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Author Topic: Monk vs. BST damage mitigation  (Read 51458 times)

Offline Goretzu

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2004, 04:21:51 pm »
Yep that's true to some degree.

But equally it's true of all classes and of mudflation throughout the expansions (some of the bazaar gear droping for BL's in GoD is true amazing).

But relatively warriors etc. have progressed just as much or more.  
Uber monks no longer have AC at Uber warrior levels, and even IF they did, the soft caps aren't the same (and indeed monks seem to have an AC soft cap as well if you look at the parses).


To suggest that PoP came out and monks instantly had better AC is wrong (never mind the mitigation nerf that happened just before it making it irlevenet anyway), for gear of directly comparable and achieve able level it dropped, but yes once high end gear was found of course monks eventually past their old AC, but only in newer high end gear, but equally relatively almost all other classes were doing this to a greater extent.





The suggestion that PoP made the monk issue WORSE (i.e. more unbalanced in the monks favour) is what I'm taking issue with, it didn't.


Never mind that the mitigation nerf happened before, not after.  Even discounting that PoP mobs, encounters and itemisation fixed most of the monk mitigation issues in new content and with new gear.

Offline a_moss_snake_001

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2004, 04:41:20 pm »
Both classes can obtain high AC, both classes have relatively high avoidance. I presume the soft AC cap for both classes is approx the same.

Monks have slightly higher base HP
Monks have slightly higher skill caps on avoidance skills

From the parsed data I would actually say Monks are in a decent position in the tanking foodchain even with their actual damage mitigation being low. IMHO: Avoidance > Dmg Mitigation.

Monks are not tanks, Beastlords are not tanks. Why is this even an issue for them? Be happy in your role.

The only thing that amuses me is that Rogues (a melee class with far more utility) consistently outdamage monks by a very large margin.

Offline Aneya

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2004, 05:17:25 pm »
Dummkopf, Luclin still provides the highest ac for monks in several slots. This of course doesn't mean best equipment, just highest ac.

Yttrium Wrapped Sleeves ac35 seru
Crimson Runed Mask ac 50 VT
Shadow Footpads ac 30 VT
Do`Vassir's Gauntlets of Might ac 40 NToV
Great Helm of True Vision ac 45 Ssra
Leggings of the Fiery Star ac 60 VT
Flayed Barbarian Skin Leggings ac 60 KD
etc.

With the exception of rings neck and earrings, PoP armor has 5 or more AC less than Luclin or Velious. But that is neither here nor there.

Goretzu if you are willing to discuss things without making inflamitory remarks I'm willing to debate your points.

From: http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5868
Quote
CLS  AC    SHLD AVD  DB   DI    AVG    MIT%  ATKS  HIT%  MISS% BLK% DDG% PRY% RIP% | DMG
MNK  1854  2%   60   100  22.1  311.0  55.0  3476  41.1  47.2  12.0 5.4  NA   4.7  | 127.8
*MNK 1635  2%   60   100  22.1  313.2  54.5  2923  42.0  46.8  11.6 4.9  NA   4.7  | 131.5
*MNK This is where I took 35000 copper to remove all monk AC bonus and tanked. It removed 219ac from my monk. Was it mitigation AC or avoidance AC or both? No one knows.

You claim that the monk AC bonus is just eye candy and has no effect. So I ask you. How do you refute the above parse which shows that the AC bonus clearly has an effect even while over softcap?
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Offline Khayden

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2004, 05:48:26 pm »
Quote
PoP gear did reduce monk AC (and hitpoints mostly) IF you went from the same level pre-PoP gear to PoP gear.

That seems a pretty non sensical statement since if gear had less AC AND HP you would be pretty silly to downgrade to it.

Vulak quality loot doesn't drop until you're up to the higher ssra mobs level in luclin.
VT Quality loot doesn't drop until tier 3+ mobs in PoP.
Time quality loot doesn't drop until well into GoD.

Expansions (those with raid content anyhow) have always overlapped in terms of loot quality, ie you won't replace the very best stuff from one expansion until mid way through the next one.  Equipment with both more HP and AC than VT wasn't all available from day 1 of PoP, but it hasn't been in any other expansion either.

HP became much more important to relative to AC for all classes except maybe tanks in PoP due to AEs on raid mobs and a huge increase in mob dps.  The change from the old "endurance marathons" of Luclin to the burn style of PoP was probably made to counter the huge power increases players got through level 65 and PoP AAs, and also to make encounters a bit more fun.  I think PoP itemisation switched the bias to HP>all to complement the style of fighting they were introducing.

