, etc DW'n 20 delay weapons.  Ripostes can make a huge differance againist already slowed mobs.  

I'm simply going to say the cleric was wrong.  If nothing else the monk should have had tons more hps and had much more efficent CH's landing on him.

[Razimir]

Slow thing was the one I was thinking of too. Monk used prolly SoT, dunno about the beasty. Thanks for pointing out parses.

-Raz

[Aneya]

Gotta love parses, especialy when a druid takes less damage then a beastlord! :P

I'm not exactly where I saw it but I once saw that monks mitigation was parsed to be equal or above chain class mitigation. So from a mitigation point of view a monk should take a lot less damage compared to a beastlord who is on leather class mitigation.

[Coprolith]

The statement was based on cleric word: 'bst needed less healing'

You should have slapped your guildmate immediately after he said that.  :wink:

You cannot, repeat cannot, derive any conclusions from that statement. The amount of healing you need isnt equal to damage mitigation, its equal to the mobs dps, and depends on
1) your avoidance
2) your mitigation
3) mob being slowed, and what slow%
4) mobs getting stunned part of the time
Here's the thing: #3 and #4 have by far the biggest effect on the mob's dps. When you're gonna do a class comparison, you have to eliminate any variation in 3 and 4, as was done in the parses linked in the replies before me. Once you're looking at pure avoidance and mitigation, monks beat BSTs hands down.

and monk's claim that monks got 200 - 300 ac penalty which bsts doesn't have.

Rubbish. Monks do not get a AC penalty. They used to have a mitigation bonus instead of a penalty, and it was that bonus that was removed. All leather classes mitigate the same, all chain classes mitigate the same, and all plate classes except warriors who get a bonus mitigate the same.

/hugs

[Yllandra]

Another thought would be our warders.Was the warder on the monk's mob? Or just the beasts mob? Relic does help a bit =p In one of my recent guilds, a ranger was complaining the same thing, that a beast with less ac than him could tank better than him. I pointed out the warder, and he said "oh... I didn't realize that" heh.

[Tastian]

Hehe I can't help but chime back in here real fast.  "Bst needed less healing" is such a low information statement.  Maybe you weren't killing as fast, maybe beastlord was slowing mobs different, maybe monk had krieger and beastlord had a lesser.  

Seriously though in a spot like BoT you have no problem CH'n.  Most clerics "might" get 3-4k (ish) Ch's on a bazaar geared beastlord beastlord.  On a time monk you could easily get 7k CH's in a spot like that if you wanted.  Just the extra hps of the monk alone give him a huge edge in healing efficency in that situation.  Not to mention mend.  If monk really did have an SoT that's even less healing needed for the monk.  

Basically what it comes down to is even if the cleric were right in eyeballing the fact he was healing the beastlord less there's still over a dozen different variables that could account for that situation happening.  However, standing in front of the same unslowable/unstunable mob AA for AA, gear for gear the monk will take less damage.

[Eatbugs]

The statement was based on cleric word: 'bst needed less healing'

Very funny stuff.  I run into this misconception fairly often - because I do normally need less healing than Monks.  Why?  Because I slow mobs on incoming.  In general, if a Monk is tanking the mob hasn't been slowed yet - if it has been slowed, the Monk generally doesn't have enough aggro to be tanking until the mob is about 1/3 down in health.

So yes, I tank 65% slowed mobs much better than Monks tank unslowed mobs.  :P

[Tabytha]

Being that the monk has higher offence skills like duel wield and double attack....especially double attack, wouldnt that meen that they are swinging there weapons alot more then us hence taking more riposts then us, hence taking more hits then us, hence needing more healing?

[Namog]

I have parsed in the past and Monks/BSTs actually do about similar dps. (Note: When i say BST I include warder, BST, spells, etc)

I have elemental gear and parse around 150sh..about the same as other monks with similar gear/AAs.

[Bananea]

I was the beastlord used in Iamthep's parsing, this was directly after I had returned to the game after like 3 quarm kills. The druid was a VERY well equipped druid and had about 3 months of Time gear on me.

Anyways, your cleric was wrong.

[Aneya]

From: http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5868

So if we look at this we see that warrior > monk > Paladin > shadow knight > ranger > rogue > beast > cleric > shaman > druid.

I have a question for Bananea. Was this before or after they nerfed Monk Mitigation. Because that parse shows that monks take less damage than Paladins  and that we come dead last among melees. If this is after the monk mitigation nerf any monk claiming bsts tank better has no ground to stand on.