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Agility, what's it good for?

Started by Logato, January 08, 2004, 12:42:00 PM

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Aggy

Quote from: Thrashum Gud

I stand by what I have already said, higher agi equates to higher ac which means I get hit less thus I see less lines of red text when fighting a mob.  When using a spell like Frenzy that adds a +25 it's a larger jump and it's more noticeable because it's a larger increase in the plus to ac as a result in the addition to agi.


I hate to do this, but I can't resist the temptation...

25 AGI at 1 AC per 3 AGI = 8 AC

If you normally run @ 1000 AC, tht is a gain of 8 tenths of one percent in your AC.

Even if that meant you got hit 1% less frequently (which it doesn't, since AC is a combination of both mitigation and avoidance), a difference of less than 1% would be impossible to accurately notice by a human observer...even a highly trained observer could not differentiate between a 1% variance by observation alone: they would need to parse it to see the difference.

Impossible, Thrash...you are seeing the difference becasue you WANT to see the difference.
:)

feralize

Quote from: Nunyabizim one of the few that really dont give a infected ratz arse about "parses" 98% of them prove ziltch one way or another

Translation: I ignore all parses as justification for building my character around the AGI stat.
[65 Feral Lord] http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=750138" >Feralize (Iksar) 163aa : [65 Arcanist] http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=758777" >Kikagoki (Froglok) 39aa : [62 Warlock] http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=679674" >Bonekasta (Erudite) 29aa : [62 Warder] http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=846383" >Traku (Human) 6aa : [56 Troubador] http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=986526" >Twotonic (Vah Shir) 3aa : [51 Crusader] http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=865632" >Ubinusan (Erudite) : [51 Brawler] http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1045121" >Drolthar (Dwarf) : [44 Shaman] http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=986554" >Jikkorak (Iksar) : [40 Druid] http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1045106" >Ceggan (Halfling)

Nunyabiz

NO,
AGI works for me, be it my head or not is my problem.

When it comes right down to it you can parse parse parse til your eyes fall out and its not going to prove squat overall.

The ONLY things that have a hard percentage of anything are your AAs plain and simple.

RNG>All

ALL stats such as AC/AGI/Dex/Str etc give just a little bit better chance to mitigate/miss/proc/average hit and so on.

Your AGI/Dex/Str/Sta/Wis are all going to be maxed as you lvl anyway so arguing about what it does or doesnt do is rather pointless.

Best is to get as many HPs and AAs as you can manage those are the ONLY 2 things that really matter in the long run.

currently im sitting at all stats maxed at 305 (buffed) with 7687Hps (raid buffed) 306AAs spent with 30 saved up and only 1282 AC.
I tank just fine, dont seem to be in my head either unless somehow its a group/guild illusion, but at least all of us having the same drug trip :)

Either way believe whatever you wish.
I know back when i was around 60 or so AGI was just as good of an improvment for me as anything else i did.
I noticed a nice little improvement between 150sih to 255 AGI before i had any AAs.
Thats all that mattered to me.

Nunyabiz

I have never seen any evidence presented that shows AGI having more than a very minor role in tanking ability...VERY minor.

Yeah, and that can be said about EVERY other stat bar none, so whats your point?

100AC means VERY little.
100HP means VERY little.
100Dex means VERY little.
etc

If your looking for the magic bullet its in your AAs.

The only thing that really means jack is CA3/LR5/CS3/ID5/PE

Rest of it is just a very small percentage that all adds up no more no less.

Since i happen to be an avoidance class I bumped my avoidance as high as possible go figure.

