I know you are better than this xal...

[Sikkem]

No ... beastlords are pretty well balanced where they are. Mages have problems, yes, but are better off than their whining implies. They vastly out gun us in DPS; I'm often left in awe of mage's sheer damage output ... something I can't even get close to.

Aint that the truth, blords are nicely balanced...

I have a 65 necro also and have accidently ksed grps with blords in them as the dps class on more than one occassion, but on the same mobs grouped with a mag the necro was out damaged nearly 2 to 1 and I was summoned twice and the mage never. Mages went form being the poor kids on the block to being one of the richest, sadly they havent realised it.

Instead of comparing themselves to beastlords they should copmpare themselves to necros and after they are back in hte same situation they where a year ago they will realise how good they have it atm.

Remeber EQ is a grping game !

[Incite]

Quote Coprolith:

Quote Incite:
<<Uh, if the devs said that then they need fired. The issue with shaman healing is related to the efficiency of shaman's mana regen (Canni line).>>

Canni just doesn't give shaman the big mana regen lead anymore.  Yes it's great (especially once you get the canni AA) but with Bot9, Beast crack, Kei/VoQ, and lots of self mana regen buffs etc every class can have great mana regen.  Still not quite as good but shaman canni is active, not passive mana regen.  They can't do anything else while they canni.  Necromancers take the mana regen cake tho ;)

Irrelevant.  All of those stack with canni (except necro regen of course).  Having both a 65 shaman and 65 necro, shamans have better mana regen*.

* Necros have better innate mana regen, shamans better mana regen when other buffs are added.

**  Just looked over the numbers (been some time since I have) ... shamans clear and away have better mana regen than necros, innately or no.  The downside is of course, the can do nothing else while casting canni 4.

[seravok]

Can some one explain to the mages that we arent a monk/ shaman hybrid and that we are a new class called Beastlords.

That was one big lame post IMO. Guess the mages tried to suck up to SoE with their pathetic miss informed post.

[kabreras]

Instead of comparing themselves to beastlords they should copmpare themselves to necros and after they are back in hte same situation they where a year ago they will realise how good they have it atm.

you mean we should compare ourself to a class that  can FD / evac  / snare / root  and can do  comparables DPS as mags in the long term

[Bloodgod]

I'm sick of the mage/beastlord discussion.  I just want to make 2 comments.

1.  I almost never use my pet heal.  I don't even mem it unless I think I may need it in a very rare emergency.  It's much more efficient for me to tank things down myself and therefore the pet heal argument is irrelevant.

2.  I love mages in my group.  When I have a mage in my group things die a lot faster.

[TerjynPovar]

The only advantage Clerics have over Beastlord pet heals is the 5% bonus.

I think this sums up just how ludicrous Xalmat's entire point is right there.

This disappoints me as much as it does Tastian.  Xalmat has always been the one Magician I could look at and say "See?  They have rational people so I can ignore all the idiots".  Frankly, this is gone in an instant.

[Lorathir]

I have been a long time lurker at the Tower and always respected your views Xalmat.

This however, is bollocks. I don't usually get involved with discussions like these - I'd rather post an Ebaums link or laugh to myself. But this got my goat.

You know what? I'm not gonna sit back while my class is being nerfed to oblivion and becoming so underpowered that we are a mere shadow of our former glory. If you don't like my methods, I can't help that.

There's a right and wrong way to go about getting what you want/need. Wildy lashing out while negating other factors doesn't help your cause - it hinders it.
If your looking for a power boost from Sony, FINE. Go for it, and I sincerely wish you the very best of luck. Just don't come out with biased reports like the one you posted on your board.

And for anyone in doubt of whether a nerf was called,

Beastlord heals are too powerful given that they have near-magician strength pets, AND slow.

Like the others here, I'm surprised at you.

When someone over at the Tower posted a link to this thread, you said

Let 'em whine I say.

