Monk vs. BST damage mitigation

[Bengali]

It was after.

[TerjynPovar]

It was over a year after.

Monk Mitigation nerf went live October 16th, 2002...a day which will live in infamy (Will they ever stop whining about it?  Inquiring minds want to know.)

I wish they'd done these parses pre-nerf so the monks would realize that it wasn't really cool that they outtanked everybody except defensive warriors, so they'd shut up about it.

Wonder how many hours it'll be before a monk pops his head in and calls me a liar.  My bet is on 3 hours tops.

[Eatbugs]

I'm going to call you a liar right now!

Well, not really.  Nerfing Monk mitigation across the board when the problem was itemization was a silly way to handle it, though.  The best-geared Monks (the ones the nerf was aimed at, the only ones who had the AC to out-tank Warriors) felt the least effect from it, while the mid-to-lower geared Monk was toast.  

All in all, it wasn't a terribly successful (or intelligent) way to handle the problem.

[Vidyne]

My hearing was they outtanked everyone, that like you said... only a Warrior WHILE in defensive, could outtank a monk.  That with the release of high AC in Velious, Monks attained AC equal to Warriors, and since all defense was done the same, Monk had same AC as warrior + higher block/dodge/etc....
So monk tanked better than anything, except a warrior in defensive.


I know 2-3 monks that are ele geared and by FAR outtank me in a group.
I know a Ranger that outtanks me, so Monks better not be saying we outtank them in baz gear while they are in time.
The Truth probably is that like has been said here... the bst was slowing on inc, while the Monk had his mob slowed around 90% or less, thus giving him 7-8 more hits on him id say, then the bst.

Cleric probably saw this as the monk mitigating less..  Monk's HP drops 50% in first few seconds, and bsts's only drops to 80%.  What the cleric probably didnt see was the Bst's mob was slowed.

Just my opinion.. /shrug, *goes back to playing*

Truth of the matter is, that a Warrior's hp is even going to drop faster than a Bst's on an unslowed mob vs a slowed one.
Slow is an awfully powerful tool....

[Coprolith]

Well, not really. Nerfing Monk mitigation across the board when the problem was itemization was a silly way to handle it, though. The best-geared Monks (the ones the nerf was aimed at, the only ones who had the AC to out-tank Warriors) felt the least effect from it, while the mid-to-lower geared Monk was toast.

While itemization was indeed at the heart of the problem, monks all across the board have profited from it. They had a mitigation bonus like warriors have today, not an AC bonus. That bonus applied to every monk regardless of gear.
Before beastlords came into existence, monks were pretty a much a class on their own when it came to gear. Most of their armor was silk, not leather. Wu's fighting armor (total AC of the whole set: 54) was considered good for a casual monk. As a result, monks were so far behind the other melees that they got chewed up by mobs, so SOE threw them a a bone in the form of a mitigation bonus.
When Luclin came out, itemization for monks changed drastically. All leather has been DRU MNK BST since then, and there was a large number of ALL/ALL gear with high AC for the high-end players. It was still difficult for a casual player to reach the soft cap back then, but monks really caught up with the other melees during SoL. And when PoP came out, AC took another leap for everyone, letting more and more monks reach the soft cap for AC in xp groups, where they still had the benefit of their mitigation bonus that other classes didnt have.
Today, even casual monks/bsts can easily obtain 1100AC which is enough to tank in any xp group outside GoD. High-end leather classes are well over 1600AC. When SOE nerfed the monks mitigation they knew that this day would come sooner rather then later. Even casual monks had already caught up with other casual melees due to the new itemization so there was no more need for the mitigation bonus at all.

/hugs

[Goretzu]

While itemization was indeed at the heart of the problem, monks all across the board have profited from it. They had a mitigation bonus like warriors have today, not an AC bonus. That bonus applied to every monk regardless of gear.

And was paid for in reguard to a VERY tight weight limit.

A limit which is still in force despite the fact itemisation has been re-adjusted AND the monk AC bonus now doesn't exist (it shows the numbers, but in reality does nothing).

And it was an AC bonus, not the same thing that warriors currently have at all.  Go over weight and the AC bonus was reduced.

Before beastlords came into existence, monks were pretty a much a class on their own when it came to gear. Most of their armor was silk, not leather. Wu's fighting armor (total AC of the whole set: 54) was considered good for a casual monk. As a result, monks were so far behind the other melees that they got chewed up by mobs, so SOE threw them a a bone in the form of a mitigation bonus.