Coprolith

100 AC means way more then 100AGI when you're below the mob's "ac soft cap", which you'll usually be unless you're fighting exclusively in Lower Guk or SolB
100 HPs means way more then 100AGI unless you are tanking mobs that do over a 100 dps exclusively. As an added benefit, that 100HPs will help you survive AEs for which AGI does nothing. Bonus bonus is that it only takes 2 or 3 pieces of gear tops to add 100HP, whereas adding 100AGI requires an upgrade of almost every piece of equipment. Not everyone has access to PoTime with its +25 to AGI gear you know.
100 STR means wayyyy more then 100AGI. If you're soloing, the dps gain from 100 STR will reduce fight time by such an amount that the damage reduction is more then you get from 100 AGI. If you are raiding or in an exp group but not tanking, you'll still get your benefit from 100 STR but your 100AGI is worth less then 100 CHA. If you happen to be one of the two BSTs that are tanking for exp groups 100% of the time, 100AGI may give you more then 100STR, but then again, so will 100 raw AC.
100 DEX is worth less then 100AGI until you get some proccing weapons and the CF skill. When you get those, DEX suddenly starts increasing your dps, see STR for how this ends.

Need i go on? the list goes on, i havent even touched STA, resists, wisdom, focus effect etc yet.

this quote is taken from one of your posts in another thread in this forum
Quoteand it certainly doesnt hurt to max your AGI regardless what all the neysayer/parse fanatics say.

What you just don't seem to get is that we naysayers/parsers say is that it doesnt hurt to max your AGI as long as you dont sacrifice any other stat.
It is far easier to upgrade your other stats. Really Nunya, i've seen you posting advice to lvl30- player clad in acrylia studded leather to work on his AGI and that's just insane. The guy/girl had room in his gear for 300+ worn AC.

You are entitled to your opinion, but not to make wild claims based on your feelings and then treating your feelings as the one and only truth when there are several reports based on experimental data (i.e. parses) that say the contrary. I might as well say that my feelings tell me that 2+2=5 and all those pocket calculators must be wrong.
Until you are willing to provide the experimental evidence that supports your feelings by yourself, you have no right to tell the parsers that they are wrong and you should refrain from giving people advice based on nothing more then your feelings. The only thing you're accomplishing is confusing the less experienced players that visit these boards and read contradicting posts.
Elder Coprolith III
Trollie ferrul lawd of 65 levels (retired)

Nunyabiz

100 HPs means way more then 100AGI

Thats bullshit and you know it, prove it.

Prove to me that 100AGI could not possibly EVER cause a mob to miss you at least ONCE per fight, or even ONCE per 10 fights if the Mob missed you for 1000Hps.
You cant and you perfectly well know it.

Of course neither can I prove the opposite.
RNG>All

AC means very little once your past about 1200AC for a leather wearing class, getting missed "possibly" for just ONE 500-1000 whack every other fight is easily as good as what 100AC would theoretically mitigate.
which is very little

and i did NOT tell that person to forgo everything else in favor of AGI, thats what you want to hear, in other words ITS IN YOUR HEAD.

I mearly said "it certainly doesnt hurt to max your AGI"
Thats one of the things I worked on and in doing so did'nt sacrafice anything that i know of other than Wis, but as a Beast you either go for Wis or go for everything else at lower lvl, you pretty much have to sacrafice damn near everything to get high Wis not just AGI.

Which to me means dont go out of your way to stay away from it and concentrate solely on AC or Wis.
Weigh the advantages and disadvantages of each.
I certainly would not give up some nice +25AC wrist item just to try and add +5 AGI dont be ridiculous.

But on the flip side if i had a bracer with say 15AC and 50Hps and could get a bracer with 10AC 15AGI & 50+Hps(i would only be giving up 2ac) id go for it faster than you could parse a Orc pawn fight with a lvl 65.


All this squibiling is rather ridiculous as you well know the vast majority of good Beastlord gear is going to have decent AGI on it anyway, you basically cant help but get pretty good AGI as you upgrade.

All im saying is that I BELIEVE AGI has a bit more value to it than most of you here.
you guys just need to get over it and move on, thats simply my opinion.

Even your or whomevers parses basically so called proved that just adding 20 or so AGI from 180 to 200 gave like a 3% improvement in avoiding hits, thats hardly what i call worthless.


What you just don't seem to get is that we naysayers/parsers say is that it doesnt hurt to max your AGI as long as you dont sacrifice any other stat.

