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Class envy rides again.

Started by Bheran, August 20, 2004, 09:26:14 PM

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Mneumenth

This is no more of a threat to the Pallie Stun fuction than Ranger Trueshot is a danger to the Rogue DPS function.
Mneumenth
"When you absolutely, positively have to kill every motherf@#$er in the room...Accept no substitute."

Inunokami

Hmm, I've never noticed any class evey for BSTs in particualr. I think class envy is more of a circular thing like rock paper scissors


#War- envies PAL and SK for thier spells and utility
#Pal & SK - envy War for tanking ability and envy each other for various reasons (pets and stuns)
# Shaman - envies BSTs cause most 65's dont need their buffs anymore and bsts slow "good enough"
# Druid - envies clerics for rez spells and that MH spot they refuse to fill at higher levels (how many times have you seen a DRU on LFG wioth "wont be MH"?)
# Rog- envies anyone who can out DPS them except for wizzies (maninly rangers with their killshots or what be it)
# Mag- envies BST for pet power and heals (for some reason?) and wizzies for nuke damage.
# Wiz- envies chanters for versitality and mages for their pets.
# Necro - envy people who can get groups quickly (sadly they are often overlooked at higher levels).
#Ber- envies War and Rog for obvious reasons.
# Clerics - dont realyl envy anyone that much but tend to be stuck up as to where and why they will group ( More clerics than anyone else have prissy " Will only group in X spot " on lfg. Ironically this goes against the selfless healer RP aspect of their class (evil clerics aside).
# Ranger- envy those with fast "Now Loading" times ( and they more than druids deserve the new summon self to corpse AA).
# Monk- envy BSTs for hoggin their gear, rogs for DPS and SK's and Necro's for FD.
# BST- envies classes that dont have to pick up pet poop. Ok hmm. guess we envy classes that double attack maybe??
#Bard - envy classes who have time to actually chat in a group, and no carple tunnel classes.  Hmm really maybe they just are more concerned about how they we're nerfed as oppsoed to how X calss is better than them. Also envy people who when they group aren't constantly asked to play this song or that song ( yet the bard feels somewhat compassion for the shaman).
# Enc- This vain class seems to evny other chanters rather than other classes.

well ok, I wrote this after a few beers .. but it seemed good when I started it.. hopefully someone will finish it a little better  :)
Inunokami Level 68 Barbarian Feral Lady on Quellious
Member of
Sirokuma

FIPPY & EMPEROR CRUSH in 04' !

Valsuvious

Actually shaman envy BST because:

a) you are their hybrid class, yet are more powerful
b) your buffs mean so much more at 65 and up especially with someone maxed stats
c) mana regen.  Shaman can only use their mana regen while standing still and it takes an infinite amount of casting to use it.  Crappy in an environment that you are always on the move (like LdoN)
d) Pets.  Shaman pets are so weak that even SKs have a better one at a lower level.  They don't inately duel wield and only can if given two weapons
e)  dps is so horrendous for shaman because of the length of fights and the agro associated with any form of dps for the shaman will instantly make them the main tank.
f) when you bring in slow mitigation into the equation.. then using a 65, 70 or 75% slow means jack shit.  It all mitigates down to a certain pecentage and the only difference is that it will be overridden by the shamans.
g) tanking ability.  With the insane agro on everything the shaman does, they will inevitably end up tanking  things alot.  This brings back the problem with them not having anything to protect them when getting beat on (like runes or some type of disc or whatever).

Bengali

Quote from: ValsuviousActually shaman envy BST because:

[list deleted]

Perhaps the next expansion will get the shamans off our backs. ;)  For example there's:

1.  Group avatar, with an atk increase *and* a damage mod, compared to the fero line which is single target, less mana efficient and has longer recast;

2.  Stat buffs, which according to Lucy do things like "increase damage mod by 5%" and "increase chance to avoid melee by 7%", which should value even those people who are stat capped.  Additionally, even those buffs that add pure stats have curious new fields like: "Stats Cap(40)".  I wonder what that "stats cap" field does for people who are at the stats cap.....  :twisted:    

What should make shamans even happier is the fact that at least as of the time of this post, there aren't any beastlord stat buffs at all. :)

3.  That's just the public stuff. :)
Savagespirit Bengali Grimmspirit, Scion of Shar Vahl

"My friend Mark said that he saw Bengali totally uppercut some kid just because the kid opened a window.
And that's what I call REAL Ultimate Power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