Please stop with this silly changing of EQ history.

Please go to a monk site and ask WHEN the monk AC bonus appeared.

You're just making this up to support your own suprious conlusions.


Wu's armour didn't appear until just before Luclin, long, looooooong after Original EQ, Kunark and even Velious (only the boots and maybe cloak were considered great, in all other slots something better was readily avalibile for the casual monk).

The monk AC bonus has been in as long as the monk weight limit (do you know how long THAT has been in ;)).

Please stop talking out of your posterior.

When Luclin came out, itemization for monks changed drastically. All leather has been DRU MNK BST since then, and there was a large number of ALL/ALL gear with high AC for the high-end players. It was still difficult for a casual player to reach the soft cap back then, but monks really caught up with the other melees during SoL. And when PoP came out, AC took another leap for everyone, letting more and more monks reach the soft cap for AC in xp groups, where they still had the benefit of their mitigation bonus that other classes didnt have.

The monk migagtion nerf took place BEFORE PoP (about 2-3 weeks before release of PoP actually).

PoP gear also REDUCED monk AC (although upgraded most everyone else) if they upgraded from old gear to PoP gear of a similar level.

And it was PoP gear that really introduced the '1 size fits all' concept, which resulted in some case with monks having more Wis and +mana on their gear than Sta and hitpoints  :shock: (wis and mana having NO use for monks, but Sta and hitpoints still being very useful for BT's and Druids).

Luclin was the nadir of high AC all/all gear and high AC monk gear.



Will you please STOP with your blantently WRONG misinformation, it's silly.




If you're worried about monks, use data, just making up incorrect nonsense like this is pointless. :(

[Coprolith]

Sooooo predictable  :roll:

[Goretzu]

And yet which of us is RIGHT. ;)

[Goretzu]

Indeed have I said above that the mitigation nerf was wrong?

Or that it should be repealled?

Nope.

All I've done is pointed out the fallicies in your nonsense. :)


Say what you want, just get it RIGHT.

[Coprolith]

Funny that you should mention data instead of making up nonsense G, aren't you the guy that so desperately refuses to accept the parsed results from your own monk community? Who send me pm after pm with ridiculous notions on how bad monks take damage compared to bsts?

Maybe i should publish the contents of those pm's here and then we'll have a talk about who's spewing nonsense and misinformation?

As anyone here can testify, i always base my statements on actual data, and not the 'cleric needs less mana when bst tanks' kind of data either, but real data.

[Aneya]

Goretzu is half right one one point. PoP did not universaly raise ACs for all clases. It did for Chain and Plate but compared to Luclin, Silk and Leather have stayed the same or dropped a bit.

This has brought Monks more inline with other leather classes AC wise. I see no problem with that.

I'm tempted to ask Corp to air Goretzu's dirty laundry but that would not be polite.

[Goretzu]

Funny that you should mention data instead of making up nonsense G, aren't you the guy that so desperately refuses to accept the parsed results from your own monk community? Who send me pm after pm with ridiculous notions on how bad monks take damage compared to bsts?

Maybe i should publish the contents of those pm's here and then we'll have a talk about who's spewing nonsense and misinformation?

As anyone here can testify, i always base my statements on actual data, and not the 'cleric needs less mana when bst tanks' kind of data either, but real data.

I'm not questioning your parsing am I?
Only your incorrect assertations in that post (none of which I notice you've corrected me on), because they are plain wrong.





If you really want to get into personal attacks instead of facts, well that my freind is up to you, but if that's just your best rebutal of what I said above well..... whatever.  :roll:

[Goretzu]

Goretzu is half right one one point. PoP did not universaly raise ACs for all clases. It did for Chain and Plate but compared to Luclin, Silk and Leather have stayed the same or dropped a bit.

Aneya if I'm wrong fair enough, I'm wrong, but all that I pointed out with Coprolith's statments was as far as I am aware and remember incorrect.


There's a lot of decent arguements against buffing monk mitigation in this thread, but that doesn't mean that it's therefore ok to just state incorrect things like they were fact to further justify it. :(


If monk mitigation is fine then the facts (and data) should be enough, no need to further embellish things IMO. :)

[Goretzu]

Quote:
While itemization was indeed at the heart of the problem, monks all across the board have profited from it. They had a mitigation bonus like warriors have today, not an AC bonus. That bonus applied to every monk regardless of gear.  