So, you make a post as artificial as the one you did, and your response has so far been "Ya boo sucks to you"

I haven't seen Tastian this riled since I stole his Precipitation Guage, and I'm not surprised.

EDIT
It's MITIGATION.

[Kinal]

The devs have said multiple times that shamans healing is significantly LOWER because of SLOW and how powerufl it is

Link?  I'd like to see your source of the "devs" saying this...

I do not believe it appropriate for Magicians to be more potent healers than Clerics; however, Magicians should at least match the healing rate and healing efficiency that Beastlords can do.

Fine.  You can have Beastlord level heals if I can have Mage level nukes.

Take about a 1-dimensional comparison.... :roll:


Kinal

[TerjynPovar]

Also, isn't it fascinating that in his Cleric/Druid/Shaman/Beastlord tables he doesn't also include Magician pet heals, which *ALSO* are as efficient as cleric heals.

Example:

Cleric 30 Greater Healing 315 150 3.75 2.1
Druid 30 Greater Healing 300 150 3.75 2
Shaman 30 Greater Healing 300 150 3.75 2
Beastlord 30 Herikol's Soothing 300 75 3.75 4
Magician 30 Renew Summoning 300 150 3.75 2

Gee look, the only advantage that a Cleric has at level 30 over a Magician is the 5% bonus!

Cleric 55 Divine Light 945 350 4.5 2.7
Druid 55 Chloroplast 428 175 3 2.446
Shaman 55 Chloroplast 428 175 3 2.446
Beastlord 55 Sha's Restoration 1250 300 7.5 4.167
Magician 55 Transon's Elemental Infusion 900 350 4.5 2.57

Seems clear to me that Magician heals are already overpowered, by his own logic!  I mean, again, the only bonus clerics have is the 5% healing bonus, and Magician are already caught up to/ahead of Druids and Shaman!  Ah hah!  The light has gone off.

Note:  Sarcasm detected in this post.

[Solonys]

Gonna have to agree with everyone else on this, you cant compare my beastlords heals to my mages heals (bl 65, mage is 63 as of 2 hours before the servers dropped, w00t!) because of the fact that I can cast my AE rain on my mage, and while i wait for it to come back, heal my pet. i dont LOSE my dps (this is the way i choose to solo most of the time, its not as effective as i could be, but its fun :D ) by healing my pet. vs if my beastlord is soloing, I really CANT heal my pet. because if he needs healing, hes OT'ing another mob. and Im sorry, id like to see a mage without his spellcasting AA"s channel a 9 second heal spell thru a mob beating on him. My mage cant do it (see also:gate) when it matters. even if i have my heal spell up, and my pet is tanking the only mob i pulled (uncommon) its usually something my DPoC'ed pet cant take WITHOUT Heals.

For all I care, SoE can TAKE my pet heal, and I wouldnt miss it one single second.  Its BS for someone to say that because beastlords have a better heal than mages, that they are a better pet class.

Im sorry, my friends air pet beat the unholy hell out of my warder, both unbuffed. maybe im doing something wrong, but why am i a better pet class?

Because i get a pet proc? Summon:Blade of Walnan

Because I get pet haste? Burnout line.

Oh wait, its mana regen! Elemental draw, Phansons phantasmal line, mod rods

No, maybe its nukes! 675 damage frost nuke vs Sun Vortex? SV, please :D

Tankability? Okay, you got me here. Im a melee, im a better tank than a caster. guilty as charged, bring forth the nerfbat!

Yeah, Xal, pull your head out of your elemental long enough to take into consideration how the pets work and how the class as a whole works before you call for a nerf to a class, because remember, when SoE nerfed something, they were heavyhanded about it.

Next thing you know, mages will B*tch that we shouldnt even HAVE our pets and neither should necros or shadowknights, because they are the TRUE AND ONLY HOLY PET CLASS or some such crap.