TerjynPovar

Quotea) you are their hybrid class, yet are more powerful
b) your buffs mean so much more at 65 and up especially with someone maxed stats
c) mana regen. Shaman can only use their mana regen while standing still and it takes an infinite amount of casting to use it. Crappy in an environment that you are always on the move (like LdoN)
d) Pets. Shaman pets are so weak that even SKs have a better one at a lower level. They don't inately duel wield and only can if given two weapons
e) dps is so horrendous for shaman because of the length of fights and the agro associated with any form of dps for the shaman will instantly make them the main tank.
f) when you bring in slow mitigation into the equation.. then using a 65, 70 or 75% slow means jack shit. It all mitigates down to a certain pecentage and the only difference is that it will be overridden by the shamans.
g) tanking ability. With the insane agro on everything the shaman does, they will inevitably end up tanking things alot. This brings back the problem with them not having anything to protect them when getting beat on (like runes or some type of disc or whatever).
Quote

A is not fact, it is opinion...and is hardly shown by your list here.
B depends on what you are looking for...Shaman have better regen and haste, and contrary to popular uber opinion the number of people capped on stats isn't that high.  Ferine Avatar can be kept up on far more people than Fero.
C is true, but if you are in one location shaman self mana regen >> beastlord self mana regen.
D and E are basically the same thing.  Beastlords do more DPS, and neither pet can tank for crap at the levels where B is true.
F Even with the highest mitigating mobs there are, BST Slow is still 11.7% more damage than Shaman slow, and for those mobs which DO mitigate to this level, that 11.7% damage is huge.
G Beastlords tank for crap...close enough that Shaman with Quiescence can tank nearly as well as a BST can.

I agree Shaman do need work...and have for a while.  But Beastlords are not just flat out better like some are always trying to claim.  Your list also ignores the things a shaman can do better than a Beastlord.
Terjyn, Retired Feral Lord on the Povar Server

Eatbugs

Quote from: ValsuviousActually shaman envy BST because:

a) "More powerful"?  As powerful, maybe.  The Shaman class doesn't lack for raid usefulness or solo power - more than Beastlords in many cases.  When was the last time you saw a raid called off because none of the Beastlords could attend?  I'd agree Shaman need some group-focused balance. (better heals, maybe)

b) Wha?  Sure, SD and Fero are nice.  So are Fo7, FA and Tribunal, for just about everyone.

c) Are you saying you do LDoNs so fast with your Shaman that you never have two and a half seconds to stand still and cast Canni 5?

d) I'll argue this one after OoW comes out.

e) Absolutely.  DoT aggro needs some tuning, and Shaman are hit worst with the problem. (Necros can generally feign.)

f) Slow mitigation doesn't work like that.  Read any of the 20 threads on the Crucible about it.  (Take the mechanics and mitigated percentages with a grain of salt, though - I have yet to see anyone post a definitive set of parses.)

g) Would you rather have an arsenal of DR and MR based slows, debuffs that let slows land more often, plus Quiescence, or straight MR slows that bounce quite a bit and Stonestance? I quite like the slow + stonestance combo, but realistically it doesn't let me slow named raid mobs without a Shaman.
Grimgrey Dorfeater
Troll Wildblood
Undivided Faith
Drinal

Razimir

QuotePerhaps the next expansion will get the shamans off our backs. ;)  For example there's:

That is not gonna happen because shamans wants to be better in every way than bsts, because shammies thinks they need better spell in every spell line. They will never will get SD nor SV line though, nor better pets nor pet buff/heal spells. That is why some of them keeps on whining till they or EQ dies. IMO

-Raz

Inunokami

Have to say I agree witht he above post. Sad as it may seems shaman seem to have more problems with other classes being more uber than them than any other class.  And this is coming from someone who's old main was a shammy (sure I went shammy-sk-rog-mage and then BL, but still)...
Inunokami Level 68 Barbarian Feral Lady on Quellious
Member of
Sirokuma

FIPPY & EMPEROR CRUSH in 04' !

Maulx

I agree some of the shaman requests are becoming quite rediculous.

This is coming from a former shaman X2.

Also the crubicle has really went down in quality over the years. It used to be pretty similar to this site as far as informative posts and posters.
Maulx 45 Ogre BST retired because of size of pet and size of toon.

Osone 65 Barb BST

http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1005889

Zodiax 65 Barb Shaman

Xev server

cougerofeq

Every class in the game claims something as thier "main traits" leaveing hybrids in a pickle since just about everything is claimed and we have to be weaker at everything to keep the peace. Oh wait - that doesn't even do it.