If monks got mitigation nerfed just before PoP (have no idea when it was) then yes it would have seemed very harsh when looking at how hard PoP mobs hit compared to luclin ones.  But then monks were never meant to tank and SoE had to take a longer term view of it.

Monks could use a dps upgrade though IMO.

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Offline Felidae

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2004, 06:49:33 pm »
Monk mitigation vs Bst mitigation.... to me there is some apples vs oranges here. The Beastlord cant FD (ultimate mitigation ;-)  and the monk prolly has no pet which can allow the bst to step back in a pinch.  And then the slowing issue...

Offline TerjynPovar

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2004, 06:56:18 pm »
Quote from: Eatbugs
I'm going to call you a liar right now!

Well, not really.  Nerfing Monk mitigation across the board when the problem was itemization was a silly way to handle it, though.  The best-geared Monks (the ones the nerf was aimed at, the only ones who had the AC to out-tank Warriors) felt the least effect from it, while the mid-to-lower geared Monk was toast.  

All in all, it wasn't a terribly successful (or intelligent) way to handle the problem.

I totally agree with this sentiment 100%.  They didn't handle it brightly.  And it went overboard.  But I'm pretty tired of hearing monks talk about how it was totally uncalled for.

I don't know what/how I would have fixed the problem honestly, which is one reason why I cannot necessarily quibble with it.  If they'd left it alone, Itemization would have made it go away for high end content, but why would it make sense for Monks to outtank even warriors against anything they had Soft-Capped even to this day?

And, funny enough, Goretzu was exactly who I was thinking of when I said a monk would step in and call me a liar.  Rather, he just ignored me...aww shucks.
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Offline Coprolith

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2004, 08:52:04 pm »
Goretzu, you keep trying to change the subject back to trivialities which you also completely distort, just like you've done before. It seems like the only 'data' you know anything about are calender data.

As for example
- You replied:
Quote
Please stop with this silly changing of EQ history.

Please go to a monk site and ask WHEN the monk AC bonus appeared.

You're just making this up to support your own suprious conlusions.

Wu's armour didn't appear until just before Luclin, long, looooooong after Original EQ, Kunark and even Velious

to this piece of text of mine:
Quote
Before beastlords came into existence, monks were pretty a much a class on their own when it came to gear. Most of their armor was silk, not leather. Wu's fighting armor (total AC of the whole set: 54) was considered good for a casual monk. As a result, monks were so far behind the other melees that they got chewed up by mobs, so SOE threw them a a bone in the form of a mitigation bonus.

to which i reply: yes, thank you, im well aware when and where Wu's was put in. The only timeframe i gave was 'Before beastlords came into existence', i.e. before Luclin. I was merely pointing out how badly monks needed the bonus pre-Luclin. Monks were more of a silk class then a leather class.

- You also replied:
Quote
The monk migagtion nerf took place BEFORE PoP (about 2-3 weeks before release of PoP actually).

PoP gear also REDUCED monk AC (although upgraded most everyone else) if they upgraded from old gear to PoP gear of a similar level.

And it was PoP gear that really introduced the '1 size fits all' concept, which resulted in some case with monks having more Wis and +mana on their gear than Sta and hitpoints  (wis and mana having NO use for monks, but Sta and hitpoints still being very useful for BT's and Druids).

to this:
Quote
When Luclin came out, itemization for monks changed drastically. All leather has been DRU MNK BST since then, and there was a large number of ALL/ALL gear with high AC for the high-end players. It was still difficult for a casual player to reach the soft cap back then, but monks really caught up with the other melees during SoL. And when PoP came out, AC took another leap for everyone, letting more and more monks reach the soft cap for AC in xp groups, where they still had the benefit of their mitigation bonus that other classes didnt have.

No, it was VT that introduced the one-size fits all. The problem with monks tanking too well already occurred at the end of the Luclin era, and it was clear at the time of PoP's release it would only grow further. I'm well aware that Oct 16 2002 is just before PoP's release. I also know that PoP had already been playtested for weeks and that the effect that PoP would have on monk tanking ability was well known at the time. Maybe the high-end monks lost some AC but they were well above the soft cap anyway. If they lost any AC at all, they gladly sacrificed it for the hp's they got in return. On top of that, the new AA skills LR and ID would put monks even further ahead of the pack.
You think the devs just came up with the idea of nerfing monks on a friday afternoon after a few too many beers or something? They don't make such a serious change on a whim. They, and everyone but the monk community, could see things needed to change at that particular time.


