Author Topic: EQ2, who is it for  (Read 20264 times)

Offline Skanda

  • Arch Animist - 75 Beastlord
  • Savage Lord
  • *
  • Posts: 401
EQ2, who is it for
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2004, 01:20:25 PM »
Quote from: Lorathir
Are there weapon skill increases (ie You have gotten better at 1HS (11) ) and Dodge, Parry, Defence, Abjuration, Offence etc increases? I always liked the idea of having many skills I could concentrate on maxxing in EQ1. Especially Alcohol Tolerance. Is there the same sort of thing in EQ2?


From what I've heard all your skills automatically increase for every 20% of a level you get (even Alcohol Tolerance).

Offline Lorathir

  • Savage Lord
  • ******
  • Posts: 622
EQ2, who is it for
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2004, 05:59:20 PM »
Quote from: Skanda
Quote from: Lorathir
Are there weapon skill increases (ie You have gotten better at 1HS (11) ) and Dodge, Parry, Defence, Abjuration, Offence etc increases? I always liked the idea of having many skills I could concentrate on maxxing in EQ1. Especially Alcohol Tolerance. Is there the same sort of thing in EQ2?


From what I've heard all your skills automatically increase for every 20% of a level you get (even Alcohol Tolerance).


I always thought Sony were making EQ2 to appease the people that were unhappy with EQ1. Looks to me they are doing the opposite and pandering to the weeners. It could be that we've turned into a race of morons and don't know it yet.

I was all set to make a long post of all the stupid idea's that are in EQ2. But there's too many of them - the biggest being ARAC. I'll try it when it releases but I think I'll be royally pissed off. We'll see.

Offline Oneiromancer

  • Savage Lord
  • ******
  • Posts: 1143
EQ2, who is it for
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2004, 07:46:17 PM »
Quote from: Lorathir
I was all set to make a long post of all the stupid idea's that are in EQ2. But there's too many of them - the biggest being ARAC. I'll try it when it releases but I think I'll be royally pissed off. We'll see.


For the benefit of everyone else who didn't know what it meant, ARAC stands for "Any Race Any Class" (or close enough).  D&D 3.0 had ARAC, but you better have a good role-playing reason to do it or the DM probably wouldn't let you.  EQ2 doesn't have these "checks and balances" so I agree it doesn't make much sense.

Personally I think the worst idea is the shared experience debt...saw screenshots of a raid on Vox and everyone in the raid shared in the debt too I think...sounds so moronic...

Game on,
EQ: Predator Jaede Antemanx -- 68 Vah Shir Beastlord on Kane Bayle, Retired
EQ2: Lenon Cartney -- 23 Half-Elf Troubador on Befallen, Retired
WoW: Grishnakh -- 60 Orc Hunter on Malygos, Retired

Offline Iskandar

  • Wildcaller
  • Beastlord
  • ***
  • Posts: 194
    • Cohort Chalybeius
EQ2, who is it for
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2004, 10:13:22 PM »
The ARAC results in some... interesting... combinations. Troll Wizards, Ogre Enchanters, that sort of thing. By the end game, they'll be comparable to a "normal" race/class combo, but at the lower levels they'll really suffer, as the base stats of some races just aren't suited to some classes (a level 15 High Elf Cleric will have more mana than a level 15 Troll Cleric with the same gear due to differences in the initial starting stats for each race). Gear will help, but they'll still fall behind some other races who are better suited for the role until the higher levels of the game. This will make it hard for them to get reliable groups outside of friends/guildmates more than anything. Personally, I don't mind someone playing the race and class they really want to play -- but only so long as their odd choices don't endanger my advancement... having a main healer with a lower mana pool than your main tank does not make for a productive group :(

Most skills increase automatically with each level. Some require use to improve, though I haven't really paid enough attention to notice if they increase automatically even if you never use them. One more Stargate DVD left, then I can check :D

Oh, and the exp debt isn't that bad, though I think it's still in need of some tweaking. I had a REALLY bad pickup group a few days ago (despite the ease attributed to the gameplay, there's an amazingly large number of people who just don't have a clue... sadly, I was in a random pickup group with five of them *sigh*), and I ended up with eight bubs of exp debt. It faded by itself at about one bub an hour, even while I was offline and sound asleep. I think the amount earned and the rate of decay on it need to be adjusted some though.
Wildcaller Iskandar Darkpaw --  80 Beastlord, Cohort Chalybeius, Cazic Thule

“Didn’t ya hear? That which doesn’t kill you makes ya stronger. So suck it up, OK?” ~C.C.
"That which doesn't kill me makes me stronger. That which does kill me I will hunt down after I respawn." ~D.H.