[Jaytee Bushwacker]

The basis of the argument is you have multiple ways to sustain your pet.  You can slow a MOB (this is the most overpowering ability in the game next to complete heal) heal your pet and tank for it.  Without a pet you are not defenseless.

As a class magicians give up pretty mush ANY form of defense for thier pets, shouldn't  it also follow that they have a way to sustain said pet/defense?

We have two heal spells worth casting - 60 and 65 with massive recast timers.  Even figuring in the OOW proposed heal we still have a really pathetic pet heal line.  Even our Pet "Lay Hands" AA does less than 25% of a heal on a 65 earth pet because the dam thing is capped at (Level x 33 + 1) HP of direct healing to your pet. At level 65, it does 2146 HP instantly.  At level 70 it will heal 2311 HP.


Healing our pet also negates our ability to nuke because we have to chain them against unslowed mobs which by the time you really need the pet heals to tank something its a mob that is generally hitting for several hundered per swing and probably quadding.  I.E. eats the pet to fast to sustain pet heals.



[code:1]
Class - Level - Name - Amount Healed - Mana Cost - Cast Time - Recast Time
Magician  60 Transon's Elemental Renewal 900    400 7     7.5    
Magician  64 Planar Renewal   1200  300 7     7.5    
Beastlord 58 Sha's Restoration 1250  300 7.5  2.25  
Beastlord 61 Healing of Sorsha 2100  425 9     2.25  
[/code:1]
[EDIT] sorry I can't get the dang numbers to line up right


Sustained Pet healing rate for the pet cleric playstyle:

Magician Chains:

Magician  60 Transon's Elemental Renewal
Magician  64 Planar Renewal

Starting with the level 60 heal we heal 900 HP in 7 seconds. Ignoring spell gem reset we immediatly begin casting level 64 heal for 1200 HP in 7 seconds.

At this point: Seconds = 14 HP Healed = 2100 or 150 HP healed per second.

Beastlord Chains:

Beastlord 58 Sha's Restoration
Beastlord 61 Healing of Sorsha

Starting with Sha's you heal 1250 HP in 7.5 seconds and again ignoring spell gem refresh you cast Sorsha for 2100 HP in 9 seconds.

At this point: Seconds = 16.5 HP Healed = 3350 or 203 HP healed per second

You also have to note that the magician healing per second will actually be reduced because the spell refresh is longer than the cast time (7 cast vs 7.5 recycle) so the mage Heal Per Second will be reduced a bit further.

However, even from this first cycle using the spells availible in game now you can see Beastlord healing is 26% better than the magicians.  Add in slows and the ability to tank starts really showing the limitation placed on mages.
[/code]

[Khayden]

Xalmat's post is the biggest crock of sh*t I've ever read on any forum about class balance.  And that includes the worst of the monk boards.

Examples:

Where the problem lies is their potent pet heals. Remember the argument for shamans: "Because Shamans have slow, they have the weakest heals. So, one would argue that slow is so powerful, less heals are needed." What we see in beastlords is the opposite effect. Beastlord pet heals rival very closely Cleric heals, and quickly exceed their parent-class Shaman, and in addition, because of their ability to slow mobs, their heals are much more potent.

You are kidding right?  You're comparing our pet only line of heals (the one with the 9 second cast time) to the priest class spam heals...  

Including Gates healing, Clerics finally gain their mana efficiency edge over Beastlord healing. Druids finally catch up to Beastlords in amount healed. Shaman, on the other hand, lag significantly behind. Its worth noting that Beastlords have a 65% slow at level 65. (Shaman get 75%)

The general trend is that Beastlord healing is significantly better than their parent class of Shaman. Additionally, until the high 50s, Beastlords are more potent healers than even Clerics, and throughout virtually their whole career also have more efficient heals.

It would seem the statement "Because Shamans have slow, they have the weakest heals. So, one would argue that slow is so powerful, less heals are needed" does not apply to Beastlords as well.