As for spreading misinformation:
You keep saying that the nerf involved removing an AC bonus and that im making the mitigation bonus up. Let's get one thing straightened out shall we:
Monks did not have an AC bonus removed on Oct 16 2002; their listed AC did not suddenly take a dive. The simple fact is that all leather classes mitigate the same way today; if you had 200 meaningless AC points listed in the UI (or whatever the number is) this would not be the case. A 1000 AC monk does not mitigate like a 800AC beastlord, that difference would be huge and show up instantly (200AC in this range gives changes in mitigation of 30 to 40 percent). In contrast, a 1500 AC monk would have noticed only 1 or 2 percent effect of the nerf because he'd still be above the softcap at 1300AC. Now that would have been injustice; the wrong people would have gotten hit hardest.
But nothing's been altered to the way AC works for monks. Monks got nerfed in their mitigation. That's not the same thing as AC. AC makes very little difference once you're past the AC soft cap, but a mitigation bonus does, and its this mitigation bonus that gave monks an unfair advantage compared to the other classes. And since monks still mitigate the same way as the other two leather classes, you can only conclude that they must have had a bonus to their mitigation, not AC, pre-nerf

That -200AC number, i don't know where it comes from but i can guess. It was parsed out as the equivalent change in AC that would give the same mitigation decrease by someone who was already at or above the soft cap. That number has then started to lead its own life, with people forgetting where it actually came from and what the boundary conditions for the number are.
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Offline Eatbugs

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2004, 05:07:51 am »
Hm, a point from your last post, Coprolith:

Quote
AC makes very little difference once you're past the AC soft cap

True as far at goes, but the AC soft cap is not a stationary target.  My understanding is that it varies with mob atk - which means additional AC can start making a big difference again if you're fighting mobs with higher atk. (Please correct me if I'm wrong - I stopped reading much about it a year or two ago, and my understanding therefore relies on some half-remembered parses from the Steel Warrior forums.) Those Time and GoD geared Warriors with 2k+ AC are getting full benefit from much of it, if they're tanking mobs that are a challenge to them.  The "AC soft cap" was a real issue in Kunark and Velious (and top end Velious-era Monks had reached it and exceeded it) - it's a much more situational issue now, and had already started to be that way at the time of the nerf.

The problem with the nerf (and I suspect the reason they eventually adjusted Monk mitigation upward again) was that at the same time they were nerfing Monk mitigation, they were fixing the itemization problem - Leather classes in PoP and GoD no longer have close to the AC of similarly-geared Plate classes, (even given the Monk AC bonus) and the AC soft cap is considerably higher in PoP and GoD than it was in Velious.

Applying a major across-the-board fix (one obviously intended to quiet the screaming from the plate classes) at the same time as a long term class-situational fix was going in was a mistake, and one they eventually had to correct somewhat for decent melee balance.

On the other hand, whining endlessly about it now that it's been readjusted to reasonable levels (Monks are tanking pretty well in parses these days) is a bit obsessive.

Offline rigeld

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2004, 08:42:16 am »
Quote from: Aneya
From: http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5868
Quote
CLS  AC    SHLD AVD  DB   DI    AVG    MIT%  ATKS  HIT%  MISS% BLK% DDG% PRY% RIP% | DMG
MNK  1854  2%   60   100  22.1  311.0  55.0  3476  41.1  47.2  12.0 5.4  NA   4.7  | 127.8
*MNK 1635  2%   60   100  22.1  313.2  54.5  2923  42.0  46.8  11.6 4.9  NA   4.7  | 131.5
*MNK This is where I took 35000 copper to remove all monk AC bonus and tanked. It removed 219ac from my monk. Was it mitigation AC or avoidance AC or both? No one knows.

You claim that the monk AC bonus is just eye candy and has no effect. So I ask you. How do you refute the above parse which shows that the AC bonus clearly has an effect even while over softcap?