Offline Tukarai

  • Brute
  • *
  • Posts: 7
EQ2, who is it for
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2004, 10:41:34 PM »
Quote from: Iskandar
There's nothing really immersive about chain pulling giants to get dragon faction though. And once the faction camping is complete, it's back to the same old "collect x item" quest structure that EQLive uses for every quest ingame. The city armor quests were neat with the backstory, but were otherwise the same "collect x item" model -- the NPC interactions are what adds spice to most of those quests. And the NPC interactions on some of the EQ2 quests are rather nicely done actually :)


And whats so immersive about EQ2 quests that makes them any better than EQLives? NPC interaction? What interaction? The text bubble in addition to the voice overs telling you what they want from you? I find root canals more immersive than EQ2. Automatic skill ups, LOL..... now thats immersive :) But hey, if you like it, more power to you.

The game is already experiencing major problems before it even gets out of beta. The "4 toons per account" thread is up to 550+ posts, and the majority of them are opposed to it. Then theres the class balance threads. And the combat problem threads. And the graphics issues threads. And stability threads, and so on and so on.

All I know is, they have less than 2 weeks to sort all the problems out. But in traditional SOE fashion, its not likely to happen. And players will be paying for beta material for about 6 months while they sort it out at thier liesure. Can you say SWG?

Offline Oneiromancer

  • Savage Lord
  • ******
  • Posts: 1143
EQ2, who is it for
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2004, 10:58:21 PM »
Quote from: Iskandar
I ended up with eight bubs of exp debt. It faded by itself at about one bub an hour, even while I was offline and sound asleep. I think the amount earned and the rate of decay on it need to be adjusted some though.


Ah, I didn't realize it went away with time.  I thought it could only be recovered with fighting.  Guess I shouldn't have assumed.  :)

Game on,
EQ: Predator Jaede Antemanx -- 68 Vah Shir Beastlord on Kane Bayle, Retired
EQ2: Lenon Cartney -- 23 Half-Elf Troubador on Befallen, Retired
WoW: Grishnakh -- 60 Orc Hunter on Malygos, Retired

Offline Iskandar

  • Wildcaller
  • Beastlord
  • ***
  • Posts: 194
    • Cohort Chalybeius
EQ2, who is it for
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2004, 09:48:10 AM »
Tuk... what is it you want in a quest in a linear MMPORPG? You've obviously got some idea of exactly what you want, otherwise you wouldn't keep bringing it up. You cite finding immersion in farming faction in EQLive... I fail to see immersion in that. Maybe it's just me, but I find that to be boring repetitive drudgery... perhaps our definitions of "immersion" are different (and note that I never said EQ2 quests were "better" than EQLive... I do find them more immersive, however, due to the eye candy, as I will comment on shortly). You call EQ2 quests equivalent to "root canals"... just what is the fundamental difference you see between an EQ2 quest and an EQLive quest? Instead of just slamming it like a typical boardtroll, discuss it. Show me the error of my ways instead of giving me a baseless uninformed slur of a game you clearly have minimal exposure to. You want class balance or combat or even graphics issues threads? Go up to the top of the forum list here at Beastlords.org. EQLive is not immune from them any more than EQ2 or WoW is. No game will ever please 100% of the people 100% of the time.

For quests, every MMP game out there uses the same basic underlying quest model, with different styles of eye candy wrapped around it. The difference between quests in EQLive, EQ2, DAoC, SWG, AC, AC2, AO, WoW, and Eve is... negligible, at best -- it's all in the presentation and how that ties into the overlying gameworld. There's no real difference between collecting two Legionnaire Shoulderpads for a Dwarf in Kaladim... collecting four Fairy Wings for a vendor in Oakmyst... killing three Jawa for a trainer on Tatooine... stealing cargo pods from a pirate cruiser in the Andressi system... etc. They all use the exact same model: player kills *a_mob01*, collects item(s), gets reward. Bounty quests are the same, regardless of the mob or game -- player kills x number of *a_mob01*, gets reward.