Clerics and druids have 10 second heals too - they'd be a better comparision really considering the cast times... don't you think?  I guess not since that wouldn't help you make up rubbish as easily would it?

Additionally, slow gives Beastlords a permanent advantage over Magicians in that they are never fighting a mob at full capacity, in a group or while soloing. Magicians, on the other hand, must rely on other classes to accomplish this.

Hey NEWSFLASH!! We're better soloers than you.  Live with it.  If we fought the way your post full of rubbish indicates we'd be doing about half our dps while the mage would be doing 100% of their already much higher dps.  Show me why you think magicians should not only be able to outdps us by far in groups and raids but also be able to solo as well as us.  How is that balanced?

Magician Pet Midigation does NOT justify weak heals. Beastlord heals are too powerful given that they have near-magician strength pets, AND slow.

The justification for weak heals is simple.  You're a mage.  You can nuke the living bejesus out of things.  You're an INT caster.  You don't get to heal well.  You don't get to tank either.  If you get pet heals like ours, then I want DPS like yours.... I suppose you'd like to tank like a warrior too?

64   Planar Renewal   2100   425   3.75   2.25   4.94

ROFLMFAO.  You want a spell that is better than the level 65 druid spam heal!??!  If mages have expectations like this no wonder they whine and complain so much.   How do you justify a 3.75 second cast time?

Your arguments are based on twisted facts, inaccurate comparisons and greed.

I sincerely hope SoE read your article.  It will completely and utterly destroy your credibility with them the same way as it's destroyed any sympathetic feelings we might have had for mages.

Outright pathetic attempt at slaughtering us for your own gain.

Khayden.

[Solonys]

yes Jaytee but the "limitiation" is in the fact that, mage vs beastlord, without pets, mages are SOOOOOOOOOO Much better off. I cant chain off crit nukes for the 4k range, period. my biggest nuke is a 675 value nuke as a beastlord, Sun vortex is what, 1550? or even if you argue that fire nukes dont hit enough (i know of the problems with them) black steel is still 1400. I can not burn down a mob like a mage can. I can not. I can not. Mages cant tank like I can. Deal with it, mages! I play one, ive been ACTIVELY playing one for a while now. I know where the problems and shortcomings are in the mage class, pet heals arnt your biggest bug. Dont attempt to get beastlords nerfed. you need to also understand, if they gave you OUR heal, the nerfbat to your solo ability would come down HARD and FAST because of how fast your solo ability would ramp up when you take into consideration your heals work on CHARMED pets.

Go complain about 9pp to CoTH the idiot monk that cant Feign split properly, like i do on my guild board :D

[Catgal]

Xal, I donno who you are, but you should be supposed to be an objective guy as you are one of the mage representatives (correct me if I am wrong). However, just read your article 3 times (sorry, my English sucks). I would like to let you know that your article is a bit passionate (subjective) to convince others.

I understand you want to ask for something for your class as you see the need. I understand how you feel when you don't get it too. However, I would suggest you to be a little more objective while you think up your ideas, to be cool while writing up things. I am sure it will help you get more positive feedbacks. Just a little suggestion. No hidden meaning at all.

P/S Please don't mind, my English isn't good.

[Caali]

Some of the keys points for the whole argument are flawed as Tastian mentionned. Three points jump out immediately at me when I browsed that post.

1. How can you even compare priest class heals and pet heals? It's like comparing apples and oranges.

2. Beastlords are pets are not as powerful as mage pets to begin with. As per parses done by MAGES (look up Tezron on your boards). You do more DPS than us, and your pet does more DPS than ours... I think it's not out of whack that we get a utility spell like slow to help us out.

3. I never never never ever play pet cleric. Mages are in a position to do so. I don't know any worthwhile BL player who does or will.

As for me I'd gladly take the mage heal and give them our 9s second POS. Let's trade! I guarantee you won't hear many complaints  :lol: