Monk vs. BST damage mitigation

[TerjynPovar]

So you are just spewing 100% semantic BS, and have been the whole time, and now you admit it.

I repeat, just because it was intended and as designed does NOT mean it was not a bonus.

Take the monk's extra AC.  It was in from the beginning, was intended, and yet you've referred to it as a bonus!  Why?  It was a natural ability specific to monks, clearly not a bonus.  Yet even you yourself call it a bonus.

Oh well, at best you are a hypocrit, at worst an idiot.

[a_moss_snake_001]

You know, this highly semantical "discussion" could go on forever and prove nothing.

The end result was Monks now take more dmg from mobs and thus can't tank with the big boys now, relegating them to a support dps role with the additional ability to pull effectively. Thats where they should be and thats the areas they should shine in, end of story.

Since GoD was released i've heard endless whines by various classes about their inability to tank the new mobs and you know I am TIRED of it, Sony/Verant intended 3 classes by design to tank in this game with the main one being Warrior. Grab one of those tank classes head to GoD, control your soddin aggro and do what your good at.

If monks want improvements ask for more DPS and more pulling utility as its THERE your getting left behind and you SHOULDN'T be. Don't ask for more tanking ability as your simply not going to get it, even if you so call "justify" it by asking for a "nerf" to be reversed.

And if you want to solo don't play a pure melee class.

[Goretzu]

So you are just spewing 100% semantic BS, and have been the whole time, and now you admit it.

No sematics is CALLING it a 'bonus', you can just about stretch 'pseudo-truth' to get away with it... well not really, but it's being tried. :)

I repeat, just because it was intended and as designed does NOT mean it was not a bonus.

IF it was a bonus yes (like say the AC Bonus - which is a bonus for staying under weight).
But as it never was a bonus, never was intended as a bonus, has never in the history of monk mitiagtion, or EQ, even been refered to as a 'bonus'... except by Cop and in this thread :).
It can be safely said it was NOT a bonus.

It was just original monk mitigation, that was 3 and a bit years later into the game nerfed for other reasons.

Take the monk's extra AC. It was in from the beginning, was intended, and yet you've referred to it as a bonus! Why? It was a natural ability specific to monks, clearly not a bonus. Yet even you yourself call it a bonus.

You get bonus AC for staying under the weight limit.
It was intended to compensate for low worn AC on monk gear.
Take your pick.

Now contrast that to original monk mitigation, there is NO bonus there, only what was given.

Oh well, at best you are a hypocrit, at worst an idiot.

Heh, I dunno why you repeatedly resort to name calling so easily  :roll: , or rather I guess I do, it seems you've got nothing else. :(

[mythral]

i can summarize almost this whole thread:

2 + 2 = 4

2 x 2 = 4

discuss how they are different!

[Rhaynne]

i can summarize almost this whole thread:

2 + 2 = 4

2 x 2 = 4

discuss how they are different!

lol.  Too true.

[TerjynPovar]

That's an awesome comparison!

I've been beat down.  I give up.  Why, just yesterday I saw a level 65 monk take over 10K from an orc pawn and die!  They obviously need to be restored to pre-nerf status, to combat this horrible injustice.

[Katonis]

It seems rather simple to me.  In early EQ monks were designed to be good damage dealers that did not need much in the way of gear.  As such there was little gear around for them.  The problem was that is reality this itemization meant a monk would get torn to shreds so they were given a mitigation bonus over there original mitigation so they could survive to some degree.

Enter Velious with its fundamental shift in itemization.  This shift brought higher end gear that was All/All and eliminated the old itemization problem that would cause monks to be shredded, but only among higher end monks.  Lower end monks still suffered from weak itemization.  With the itemization issue eliminated higher end monks no longer needed the old mitigation boost to survive, but now that boost along with current items made monks the tank of choice.  

This brought forth the infamous "nerf" which I see in reality as the removal of a bonus that had outlived its usefulness among higher end monks.  The removal was poorly implemented since mid and lower end monks still suffered from the old itemization problems.  The issue was corrected with higher end monks but hit lower end monks to hard.  

Fast forward a couple of years.  Thanks to mudflation the poor itemization issues that lower end monks used to face have been worked out of the game.  We have the GoD expansion in which most mobs are designed to only be tanked by a plate tank.  Chain class tanks can do in an emergency but still leads to very close calls.  Monks which mitigate like true leather class ever since the "nerf" are being ripped to shreds on pulls.  

The thing is a druid or beastlord pulling would get shredded even worse on the same pulls.  Beastlords and druids should mitigate worse than monks because we have lower skill caps.  A beastlord can last longer than a monk only in a case where they can slow a mob.  If the mob is not slowed a beastlord will go down faster than a monk.  A druid is even worse off and will go down faster if they get hit.  They have to pray the plate tank gets agro back or they evac is time.  

I do not believe monks are going to get there old mitigation bonus back.  They are going to have to accept the fact that if they get hit they are going to get hit almost as badly as the other leather classes in general melee.  I do think something needs to be done to allow monks to survive pulls better.  

I think that GoD gives a good idea of something that might able to be implemented in some forms for monks.  The mastraqs in GoD can up their melee mitigation by a lot when they get low on hp.  Perhaps monks could get an AA to do something similar when they get low on hp.  Such an ability would require limitations though.  Maybe limitations like the monk has to have a dangerously low percentage of hp, or see if the monk has auto attack on or not.  You might have this ability cancel out when the monks FDs no matter if it is successful or not.  

I think this could fit into the idea on a monk that has trained his body and spirit to push past normal limits.  A lot like the idea behind the discipline that a melee has to take less damage.  The difference is the monk calls upon an inner strength that no other can match in dire situations that would make others would fail.

I think is this were implemented as an AA it might need to be focused at those that need it most, which is pullers in higher end PoP, hard LDoNs most of GoD, and probably most of OoW.  I am not sure how to accomplish this other that mak it a high level, decently costed, and probably tied to certain requiesites.  Honestly details like this are best left to those that know monks and not guys like me.  I think such an ability could be easily abused but if properly implemented could do wonders for the monk class.  

Just my 2cp.

Kat

[Goretzu]

It seems rather simple to me. In early EQ monks were designed to be good damage dealers that did not need much in the way of gear. As such there was little gear around for them. The problem was that is reality this itemization meant a monk would get torn to shreds so they were given a mitigation bonus over there original mitigation so they could survive to some degree.

You're confusing base mitigation with the AC Bonus here.

Monks were NOT and I repeat (because people seem incapable of grasping this concept) were NOT 'given' a 'mitigation bonus' over their original mitigation because of low AC (they only ever HAD their 'original mitigation' level and then it was nerfed).


IF they HAD been then yes you could call it a 'monk mitigation bonus'.



But monks have only ever had 2 levels of mitigation in EQ.

1. Their ORIGINAL and INTENDED mitigation (for 3 and a bit years).

&

2. Their nerfed mitigation (for nearly 2 years now).










Now the AC BONUS, yes that was given to offset the lower worn AC.
But monk mitigation was just as intended. :)

Monks were INTENDED to have pure melee mitigation (not this recent leather mitigation idea) and the amount of mitigation controlled through worn mitigation AC, which warrior always had MUCH more of until the mudflation and mitigation cap issue - well the still had it then in fact just the caps made it irelevent.

There was not (and certainly is not :)) ANY 'monk mitigation bonus'.


It never existed,
It doesn't exist.
And the only way you might say it could exist would be if monks were given some bonus mitigation in the future.

It's just something Cop made up when he stated monks were GIVEN a mitigation bonus in Kunark (they weren't they were given a DAMAGE BONUS :) - monk mitigation has only been changed once when it was nerfed).

[Coprolith]

I do think something needs to be done to allow monks to survive pulls better.

Well the ability to dodge blows from behind would fall under that heading.

But the general idea is right. If my main was a monk, I'd see if SOE would warm up to an ability similar to AD&D's reflex save vs. spell to improve further on that instead of the pointless complaints about their mitigation. They're never going to get their mitigation bonus back.

/hugs

[Goretzu]

i can summarize almost this whole thread:

2 + 2 = 4

2 x 2 = 4

discuss how they are different!

