Main Menu

Nuking Efficiency and the Beastlord

Started by Azmod, November 03, 2004, 10:56:49 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Azmod

Assumptions made for the purposes of these calculations, no fizzles, no resists or partial damage. this merely is to calculate potential damage, not actual output.

Cast time Hybrid reductions, I am using a 40% reduction in cast time, but as this may not be entirely accurate the numbers based off this cast time are shown in ( ).

Categories are, space delimited, Level, Name of Nuke, Listed Damage, Cast Time(reduced cast time), Recast Delay, DPS of single cast(DPE with reduced cast time), Damage per Mana, Total Damage potential of the course of 1 minute while chain casting that nuke.
note: Spears are unaffected by the reduced cast time in chain casting mode due to their recast delay.

Spears
70 - Ancient Savage Ice : 332 1002 3.2(1.9) 30 313.12(527.37) 3.02 2004
69 - Glacier Spear : 312 928 3.2(1.9) 30 290.00(488.42) 2.99 1856
65 - Ancient Frozen Chaos : 300 810 3.2(1.9) 30 253.12(426.32) 2.70 1620
65 - Trushar's Frost : 274 742 3.2(1.9) 30 231.88(390.53) 2.71 1484
63 - Frost Spear : 250 675 3.2(1.9) 30 210.94(355.26) 2.70 1350
54 - Ice Shard : 150 450 3.2(1.9) 30 140.62(236.84) 3.00 900
49 - Frost Shard : 100 300 3.2(1.9) 30 93.75(157.89) 3.00 600
34 - Ice Spear : 50 150 3.2(1.9) 30 46.88(78.95) 3.00 300

Blasts
59 - Blizzard Blast : 200 430 5.3(3.18) 2.25 81.13(135.22) 2.15 3010(4730)
30 - Spirit Strike : 75 81 2.45(1.47) 2.25 33.06(55.10) 1.08 972(1296)
15 - Blast of Frost : 20 20 2.45(1.47) 2.25 8.16(13.60) 1.00 240(320)

These two lines have some very interesting considerations.

For maximal damage output from a single spell slot over the course of a 1 minute fight the Blasts are much better in total output. While the Spears are lower overall damage but a lot more mana efficient.

However, if by some strange circumstance you should find yourself with all 8 Spears loaded in the course of a one minute fight you can lay out a rather impressive 10114 damage, or 168.57 dps just by chaining Spears. For a mere 1868 mana... lol. Ok, you won't be repeating that real often, but still...

Using just the commonly available Spears (Glacier, Frost, Ice Shard, Frost Shard and Ice ) one can build a rather impressive set of nukes that can be a powerful addition to standard melee with a minimal reduction in melee output. If your spell setup doesn't have the room for more than one nuke and you cast more than once or twice a fight, then it might be better to load and use one of the Blasts than a Spear, especially if you nuke to stop runners.
Azmod 66 Beastlord of The Seventh Hammer

Oneiromancer

Quote from: AzmodCategories are, space delimited, Level, Name of Nuke, Mana Cost, Listed Damage, Cast Time(reduced cast time), Recast Delay, DPS of single cast(DPE with reduced cast time), Damage per Mana, Total Damage potential of the course of 1 minute while chain casting that nuke.
note: Spears are unaffected by the reduced cast time in chain casting mode due to their recast delay.

FTFY :)

Game on,
EQ: Predator Jaede Antemanx -- 68 Vah Shir Beastlord on Kane Bayle, Retired
EQ2: Lenon Cartney -- 23 Half-Elf Troubador on Befallen, Retired
WoW: Grishnakh -- 60 Orc Hunter on Malygos, Retired

Nusa

Two major factors you left out are increased damage due to criticals (significant  if you have all the AA's) and loss of melee damage during casting (for the well equipped, signicant enough to precude the use of the blasts and all but the top spears in normal situations. As for runners, a minute is a very long time -- how much damage you can do in 10 seconds is a much more important value.