This is about what ive been saying for about a year and 1/2.
I figure at some point it would sink in but maybe not.
considering your AGI is going to go up wether you like it or not seems a bit odd to sit here and argue over it.

Argach

Hee hee, funny thread .. reminds me of some explanations of how belief in magic started ages ago. Humans see patterns where there are none, that's how our brains work, and thus any feelings are just that, feelings. If sacrificing a chicken resulted in it raining next day, and if applying agi gear made somebody survive tanking something they should not have been able to tank, we don't think in terms of weather or random number generator. Nah, it's magic!

Chicken = rain, AGI = tanking, and any contradictions are because the ritual was done wrong, gods were angry, healers were lazy or mob was lucky.  :roll:

Nunyabiz

well ive always said RNG>all.

Parses especially the so called "Longer more accurite" ones are pathetically skewed for that reason alone.

Rarely do most fights go for more than a Min or so, hell even major Eplane Gods your rarely up there at his heals whacking away the whole fight non stop. your in and out or healing, buffing, manuvering, etc etc.

So the vast majority of real fights are wildly dependant on the RNG for what you do or dont do, wether you get the shyte beat outa ya or hardly a scratch.

All the parsing the world is really going to tell you very very little about anything other than theoretical DPS between various weapons.

Thats about the only parsing i pay any attention to at all, rest of it is just about meaningless. smoke and mirrors and in the end may prove some theorectical minute percentage that really dont mean squat.

RNG>All

Coprolith

Lol, so now centuries of mathematics are wrong, Nunya? Remember what i said about 2+2=5 and all pocket calculators are wrong

Your last post shows you really haven't got the faintest clue about random behaviour and statistical variance.  

The variance in the average of a random number like hitratio decreases with the square root of the sample size. Its that simple. When you are watching that chat bar to see the lines of hits and misses go by you are watching maybe 10 lines. Your variance: ~30%. When i am parsing my log files im watching 10000 lines. My variance is ~1%. And still you are able to see a few percent decrease in the average better then i can? Can i see your diploma from the Jedi Knight Academy, cuz you must have the senses of a Jedi Knight.

Quote100 HPs means way more then 100AGI

Thats bullshit and you know it, prove it.

Wrong. The need for proof lies in your corner. I don't have to reinvent the wheel. It's already been proven that the effects of AGI are minimal. You are the one saying otherwise, so you are the one that has to provide the proof that says the old parses are out of date.
But hey, im not one pass up this opportunity.
100 AGI decreases your damage taken by 3% at best, as shown by parses. In a one minute fight against a mob doing 50 dps that means a difference of 90 HPs.

Now its your turn. Prove that AGI gives more benefit then that 3%. Until you do, shut up.
Elder Coprolith III
Trollie ferrul lawd of 65 levels (retired)

Nunyabiz

100 AGI decreases your damage taken by 3% at best, as shown by parses. In a one minute fight against a mob doing 50 dps that means a difference of 90 HPs.

LOL i rest my case, thank you for proving my point for me.

Not to mention the 3% your refering to was from approx 20AGI not 100, so ga head bump that up just a tad.
and even rather easy Mobs like the Guardians in HOH if i remember do something like 90+DPS, so sounds to me like 100AGI beats the livin hell outa a measily 100Hps.  8)  especially as you go up agaisnt Mobs doing more than 50DPS which is what btw? a RAT in POI? LOL

also im not "watching the chat lines" as you say, im looking at my HPs and how much i need to be healed during a fight.

Between my wife and I we both have been playing since about 2 months after EQ launched so many many MANY hours i think my IN GAME exp of 100s and 100s of hours beats the snot outa your few 1000 lines.

I dont mull over minutia, all i care about is how many times do i need to be healed. My wife has noticed a difference so have I, so thats all we need.

RNG>ALL  then comes my level, after that the biggest change was AAs such as CA3/LR5 etc and at teh very end is my stats.

The minutia my stats change anything is pretty small that includes Str/Sta/Dex/Agi etc etc, but it all adds up INCLUDING AGI.