What I'm saying is: 2+2=4



What the 'mitigation bonus' terminology is saying is: 2+2+1=5 (the +1 being the IMAGINARY and NON-EXISTANT 'bonus' that never existed).  :shock:

And as it has never actually existed it's is actually saying: 2+2=5 (which is obviously totally incorrect).

[Goretzu]

But the general idea is right. If my main was a monk, I'd see if SOE would warm up to an ability similar to AD&D's reflex save vs. spell to improve further on that instead of the pointless complaints about their mitigation. They're never going to get their mitigation bonus back.

Yep I think if they're ever going to boost monks it'll have to be in other ways.

However pretty much all ways that actually would viably upgrade monks would tred on someone else's toes, so it's difficult to see where it could happen.


It think it's unlikely that monks will get thier original mitigation back (never mind this imaginary 'bonus mitigation' ;)), although the mitigation nerf, itemisation changes, mitigation cap formula changes and class soft caps are I think hitting the same areas overly hard.

[Coprolith]

Keep it up Nunya. Not only are your replies very entertaining but who knows, maybe you'll convince someone else with your proof by repeating increasingly loudly method.

[Goretzu]

Heh, so clearly and concisely explaining why it's untrue is wrong?

As opposed to the completely making stuff up method of 'proof' that the 'monks got a mitigation bonus in Kunark' arguement relys so completely upon. :)

[Katonis]

Ok call it what ever you want from the early game.  I really do not think it matters except monks mitigated better in worse gear than other classes could.  This was needed since better gear flat did not exist.  Happy?

What does matter is the itemization in Velious caused a fundamental shift in the game.  This shift worked alright with the current system for the most part but it lead to an overpowering of monk tanking abilities.  The system that was in place was designed for monks that had no gear or gear with extremely low ac.  This was no longer the case in Velious with high end monks gaining access to All/All high hp/AC gear.

The entire mitigation system of game was changed.  It was to harsh to begin with but after some tweaking did what it need to do at the high end.  The main problem was it hit lower monks to hard because they simply did not have the same gear available to them that higher end monks did.  They were still working in gear back from Kunark and original EQ.

In the end I do not think it matters what monks HAD.  I do not think they are going to get it back in the form it was.  What I do think monks should strive for is something like I mentioned.  A situational ability that would solve many of the issues they have with getting shredded by hard hitting mobs.

Cop:  You are right that blocking blows from the back falls into this category.  =)  I personally do not think it is enough since I have watched monks pull in time and GoD.  I was simply trying to come up with a way for monk mitigation to go up during a pull that is going south without raising their base mitigation again.  

I think that any form of base mitigation increase is going to nothing but lead the original problem all over again.

Kat

[Coprolith]

I personally do not think it is enough since I have watched monks pull in time and GoD. I was simply trying to come up with a way for monk mitigation to go up during a pull that is going south without raising their base mitigation again.

I didn't say it was Katonis, merely pointing that things have already been done in that area and in fact i encouraged monks to focus in that area. Pulling ability is a welcome utility to any group or raid so I have absolutely no problem with monks being the best at pulling. Its been awhile since I played my monk, so im not up-to-date with the current issues on it, but if the general opinion is that monks could use some help there then im all for it. Unlike mitigation changes, additional tools for pulling won't upset the class balance as long as there are alternative classes in case a monk is not available, but which come at the price of not being so reliable.

As opposed to the completely making stuff up method of 'proof'

I did not 'make stuff' up. I've made one mistake and one mistake only in this entire argument. When i first realized the implications of the MB parses i recalled seeing a patch message stating monk's defense has been upgraded. My mistake was in not verifying this. There were in fact several melee balancing patches shortly after Kunark was released, but it was rangers that got a small upgrade in some of the defensive skills caps, dodge or somesuch, and monk got an upgrade to their damage table, not mitigation table. I have no problem in admitting this mistake, as it changes absolutely nothing. It only means that the monk mitigation bonus (oops whatamisaying, sorry, the monks purrrrfectly natural higher mitigation table) had been there from the beginning. Everything else I've said is based on the available data and pure deductive reasoning and absolutely true until proven otherwise by equally good data and reasoning, neither of which you possess.