Coprolith

Potential damage over X amount of time isnt DMG * X/(cast_time+recast_time) but DMG* (X/(cast_time+recast_time) + 1). The values you list are strictly speaking valid only if you continue chaining the spells over a very long period of time.
Neglecting cast time I can, for instance, fire off 3 Spears in the first minute, at t=0s, t=30s and t=60s.
Since under normal gameplay burst dps from chain nuking is only a matter of minutes you cannot neglect this effect.

/hugs
Elder Coprolith III
Trollie ferrul lawd of 65 levels (retired)

Azmod

Quote from: NusaTwo major factors you left out are increased damage due to criticals (significant  if you have all the AA's) and loss of melee damage during casting (for the well equipped, signicant enough to precude the use of the blasts and all but the top spears in normal situations. As for runners, a minute is a very long time -- how much damage you can do in 10 seconds is a much more important value.

It is impossible to calculate the effects of Crits and AA's, as well as Melee damage loss. Try to find any 2 BST's with the exact same AA setup AND the exact same Melee items, now they also have to have the exact same Item haste, the exact same spell haste, the same set of Foci, pant, pant pant... etc...

If they have all of that then I can calculate the effects, but there are literally millions of potential set points on a 4 dimensional graph before all could be covered.
I chose the 1 minute period as this was created primarily in response to a Wizard board post that used 1 min as the "standard duration of an exp battle". I did include the single cast to display the burst features as few beasts I know of will chain cast in normal roles.


Quote from: CoprolithPotential damage over X amount of time isnt DMG * X/(cast_time+recast_time) but DMG* (X/(cast_time+recast_time) + 1). The values you list are strictly speaking valid only if you continue chaining the spells over a very long period of time.

Sorry, didn't make it real clear, I was trying deal here strictly with Nuking damage for the long duration purposes, but did include the single cast for purposes of Burst casting. Wanted to make it clear that on those mobs that are nearly melee immune, or a real pain to get or keep in melee range of, that we are not crippled. We DO have an option as a caster, no Wiz for sure, but we are not nuking helpless.

Quote from: CoprolithNeglecting cast time I can, for instance, fire off 3 Spears in the first minute, at t=0s, t=30s and t=60s.  

 But the whole point is you cannot ignore cast time. MA calls 'Assist' and you mash the button, 60s later the mob falls over. Your Spear casts will actually be at t=3.2s, t=36.4s and t=69.6s, but the last cast hits the corpse long after its stopped twitching.

Chain say 3 spears and the times would be t1=3.2s, t2=6.4s, t3=9.6s, t1=36.4s, t2=39.6s and t3=42.8s. Over the 60s fight that is.

For me at least in some cases I would do more potential DPS standing back and playing wizard with several Spears and a Blast, than with melee
Azmod 66 Beastlord of The Seventh Hammer

Coprolith

I was just ignoring cast times to make the example easier to understand. Did you study Chemistry perhaps that you try to make everything more difficult then it needs to be?  :D
Whether its 3 nukes or 2.876564748 nukes in the first minute is irrelevant to the point i was trying to make. Nobody chain nukes for hours on end, so why bother comparing those numbers? Taking into account that first cast at t=0s makes the potential burst damage for the Spears come alot closer to the Blasts.

Long term sustained nuke dps is proportional to (dmg/mana)*mana_regen_rate, i.o.w. at constant mana regen rate the dmg/mana numbers are already an indicator for the difference in long term dps. Casting and recasting times don't figure in it at all.