Quests add a second level of immersion to an otherwise stock PvE game. Each game uses a different level of character involvement, from simple hailing and repeating of stock phrases to mission terminals to submitting premade dialogue responses from a selection. Some games use faction to determine the "tone" of the NPC response or to prohibit response until certain faction requirements are met. I've yet to see a game that has a truly open quest system in terms of dialogue... I'd love to just chat at an NPC, saying whatever I please to trigger different responses... but the game coders can't add that degree of interaction to a MMPORPG with current technology. Personally, I prefer the EQLive and EQ2 techniques over the blandness of mission terminals too, but that's just me.

Beyond that, it's all eye candy. Some games use interactive emotes -- the NPCs move and gesture. Some use vocalizations, where you actually hear the conversation. Some use elaborate texture maps to add realism or details to the character and their surroundings. Some offer terrain additions, such as grass or birds, or terrain SFX, such as crickets chirping. For the actual harvesting of the quest items, some games use a one-kill method... some use random drops of varying degrees of rarity... some use subquests (ie, get item x, take to NPC2, get item y; or even combine two item x to create item y). The rewards vary also -- sometimes items of great power, sometimes items of value only to a vendor, sometimes simple coin, sometimes experience, sometimes faction. A good game will have a mix of rewards to please a mix of playertypes -- some people like the phat lewtz, some people like the faction, some just want cold hard cash. All of these options will vary from one game to the next, as each has adopted it's own standard method of quest delivery and execution.

Now, personally, I like the eye candy in more current games like AC2, WoW, and EQ2. It's why I have a video card that cost me a week's pay -- if poor chocky graphics were fine, I'd still be playing Galaga or Pong. :P  Eye candy allows for more immersion in a game... imagine, sitting by a brook, hearing the water trickle over the stones behind you while shafts of sunlight filter through the tree above you, dancing across the water's surface. A cluster of butterflys flitter by, weaving around a leaf that's falling from the tree. The light crunch of a deer's footsteps betrays his appraoch as he nears, turns to look at you, then saunters away. Overhead, a hawk screeches as it hunts for prey. As the sun sets, stars begin to twinkle through the darkening sky, crickets chirp in the distance, and fireflies come out, dancing a random dance among the branches of the tree, reflecting eerily in the light ripples of the brook. THAT is immersion in my book, not waiting 7 minutes for a_giant07258 to spawn where a_giant07257 just died. I gladly pay for games that offer me that level of immersion, that level of detail. And if you want to see that very spot, go to the northern covered bridge between the Oracle Tower and Windstalker Village in EQ2. :)

When you get right down to the bottom line, the whole idea behind the quest system, regardless of the game platform it is based from or the eye candy around it, is to keep the player busy ingame and reward them for their time.  The end result, regardless of the reward, is to keep as many of the players playing (and happily playing) as possible -- long-term players = long-term profits, and the more long-term players you have, the higher those profits go.

That, in a nutshell, is Quests 101. If you want to further illustrate how similar quests are from one game to the next, answer this question:  What quest is this? -- an NPC asks you to deliver an item to a second NPC some distance away. After delivering the item, the second NPC asks you to further help by killing a_mob01.  I'm curious if anyone will guess which game and which quest this is -- I'm willing to bet the answers will be quite diverse :)[code:1][/code:1]
Wildcaller Iskandar Darkpaw --  80 Beastlord, Cohort Chalybeius, Cazic Thule

“Didn’t ya hear? That which doesn’t kill you makes ya stronger. So suck it up, OK?” ~C.C.
"That which doesn't kill me makes me stronger. That which does kill me I will hunt down after I respawn." ~D.H.

Offline Drakh

  • Savage
  • *
  • Posts: 45
EQ2, who is it for
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2004, 12:05:42 PM »
I love it when people compare a new games content with content from a like game with 7+ expansions behind it...

- On Combat -
EQ 1 you click autoattack and occationally hit bash or kick and hope you kill the mob before the mob kills you.
EQ 2 you click autoattack and furiously work to execute Heroic Opportunites in an atempt to gain the advantage and kill the mob before it kills you.

