Agility, what's it good for?

[Ghoat]

Damn Coprolith that nearly made my brain explode.

Usually counting past 10 has that effect on trolls ;)

[Coprolith]

Err.. one, two, many, lots    :mrgreen:

[Mahes]

Have to hand it to you, Coprolith.  Your parsing and analysis has been a blessing to our community.

I, and I'm sure others, really appreciate the time you've taken to break down the effects of stats, AAs, etc on the Beastlord class.

Sure, sometimes it creates an intense pressure on the inner portion of my skull, but in the end it's all good.

/hug right back at you.  :)

[Scalewulf]

"But you do anyway, in this case you want there to be an effect of AGI so your brain starts looking for pattern and suddenly notices the periods in which you get hit less often (by pure random fluctuation) more then it did before."

I got love and respect for ya Cop, but the same could be said for those people who DO NOT have agi over 100, 200, etc...    They don't want there to be a diference, so they don't believe there is.  

It can go both ways and thus, why and extended parse of the subject is needed.

:wink:

[Rippykin]

the same could be said for those people who DO NOT have agi over 100, 200, etc... They don't want there to be a diference, so they don't believe there is.

It can go both ways and thus, why and extended parse of the subject is needed

With respect I believe this is faulty reasoning. The issue at hand is the effectiveness of agility to *demonstrably* change the results of combat. The point being made by those who parse -- and I don't lay claim to doing any more than logging my fights and looking at dps for personal curiosity -- is that they *cannot* find a significant difference.

So, when someone says, "I used an agility buff and *noticed* taking fewer hits from a mob" the reality is that humans are not capable of accumulating reliable statistical information watching hits scroll on a screen. It's like wandering around in a forest trying to count and catalog animals. You end up with anecdotes about snippets of experience.

If analyzing a parse of a few thousand lines of combat doesn't turn up any "Agility Bears"--the equivalent to clear cutting a section of forest and rounding up all the animals, then they're mighty rare. If agility had a powerful effect, it would be found underfoot even in short parses.

Mind you, if probability and statistics was intuitive most forms of gambling would disappear.

Rippykin 65 Beastlord
Quellious

[Coprolith]

I got love and respect for ya Cop, but the same could be said for those people who DO NOT have agi over 100, 200, etc... They don't want there to be a diference, so they don't believe there is.

I can feel the love Scalewulf  :D
You're wrong tho, most people that claim AGI has little effect base their judgement on parses, not their feelings. Im sure there are plenty of people with low AGI that think adding more AGI would help tremenduously, but they simply haven't got the means to up it yet.

Telling people they're wrong, now that's real troll loving  :wink:
There's only one way and that's the Troll way  :twisted:


/hugs

[Nunyabiz]

im one of the few that really dont give a infected ratz arse about "parses" 98% of them prove ziltch one way or another.

I go by what my char does IN GAME. and if its just IN MY BRAIN that im getting hit less with my AGI at 305 then thats all fine and dandy to me.

As a Beastlord your an AVOIDANCE class, you wear leather your NEVER going to get high AC and even if you could your on a different AC scale anyway from plate so you gain less benefit.
and thats even more pronounced now after that latest patch that upped Warriors AC mitigation even more.

What i did is go with the flow of my char, most of my good equipment has good AGI stats, crappy AC.
I maxed my def AAs asap CA3/LR5/CS3/ID5/PE plus 305 AGI and add in some +8% to Dodge and Block augs and your as good as your ever going to get as a Beastlord.
Just need to really work on your HPs

I tank Mobs that hit for 1000 or less damn well regardless of what some so called parse says is completely moot to me.
Before i got ANY AAs i had high (255) AGI, worked good for my BRAIN and char IN GAME just fine.

[Goretzu]

Yep basically there's no reason NOT to have good agility (even if all it does is add a bit of AC).


And it's possible it does have an effect in some of the newer (well 'new' comparatively :)) abilities (such as AA's), but all the parses I've seen show that it's got no noticable effect other than adding some AC.  :(

[Thrashum Gud]

I use bright colors to track things.  My hits are yellow, mob hits are red, spells are dark blue, when they wear off it's lime green.  Other than that I have no other forms of battlespam.