/hugs
Elder Coprolith III
Trollie ferrul lawd of 65 levels (retired)

negrismorte

Quote from: AzmodFor me at least in some cases I would do more potential DPS standing back and playing wizard with several Spears and a Blast, than with melee

I find myself doing just this on many raids - at least during clearing.  Send in pet & nuke a couple times > pet, run up, try to hit it while all the other melee are clamoring about

Aneya

I also sometimes switch into nuke mode on raids. Especialy Time Phase 3.
EQ Aneya 70 Beastlord Tarew Marr
EQ2 Evalin Swashbuckler Mistmoore

Azmod

Quote from: CoprolithI was just ignoring cast times to make the example easier to understand. Did you study Chemistry perhaps that you try to make everything more difficult then it needs to be?  :D

Ummm, err... does working 22 years in Food/Soil/Physical Properties Chem lab count, lol.... mutter mutter, damned mind readers...  :P

Quote from: CoprolithWhether its 3 nukes or 2.876564748 nukes in the first minute is irrelevant to the point i was trying to make. Nobody chain nukes for hours on end, so why bother comparing those numbers? Taking into account that first cast at t=0s makes the potential burst damage for the Spears come alot closer to the Blasts.

Long term sustained nuke dps is proportional to (dmg/mana)*mana_regen_rate, i.o.w. at constant mana regen rate the dmg/mana numbers are already an indicator for the difference in long term dps. Casting and recasting times don't figure in it at all.

Philosophical differences I guess. To me I don't see 2.87654 nuke cycles as 2.87654*Base_Dmg, instead I see it as int(2.87654) or 2.000000, a rather massive difference i fear.

True, sustained nuke dps is indeed factored off of mana recovery. Launching a single Spear every 33.2, errr, 30 seconds gives a fairly large window for mana recovery, especially when you add up all the potential recoveries these days, SD+9+Cxx+FT, the per tic recovery can recover all or most of the cast cost while you are still meleeing.

Hmmm, it might be better to calc nuke dps as a mod/step function... based more off the mana recovery interval than a strictly second by second track.
Azmod 66 Beastlord of The Seventh Hammer

Coprolith

QuoteUmmm, err... does working 22 years in Food/Soil/Physical Properties Chem lab count, lol.... mutter mutter, damned mind readers...

Hah, i knew it!  :D

QuotePhilosophical differences I guess. To me I don't see 2.87654 nuke cycles as 2.87654*Base_Dmg, instead I see it as int(2.87654) or 2.000000, a rather massive difference i fear.

Not a philosophical at all. That only works for the first minute, but the remainder of 0.87 nukes is ghost dps that you take with you to the next minute. Is there some rule that says you're only allowed to nuke for one minute exactly? If your first cast of Glacier Spear lands at t=3.2s and the next ones at 36.4s and 69.6s then your dps at t=3.2s is 290, at t=36.3 its 25.6, at t=36.4s its 50.1, at t=60 its 30.9, at t= 69.6 its 40. You'd get different dps numbers depending on how long you are nuking. If you want to compare spells then you have to compare averages, and that means including non-integer number of casts per minute.

All im saying is that you're calculating something that can only be described as 'sustained burst dps', which has no bearing whatsoever on real gameplay.

You're either doing doing sustained dps, nuking only when mana allows, or burst damage for just a minute or two in which case you have to allow for that first cast at t=0s (alright t=3.2s  :wink: ).

If you chain nuke any longer you come to the limit of draining your mana pool, at which point you will have done a total amount of damage equal to (size_of_mana_pool/mana_per_cast) * spell_dmg. And that's neglecting mana regen. You'd drain your mana pool much faster with Blasts then with Spears (a further complication is that most people will be alternating Spears for their burst dps which lessens that effect) which gives you less mana regen'ed in the time it takes to drain your mana pool. But you also drain your mana faster with Glacier Spear then with Frost Spear. By the time your mana is drained you may have regen'ed enough mana for an additional 2 FSs but only one GS.
So then the calculation becomes increasingly difficult. It depends on each individual's mana pool and mana regen rate, how many spells they're cycling etc. There's no way to allow for all those factors to get a meaningfull dps number.

The smart way is to realize that you have two limits, burst dps, dmg*(X/(cast+recast time)+1), and sustained dps (dmg/mana), and everything else just falls inbetween.

/hugs
Elder Coprolith III
Trollie ferrul lawd of 65 levels (retired)