AGI is no more useless especially to avoidance based char than any other stat is.
I take all i can get it all adds up.
Currently im pegged except for the +15 Avoidance for the Dumuls Tunic.
Other than that im avoiding damage as much as im ever going to do and it works for me.
305 AGI, CA3, LR5, +8% to dodge, +5% to Block

Coprolith

The last parse on the effect of agility was done less then a year ago on the old beastlord board and showed less then 3% damage reduction. You know this, you've seen it, you entered the discussion as well so dont talk crap about 3% per 20 AGI

How would you know what dps a mob doing Nunya? you dont parse after all. A mob damage output of 50 dps is a good average for the tanking beastlord. So when 100 AGI makes a difference of 90 damage on average, and taking into account the other 2 benefits of pure hps which i mentioned earlier but you seem to have either forgotten or are neglecting to mention on purpose, I'd have to say that HPs >> AGI.
Ahh, but i forget, you dont know what an average is. You think that every BST out there does the same thing as you do, tank tier3+ mobs 100% of the time

How much you need to be healed != effect of agility. AA skills != effect of agility. Hitting lvl 62 and getting the new pet for instance will reduce your damage taken far more then agility or any single AA skill ever will, simply becauses the pet's stuns land more often. Get your causes-and-effects staright. You cannot get any idea about a 3% improvement in avoidance from watching the amount of heals you need, the effect simply isnt big enough to be noticed underneath the statistical scatter. The only way to know your avoidance is to actually count (=parse) the number of times the mob misses on a swing and average over 1000's of swings. Mathematics beats "in-game experience" every time.

If you haven't learned all this by now after 4 years of playing EQ then there's no hope for you. You're making a fool of yourself and the BST community as well.
Really, the BST boards are the only board where this issue is even discussed. When the question of AGI comes up on any other class board the answer is always a resolute 'no, AGI does very little for you'. Even the monk community, who have better avoidance then we will tell you to focus on your other stats first. They know this because they've all parsed the effect of AGI a long time ago. Do it yourself, subscribe to every class board and ask the question. You're alone in this world Nunya.

EQ is not religion. The statements "God exists" or "God created the world" are not verifiable, and so the debate can go on philosophically ad infinitum if your inclined to do so. The effect of AGI *is* verifiable. Mathematically that is, thru parses, not thru your "in-game" experience. To deny the verified effects based on your belief of the contrary, to bash/outright deny all the parses of AGI ever done based on your belief, and then to preach your belief at every opportunity is nothing less then religious fanaticism. Yes, the effect of AGI in the game called EQ is not exactly a world threathening issue like real life fanaticism, but it is fanaticism nevertheless, just tuned down by a few orders of magnitude. You have no facts, are unwilling to obtain them yourself and dismiss the facts obtained by orders.

This is the fact about agility, obtained thru hard work by dozens of people rather then you and your wife's 'in-game experience': The effect of agility does not justify sacrificing other stats
Elder Coprolith III
Trollie ferrul lawd of 65 levels (retired)

Tastian

Am I only one that reads a nunya post and hears/see's it being done by the guy from 12 angry men? "YOU CAN'T PROVE!!" hehe hrmmm wonder which of the 12 angry men that'd make me....

Argach

Ohh yes Tastian, oh yes. Wouldn't realized it myself but now that ye point it out the resemblance is striking.  8)

Nunyabiz

The last parse on the effect of agility was done less then a year ago on the old beastlord board and showed less then 3% damage reduction. You know this, you've seen it, you entered the discussion as well so dont talk crap about 3% per 20 AGI


Yep thats the one im refering to, and the 3% came from 190ish AGI to littl eover 200AGI, his whole parse was to just try and see if breaking the 200 AGI mark was some sort of barrier like breaking the 75AGI point was, not from 100AGI to over 200.