Maybe it is just my imagination but I don't see nearly as many red text lines as I do yellow ones.  IMHO part of that is my agi and part of it is my continual use of FoL.

Hard data may indeed prove my reasoning to be faulty but I have faith that the higehr my agi the less hits I take.  I've run too many toons of nearly all (never a bard or monk) classes and I find it holds true for each of them.  The higher the agi the less I see red text.

I'm happy with that.

[Tastian]

"im one of the few that really dont give a infected ratz arse about "parses" 98% of them prove ziltch one way or another.

I go by what my char does IN GAME. "

Ok we went over this on the old board, but let's do it again ONE MORE TIME!! A "parse" is simply going through your LOGFILE.  Your LOGFILE is just a text version of what your CHAT WINDOW IS!  Now since the logfile has the exact samething that your chat window has there is no error there.  Since a parser just goes through and pulls the data out the only "error" from parsing is if the parser is bugged or you give it the wrong information / draw the wrong conclussions.

Think about it like this.  If you take a book and flip through it fast you have SOME idea what was in the book, some idea of the order some idea of the numbers, etc.  Now I hand you that book and tell you to go through it page by page, as slow as you want as many times as you want.  Now which do you think is more accurate.  You think parses mean ziltch yet I'm willing to bet you've never opened your log file and actually rechecked what you thought you saw in game.  Actually hard tallied fights by hand and calculated dps.  I've done all of these things well coding some of the parsing tools I've used.

You want to go by your eyes that's great let me share a few more things that people over the years have confirmed with their eyes!

1)  Charisma boosts slow
2)  Losing yellow stamina bar slowed your attacks
3)  Harmony gives MANA REGEN
4)  Atk effects hit rate
5)  Dexterity effects hit rate
6)  Agility effects WEAPON PROCS


I can go on and on and on and every single one of them is "true" because someone's brain saw it and interpreted it.  You are happy with your character nunya and I'm happy for you I really am, but I have grown so sick and tired of your "brain" and your "opinion" being used to counter FACTS from in game tests, logs, parses, etc.  You play your char you do your thing, but if someone asks XXX and YYY has been PROVEN time and time again by people spending countless time, please don't just dismiss it because YOUR brain THOUGHT it saw ZZZ.  

Seriously if you "think" you see something just open your log file and give it a look.  All you are doing is re-reading something you saw all at once.  Take out a little piece of paper and do some tally'n.  Most won't and they don't have to, but if you are going to argue dozens of hours of controlled testing with "feelings and beliefs" then I'll save my time from putting up parses and I'll just go "well I saw that you are wrong" and be done with it.

[Aggy]

Cop is right - AGI has VERY little impact on tanking ability.  The chart that he posted showing the AC jump when AGI goes from <75 to over 75 was from Kaitlin's (sp?) old warrior site - the data was either her's or Ruatha - two stalwarts of the old school warrior sommunity form back when the best EQ warrior boards were on the stratics web site (am I dating myself?? ;) ).  

The data from that experiment cleary showed that there is an AC jump when you go over 75 AGI...but there is no known sudden jump for any other value of AGI.  Personally, I look at it as a penalty for having AGI UNDER 75....not a bonus for over....but that is just semantics.
:)

Eyeballing effectiveness of things that you change on your character is fine....if it makes YOU happy.  BUt IMHO if you are ever going to speak up and make an assertion about something, you either need to parse your results, or not bother posting.

Anything less and you are committing the sin of muddlefication: spreading your ignorance is not a good way to create a knowledgable player base!!

I've been playing EQ (and reading the web forums for the melee classes) since release.  I consider myself very knowledgable when it comes to things that I have seen the data on...things that I know to be true because I have seen the real (scientific, if you will) evidence.

I have seen evidence that AGI has a very small effect on AC.  Monks get a higher return on their AGI "investment" than any other class...this MAY apply to BLs - I have never seen the data on BLs.

I have seen parses (many parses...) testing the effectiveness of AGI on tanking ability.  The Shaman's crucible did testing...the warrior community did testing...the SKs and Paladins did testing.  I have never seen any evidence presented that shows AGI having more than a very minor role in tanking ability...VERY minor.

AC, on the other hand, has been proven to have a very viable (and visable, via parsing) effect on tanking ability.  Yes, there is evidence that there are 'soft caps' were AC increases prove less effective, but these soft caps are going to be pretty much out of the reach of a BL, accept in the case of a BL tanking in the Old World (guk, SolB, etc) - where the soft cap is around ~900 AC.  In all other cases, from Kunark through POP, the evidence points to the soft cap (which is probably tied to MoB ATK rating) as being 1050AC or higher.

What does the AC evidence mean?  IMO it means that a BL (or any other class that is going to tank) should put their gear efforts into things that they KNOW will provide a return for their investment.

If your AGI is consistently over 75, its high enough.  Sure...more is better, but never at the expense of AC or HP...or stats that have been shown to have a statistical impact on the game (AGI, STR and STA...even WIS to improve your mana pool).

If you want to tank better, raise your AC.

One more point.  Somebody mentioned the using items with +block and +dodge mods one them.  Some of the paladins over at Paladins of Norrath did some great parsing tests of the effectiveness of such items.  There was such a tiny improvement in the overall effectiveness of tanking ability that it was very, very close to being statiscally insignificant...even with very large data sources.  the +mod effects on items are practically useless.

I apologize if I sound arrogant...or if I sound rude.  My posts are never meant to be that way...ever.  But I DO have a serious problem with people spreading bad inforamtion ont he EQ web forums...bad information leads to bad decisions....and it CAN lead to bad players.  

I never want to see people who take the time to go out and visit the EQ boards become LESS informed for their efforts!
:)

[Thrashum Gud]

+ agility = damage avoidance the higher it is the less often you get hit

+ agility = higher AC think the formula for a warrior was 3 agi = 1 ac

if your base Agi was 75 and you got armor and buffs which put you to 255 agi, thats 180 agi boost. Divide this by 3 gives you a total of 60ac. So 1 point in agi really does not do anything. It's when you increase the total to a higher degree does it actually make a difference. From 75 agi to 200 agi is about 42 ac. Who here wouldn't want 42 or 60 more ac?

That's from the other forum under the same topic.  

AC, on the other hand, has been proven to have a very viable (and visable, via parsing) effect on tanking ability

I stand by what I have already said, higher agi equates to higher ac which means I get hit less thus I see less lines of red text when fighting a mob.  When using a spell like Frenzy that adds a +25 it's a larger jump and it's more noticeable because it's a larger increase in the plus to ac as a result in the addition to agi.

[Soriab]

AC doesnt mean you get hit less it means you have a better chance to mitigate the hit so you will not be hit for max.

Your Dodge Block, Rip, thats where the misses come from.

[Coprolith]

Well said Aggy.

bad statistics and wishful thinking are the source of 95% of all the monkey tales going around in EQ (the remaining 5% being pranks that grew out of proportion)

It is always possible that AGI effect has had an upgrade, after all i found the same for STR just weeks ago. But i found it by experimentation thru rigorous parsing. If you plan to go against the accepted knowledge (knowledge that itself was obtained thru experiment and analysis of data) then you'd better make sure you have solid data to go on.

Right now, the accepted knowledge, obtained thru parsing, is that the effects of AGI are minimal. Saying you feel it does make a difference cuts no mustard, experimental evidence is the only grounds you can have to claim the contrary. The latest AGI parse i've seen dates back about half a year ago and showed no change whatsoever. Without experimental evidence you have simply have no claim, and, as Aggy said, you are merely spreading disinformation. Not to mention its an insult to all the people who did the hard work of performed those parses. Their intent, as is mine, is to help the general EQ populace by providing the information that SOE just won't give.

/hugs

[Morganti]

actually

your dodge block riposte is where they you dodge you block you riposte messages come from...

most of the misses are from mob hit rating vs your defense rating...

its something that could be parsed out rather easily...

find a mob with a set level that you out regen vs its dps, and let it wack on you for a while...i would do a from the front and from the back...


otherwise we would get hit 100% of the time when mobs are beating on us in the back, and they sometimes still miss...