Learning the Tactics of Heroic Opportunites (Solo or in Groups) will give you the ability to defeat mobs beyond your capability

" i personally have gone from soloing blues and greens to killing whites and even yellows with the Tactics of Heroic Opportunities. "

- On Quests -

Look at the Initial EQ 1 Quests - kill mobs, collect items, and hand to NPC_01. This was how EVERY quest in the initial release of EQ 1 worked.
The only reason for doing these quests was for items they awarded (with the exception of the occational orc belt, shoulderpad quests which where good xp at low levels)

EQ 2 has Fed-Ex quests, Kill Quests, Quests Involving Instanced Dungeons (LDoNs if you like), progressive quests, Quests from Items, and Quests from scenery.
The reasons for doing quests in EQ 2 are as follows, XP, Coin, Items, Progression.

" Questing is a viable way to level in EQ - i personally made level 14 without killing a single mob with the exception of those kills needed for class progression "


The EQ 1 aspects have improved over time and so will EQ 2 improve as more expansions come out - why will you have to wait for expansions? because EQ 1 and 2 both share the same principle - the game is there to make SOE money and they will make more money by releasing expansions.

Savage Lord Drakh Darkscale, 69.70 Feral Lord, <Europa> Druzzil Ro
"You don't just go around punching people. You have to say something cool first!"- Joe Hallenbeck, The Last Boy Scout.[/color]

Offline Lorathir

  • Savage Lord
  • ******
  • Posts: 622
EQ2, who is it for
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2004, 07:01:32 PM »
Quote from: Drakh

EQ 2 you click autoattack and furiously work to execute Heroic Opportunites in an atempt to gain the advantage and kill the mob before it kills you.

Learning the Tactics of Heroic Opportunites (Solo or in Groups) will give you the ability to defeat mobs beyond your capability


Maybe I'm just picking up on the wrong threads, but current opinion is that battles are over so quickly, there's little in the way of strategy or tactics. Priests spam heals constantly, melee bash ability buttons as soon as they are available. A few people have likened the battle system in EQ2 to "Whack-A-Mole." People aren't using the HO system because there's no time.

I have to restate, this is only what I've seen people commenting on. I'm not in beta so I haven't experienced this, I'm just going on what people have been saying, so I'll happily stand corrected if this isn't the case.

Offline Drakh

  • Savage
  • *
  • Posts: 45
EQ2, who is it for
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2004, 01:03:24 PM »
Combat is fast and furious but its not a simple case at constantly spaming heals/attacks. well it is for the first 10 levels but once you start hitting the bigger zones strategies do come into it more.
for those not aware you will be level 6 before you leave the "newbie isle" and you can expect to be level 8 by the time you have finished your initial citizenship quests.

As you get more levels you get more abilities/spells and you get more combinations of Heroic Opportunities.

Also Heal aggro is very high - its not possible for a healer to start spam healing right away before the fighter engages because the mob will simply eat the cleric. clerics must time their heals and give the tanks enough time to generate aggro. (Early beta this was very hard but its been tweaked alot during the 6 weeks i been in beta)

heres some info on predator DPS

predators get sneak attack which is high damage while flanking the mob - you lose this extra damage while soloing but you can use abilities to use it solo...
cheap shot is a short delay stun that will interrupt spellcasting, if you hit the mob again the stun breaks before the second duration is up...
so predators can (with some practice i might add) cheap shot (stun), attack off, move behind mob, sneak attack, ;)
you can also combine this with a Heroic Opportunity for even more damage...

Sneak ... creep up behind the mob,
Shadow attack ... initiate attack on mob (shadow attack can only be used while sneaking), <this starts a HO Chance>
Cheap Shot
... stuns mob <this activates the HO chance>
Attack-off
... Move behind mob
Sneak Attack ... this does alot of damage from behind
Quick Strike ... this does increased damage in a fast attack < this completes the HO and does additional damage to the mob>

Quote
People aren't using the HO system because there's no time.


On a green mob i can get one or 2 HOs off, on blue or whites it can take me 5 or more HOs to drop the mob solo at arround level 15. (sometimes you hit sometimes you miss so you cant always get a HO off.

If a group is not having enough time to use HOs then they are in the wrong XP spot.

mobs are grey (no xp), green, blue, white, yellow, orange, red

mobs also have ^ and v rankings (up arrow and down arrows)

the arrows represent how tough the mob is and is generally the equivilent of another mob.

for example a level 10 orc with one up arrow ( ^ ) is the same as fighting 2 level 10 orcs, the same orc with two up arrows ( ^^ ) is the same as fighting 3-4 level 10 orcs.

The arrows are a good designation of group content vs solo.  groups may be killing yellows but if they are all v (one down arrow) the mobs are simply too easy and will die really fast.

I personally have soloed a Yellow v using just half my health and power and then got my ass handed to me by a Green ^^ a few mobs later :)

Savage Lord Drakh Darkscale, 69.70 Feral Lord, <Europa> Druzzil Ro
"You don't just go around punching people. You have to say something cool first!"- Joe Hallenbeck, The Last Boy Scout.[/color]

Offline Iskandar

  • Wildcaller
  • Beastlord
  • ***
  • Posts: 194
    • Cohort Chalybeius
EQ2, who is it for
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2004, 05:51:12 PM »
Armor con and spell levels will also make huge difference in combat. My Shaman, for example, was getting owned by yellow solo mobs when he wore mostly grey-con armor. I upgraded to yellow-con armor and had no problems with those same mobs after that. As in EQ1, higher AC will make the mobs miss you more and hit you for less when they don't miss -- it adds up fast :)

The same goes for spells -- App1 is the default starter level, App2 is purchased from NPC vendors, App3 is playermade, and Adept1 is a mob drop. At the very least, buy the App2's when you can, or App3 if a player is selling them cheap enough. The higher level will increase the duration of some spells, lower mana costs, increase direct damage, and generally make them much more efficient at doing what they do. With an App1 Smite, my Shaman would almost go oom chain-nuking an even con Coldwind Octopus... with Adept1 Smite, he'd finish the same mob with about half mana.

For fights, Drakh is spot-on about heal aggro. A healer who spams heals is just gonna get aggro and get killed (I love it when a Gnoll shouts out "Git the healer!" :P). Some of the Heroic Opportunities provide group heals or group power regen, some provide haste or damage bonuses, some do direct damage or increase spell damage -- so they are well worth the time to trigger. Some of the fights I was in would have wiped my group easily if not for HO's. And it's not like you stare at the spell bars waiting for something to blink either... after a few experiences with it, it's no more intrusive than hitting Kick or Bash or a nuke when it refreshes. :)
Wildcaller Iskandar Darkpaw --  80 Beastlord, Cohort Chalybeius, Cazic Thule

“Didn’t ya hear? That which doesn’t kill you makes ya stronger. So suck it up, OK?” ~C.C.
"That which doesn't kill me makes me stronger. That which does kill me I will hunt down after I respawn." ~D.H.

Offline Kinash

  • Beastlord
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
    • http://www.tomkobeer.com
Re: EQ2, who is it for
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2004, 11:21:12 PM »
Quote from: Logato
I've been playing EQ2 beta since late July. Thought I would let you all know who it's for.

EQ2 if for groupers. If you don't want to get into a group of 4 or more people, 99% of the meaningfull content after lvl 20 you will not be able to do.

You make be able to find mobs to solo, but you won't be able to finish class quests, item quests, access quests or even to get into some of the zones.

EQ2 is LESS for soloers and casual players than EQLive. The game is going to have fewer people playing it than SWG, and probably fewer than EQLive also.


I got the exact opposite impression of EQ2 during the beta. It has much more solo content and is much friendlier for the casual player as there are no time constraints for quests.... do them at your own pace. I only grouped a few times during the beta, just for a few specific quests that involved mobs that are grouped themselves. Even then, there are wanderers that you can get to fulfill the quest, it will just take a lot longer as those wanderers aren't as plentiful as the grouped mobs. For me EQ2 is a great game when I can't get KEI or Virtue in EQ1. I just pop in for a hour or so and can work on one of many solo quests without having to worry about grouping.
Kinash Kattar
Level 66, Khati Sha Apprentice
Tholuxe Paells (Bertox)
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=594639