Or, you can quote the entire table,

[code:1]CLS  AC    SHLD AVD  DB   DI    AVG    MIT%  ATKS  HIT%  MISS% BLK% DDG% PRY% RIP% | DMG
WAR  2271  15%  0    87   21    223.3  71.1  2573  48.9  42.2  NA   4.2  5.9  5.3  | 109.2
WAR  1380  0%   0    102  21    273.2  64.5  1854  48.1  43.1  NA   4.9  5.9  5.5  | 131.4
MNK  1854  2%   60   100  22.1  311.0  55.0  3476  41.1  47.2  12.0 5.4  NA   4.7  | 127.8
*MNK 1635  2%   60   100  22.1  313.2  54.5  2923  42.0  46.8  11.6 4.9  NA   4.7  | 131.5
MNK  1331  0%   0    102  22.1  317.4  54.0  2550  46.8  42.1  10.4 4.5  NA   4.4  | 148.4
MNK  1063  0%   0    102  22.1  344.4  52.5  2883  46.7  41.0  11.9 4.4  NA   4.6  | 160.8
RNG  1728  2%   10   100  22.1  292.1  59.5  2359  48.5  43.5  NA   4.2  6.0  4.0  | 141.7
RNG  1308  0%   0    102  22.1  316.4  54.2  2026  51.6  40.6  NA   3.6  5.6  4.0  | 163.3[/code:1]

The weighted down monk, that loses 200 AC, takes 4 DPS more.  A huge loss in AC for negligible damage difference.  In fact, the average hit goes up by 2, within the margin for error.  Basically, the 200 AC difference did absolutely nothing for this monk.  Grats him on spending DKP.


[code:1]MNK  1854  2%   60   100  22.1  311.0  55.0  3476  41.1  47.2  12.0 5.4  NA   4.7  | 127.8
MNK  1331  0%   0    102  22.1  317.4  54.0  2550  46.8  42.1  10.4 4.5  NA   4.4  | 148.4
[/code:1]

I pulled those two lines out because the original poster of the parses made a point that a lot of people are missing about the monk AC softcap.  At 1331 AC, with no avoidance items, Brodda took an average hit of 317.4.  At 1854 AC with 60 avoidance, he took an average hit of 311.  Thats bazaar gear to Time+ gear.  From bazaar to time is a 6 hp average hit difference?

Lets look at warriors:

[code:1]WAR  2271  15%  0    87   21    223.3  71.1  2573  48.9  42.2  NA   4.2  5.9  5.3  | 109.2
WAR  1380  0%   0    102  21    273.2  64.5  1854  48.1  43.1  NA   4.9  5.9  5.5  | 131.4
[/code:1]

The Time+ warrior in the parse had 15% shielding, and took an average hit of 223.  The bazaar warrior (Im assuming not so greatly equipped.. my buddy who is a 58 pally in crappy gear is almost 1300 ac buffed) took 273 as an average hit.  Theres a difference worth pointing out.


Now, I guarantee someone will point at the DPS taken figures and say that monks tank as well as warriors.   The reason we dont is streakiness.  Anyone who has ever fought General Rapeme - errr Reparm knows that if the mob gets a lucky streak on a poorly resisting (or mitigating) tank, the tank is going down no matter what.  Healers dont like to heal a streaky tank.  Ive tanked for groups and had barely any healing for an hour or so, then WHAM 2 mobs in a row and the cleric is oom because I took so many max hits.


Quote from: Coprolith
No, it was VT that introduced the one-size fits all.

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=31385
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=31319
http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=31318

And according to the people who wrote the game, it started before Kunark (from http://eqlive.station.sony.com/community/articles.jsp?id=52118 )

Quote
This, of course, caused its own series of problems of how to adequately reward the person behind the character.  It did not take long for universally equippable items (ALL/ALL items) to be considered by and large as "Monk Loot," as far back as before the launch of Kunark

BTW, according to that patch message, if monks are mitigating as well as beastlords, it needs to be fixed.  We should be with rangers and rogues.

Quote
What we are primarily striving for is maintaining the defensive order of the Plate classes being able to take the most punishment, followed by the Chain classes and Monks.


Quote from: Coprolith
In contrast, a 1500 AC monk would have noticed only 1 or 2 percent effect of the nerf because he'd still be above the softcap at 1300AC. Now that would have been injustice; the wrong people would have gotten hit hardest.

Wow.. youre serious?  The wrong people DID get hit the hardest.  I suggest you go
here and read that thread.  The ubers barely noticed the nerf.  There are still some people who say "What nerf?"  People like me, who zone into a train in BoT and see 583 583 583 332 583 583 before I get control and FD noticed it.[/url]

Offline Coprolith

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2004, 01:35:21 pm »
Quote
BTW, according to that patch message, if monks are mitigating as well as beastlords, it needs to be fixed. We should be with rangers and rogues.

Quote

What we are primarily striving for is maintaining the defensive order of the Plate classes being able to take the most punishment, followed by the Chain classes and Monks.

The patch message speaks of the defensive order, not just mitigation. Defensive order to me is the combined effect of mitigation and avoidance (and possibly hps). According to the parses, monks (at least, monks in high end guilds) are still well above the chain classes to this very day and in fact equal to the knights (except for hps).


Quote
The ubers barely noticed the nerf. There are still some people who say "What nerf?" People like me, who zone into a train in BoT and see 583 583 583 332 583 583 before I get control and FD noticed it
That thread you referred to doesnt say much. I see Absor stating that
Quote
Right now it seems to be having too much of an impact on Monks who aren’t the top 5%. We’ll be going back and looking into it some more.
but if there is a follow-up to that statement i can't find it the 8 pages of monk outrage that followed afterward, nor any data on the actual effects of the mitigation nerf on monks across the board. Quoting a string of max hits isnt very helpful. An ubermonk may still havent had many max hits after the nerf but that doesnt mean the average damage he took changed less then that of a casual monk. But unless SOE comes forth and gives the inside scoop there's no way to know exactly how the mitigation change was implemented because there are no detailed studies on it pre-nerf to compare with. It would not surprise me at all to learn that the way the change was implemented did indeed have a bigger impact on the 'bottom' 95% istead of the top 5%. Then again, since its been more then 1.5 years since that post and i have heard of a follow-up, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that after further testing the difference was imagined either.

/hugs
Elder Coprolith III
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Offline Fibbs

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2004, 11:54:14 pm »
I'll make this debate simple,

Parsing or not the base Monk defence skills are superior to a Beastlords in every way, these are further enhanced with AA's. If not the skills are not working as intended. Therefore something the monk community needs to raise with the devs not us.

To me parsing mitigation and defence is is a variable and a random based statistic. Meaning you can debate it till the cows come home.

Equipment will always tip the scales, this has been the case in ALL expansions right back to the relase of EQ. yes back then 20hp gear made the world of difference.

Skill of the player throws all that out the window......

If there is any class that needs a defensive boost its Rogues, but that's a debate for their boards not here.

Enjoy

Fibbs

Offline Kreseth

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2004, 01:18:43 am »
Rigeld, that parse shows that ac above the softcap against what I assume is the same mob, does next to nothing.  Obviously if that is the case then going from 1800+ac to 1600+ac by increasing weight & losing the monk defensive bonus you should see very little difference.  In other words, if I read that right, it doesn't prove a thing about monk defense.  Do a similar parse with someone at 1200ac dropping to 1000ac & see how it works out...then submit bugs if there is an issue.  BTW, adding 60 avoidance shouldn't change damage per hit, that's why it's avoidance.  Adding to mitigation would help in that area.  I noticed that, according the table, the monk parsed without the avoidance boost was hit about 46% of the time & the monk with only 41%...so again no problem if I'm reading the chart correctly.

--Kreseth

Offline Coprolith

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2004, 06:16:18 am »
Quote
To me parsing mitigation and defence is is a variable and a random based statistic. Meaning you can debate it till the cows come home.

Mitigation and avoidance are not variables, they are a function of your AC and defensive skill numbers, and governed by a strict set of mathematical rules. With proper parsing you can reduce the random variation to the point where you can see those equations. Discussing those parses is essential.

Quote
Skill of the player throws all that out the window......

Skill of the player has nothing to do with his mitigation or avoidance. The stupidest Ebayer mitigates just as well as the most seasoned veteran player if their gear is equal
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Offline Banga

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2004, 08:36:47 am »
Skill in EQ?  Why are the people who can't understand statistics the same who believe there is skill in EQ?   EQ is not a skill based game, it is a statistical game.

EQ is the computer game equal of the card game War.   There are a few player controllable inputs, but those are very limited.

Offline Hereki

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Monk vs. BST damage mitigation
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2004, 09:18:41 am »
Of course there is "skill" in EQ.  Skill is in choosing and managing your encounters according to your other known attributes.  To say that there is no skill is to misunderstand the game just as much as what you are criticising.