How much you need to be healed != effect of agility. AA skills != effect of agility. Hitting lvl 62 and getting the new pet for instance will reduce your damage taken far more then agility or any single AA skill ever will, simply becauses the pet's stuns land more often. Get your causes-and-effects staright

learn to read, been saying that all along, but as usual like most everyone else you read into my post exactly what YOU want to hear, and just completely skip over what im actually saying LOL.
OH and i cant remember the last time my Pet stunned anything since hardly anything ive fought in months can be stunned by my pets proc, cant stun a Mob over level 61, Im not sure if there are any lvl 61 Mobs in the Eplanes but i dont recall any so ya get yer Causes-and-effects "staright".
I and my wife both noticed a nice little improvement back when i was about lvl 62ish when i bumped my AGI from in teh 150s up to 255, simple as that, no magic bullet, no amazing difference, not all of a sudden tanking 5X better, just simply a nice little improvement, all you guys just need to get over that fact.

read this Slllooowwly.

RNG>ALL then comes my level, after that the biggest change was AAs such as CA3/LR5 etc and at teh very end is my stats.

The minutia my stats change anything is pretty small that includes Str/Sta/Dex/Agi etc etc, but it all adds up INCLUDING AGI.


How would you know what dps a mob doing Nunya? you dont parse after all
actually ive parsed quite a bit, but only DPS between various weapons which is all parses are good for.
Ive seen many Mobs in tier 1&2 doing far more than 50DPS but not on me since I avoid alot of hits, but my wife a lvl 65 druid with just over 6K hps AGI around 180 ive seen a Mob do well over 150+DPS on her before she got CA3/LR5 she gets hammered on occaision.  you do realize i assume that just like your DPS the Mobs DPS that you parse is somewhat governed by how much you dodge/block/reposte/get missed etc...therefore a Mob that might do 50DPS on me might do 150+DPS on a Wizard, so once again your little parse is skewed.


This is the fact about agility, obtained thru hard work by dozens of people rather then you and your wife's 'in-game experience': The effect of agility does not justify sacrificing other stats

Most of it heavily skewed..and not once ever have i said to sacrafice all other stats in order to get just your AGI up.
Just simply to consider it as you do all others, no more no less.
and the parses done here prove that AGI does have a reasonably good effect, so your proving my point for me once again.

None of the stats str/sta/dex/agi have any huge effect over anything.

Coprolith

Should i even bother replying to your twisted logic again? Oh well

QuoteYep thats the one im refering to, and the 3% came from 190ish AGI to littl eover 200AGI, his whole parse was to just try and see if breaking the 200 AGI mark was some sort of barrier like breaking the 75AGI point was, not from 100AGI to over 200.

No it isnt, that parse was totally faulty and you know cuz i burned it to the ground when it was first posted. The only thing that parse proved  was that a sample size of 1000 swings isnt even close enough to eliminate the statistical variance to such a degree that the effect of AGI. That 3% increase was caused by an increase in riposte rate of a factor 2 and an increase in dodge rate of 50%. These skills arent affected by any stat. The one thing that should have gone up, the miss rate, actually went down by 5%. Now if you want to believe that this is the effect of agility go right ahead.
Get it thru your thick head: if a sample size of 1000 swings isnt even enough to eliminate the statistical variance, then you have no chance in **** to 'feel' the change in-game. It literally takes 10000s of swings to eliminate the statistical to such a degree that you can even see the effect of AGI.

The parse i'm referring to was done later, and it was a proper one, testing AGI at values ~100, 150, 200. Samplesizes were several k swings per parse, and even then the best answer you could give was "maybe a few percent per 100 AGI"

Now for the last time: believe whatever want but don't preach your belief until *you* can provide the hard evidence to back that belief up. It's you vs the entire EQ community. Im sick and tired of you insulting all the hard work that has been done, twisting arguments with your reverse logic,
the arrogance of presuming that your 'in-game experience' is worth more then the combined knowledge of the rest of the community, the craziness of saying that parsing avoidance is skewed but your perceptions of the RNG are not.

Mods, please lock this thread, i don't want to hear another word.
Elder Coprolith III
Trollie ferrul lawd of 65 levels (retired)