And was paid for in reguard to a VERY tight weight limit.

A limit which is still in force despite the fact itemisation has been re-adjusted AND the monk AC bonus now doesn't exist (it shows the numbers, but in reality does nothing).

And it was an AC bonus, not the same thing that warriors currently have at all. Go over weight and the AC bonus was reduced.

Is simply stating that monks had and have a tight weight limit, which was supposed to balance their AC bonus. (imo removing this weight limit might be an issue now).

And that the monk AC bonus was NOT like the current warrior one, it increased with level and was actual bonus mitigation AC, which would be reduced by going over the weight limit (it still does for that matter only since the mitigation nerf it no longer exists apart from as pretty numbers on your AC screen - just as it would if suddenly BL's got +200 displayed AC that actually did nothing).

Quote:
Before beastlords came into existence, monks were pretty a much a class on their own when it came to gear. Most of their armor was silk, not leather. Wu's fighting armor (total AC of the whole set: 54) was considered good for a casual monk. As a result, monks were so far behind the other melees that they got chewed up by mobs, so SOE threw them a a bone in the form of a mitigation bonus.  


Please stop with this silly changing of EQ history.

Please go to a monk site and ask WHEN the monk AC bonus appeared.

You're just making this up to support your own suprious conlusions.


Wu's armour didn't appear until just before Luclin, long, looooooong after Original EQ, Kunark and even Velious (only the boots and maybe cloak were considered great, in all other slots something better was readily avalibile for the casual monk).

The monk AC bonus has been in as long as the monk weight limit (do you know how long THAT has been in ).

Please stop talking out of your posterior.

This idea that monks were 'given' a mitigation bonus late in the game (they were given slightly higher damage tables, yes), and then it was that mitigation bonus that was then taken away (with the implication that something was just removed when it was no longer needed).

Nice idea IF you want to justify nerfing monks, but just not true I'm afriad.

The monk AC bonus has been as intergral to the class as the weight penalty and indeed the intial large skill bonus monks always enjoyed in the orginal L1-50 game.

Quote:
When Luclin came out, itemization for monks changed drastically. All leather has been DRU MNK BST since then, and there was a large number of ALL/ALL gear with high AC for the high-end players. It was still difficult for a casual player to reach the soft cap back then, but monks really caught up with the other melees during SoL. And when PoP came out, AC took another leap for everyone, letting more and more monks reach the soft cap for AC in xp groups, where they still had the benefit of their mitigation bonus that other classes didnt have.  

The monk migagtion nerf took place BEFORE PoP (about 2-3 weeks before release of PoP actually).

PoP gear also REDUCED monk AC (although upgraded most everyone else) if they upgraded from old gear to PoP gear of a similar level.

And it was PoP gear that really introduced the '1 size fits all' concept, which resulted in some case with monks having more Wis and +mana on their gear than Sta and hitpoints  (wis and mana having NO use for monks, but Sta and hitpoints still being very useful for BT's and Druids).

Luclin was the nadir of high AC all/all gear and high AC monk gear.

The monk mitigation nerf took place BEFORE PoP, NOT after.  Monks already HAD nerfed mitigation by the time PoP went live, not after as was stated.

PoP gear did reduce monk AC (and hitpoints mostly) IF you went from the same level pre-PoP gear to PoP gear.  Which led to a lot of monks clinging to old gear until the really high end PoP gear was found.  By that time of course Warriors etc. had a good 400-500 AC gap over and above similarly geared monks.
It did NOT increase monk AC in actual terms, or indeed in relative terms when higher end gear was found.




That's all correct and true IMO and I was just setting the record straight.
I'm not saying anything else.





In fact if anything I think Coprolith's data and reasoning has conviced me that re-increasing monk mitigation is NOT the way forward for monks in EQ.
(but that doesn't mean he's right about the above.  :P )

[Dummkopf]

While it is correct that ac for leather classes stayed the same or even declined a bit if you compare VT loot with Elemental you have to take into account that vt was the final zone and eles are not. With time gear available your average monk ac will be higher than it was in vt gear, and those zones are on par as far as progression goes. It is pretty easy to reach 1600-1700 ac with pop gear alone, my old lucling monk didnt reach that. Even better, with time gear you get shielding and avoidance, both boost mitigation and damage avoidance directly and have a nice impact on the ability to tank.