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Author Topic: Fero changes?  (Read 75236 times)

Offline Tastian

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Fero changes?
« on: October 12, 2005, 09:15:01 pm »
One thing I've learned from my time as corr is that no matter what changes some people won't be happy with the change.  Fero has been an issue on our top 10 list for awhile and I hope to finally see some changes to it.  This, of course, raises the problem of what changes people really want to see.  Some ideas will simply be told no to and others will be tweaked by sony no matter what we want.  However, I don't want to be suggesting stuff, see the changes go live, and then have a 3+ page thread where people complain about the new version.  With that said I'd like to have people tell me what they'd like to see or get out of fero.  How they envision the spell and even some numbers if you want.

Just a few examples to get the discussion going...

-  Make fero a group buff.  Some want this because it'll let them maintain fero in groups easier and buff more with it on raids.  For a solo bst this would hurt efficency some and with the recent SA change we've seen some that have concerns over this.  Also making it a group buff would mean the spell didn't have as much "oommph(sp)" as if it remained single target.

-  Keep it single target and make it an uber buff like it used to be.  This would mean more casting of the buff, but more results and targeted returns.  If fero is group then you have times where a monk and a rogue get it, along with a mag, an enc and 2 druids.  That wastes a lot of the buff and because the spell is balanced around being easier to use, having it on more people, etc then the returns on it aren't as big.  I know some don't want to be a "buff bot(or harsher bad word for a female dog term)".  However, many seem to want it to be truely useful and are willing to work a bit harder to get a bit more gain.

-  +double attack was a common request, but with recent changes that suggestion seems to have lost a lot of weight.  There could be stacking issues, and there are some classes that now appear to be able to cap at 100% double attack even without fero. 

-  End regen has been suggested and might be nice, but it's unclear if sony is ready to head down that road or not.  Also some beastlords won't like the spell as much then as they don't really gain from end regen, but it'd be a huge raid/group thing to be able to give to mnk/war/ber. 

-  Procs seem like a nice idea that have both offensive (aggro) and defensive(lifetaps), dps(dd procs), utility(snare? slow? *shrugs*), benefits.  At one point sony was kinda againist this idea, but obviously a lot has changed and perhaps this could be requested again.

Those are just some of the ideas and I welcome others.  I realize going in that some people will be upset no matter what, but I'm going to do all I can to make sure those people are heard now and atleast have more information available to them as to why the changes happend and what other beastlords have in mind. 

Offline Dreead

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2005, 09:45:09 pm »
Well for one , i would like the resists to scale up properly, that would be nice.

The double attack idea i think is out, with the ranger changes. I may be leaning towards the proc, that would be nice.

What i would also like to see is an increased crit percentage with fero, maybe?

This is a difficult question to answer.

Offline Kenudil

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2005, 09:58:54 pm »
Well before I would have really liked to have seen a DA, but not so sure now.  I think that maybe increase chance to Crit but Salik takes care of that.  And if your looking at a spell that procs damage, well Shamans have that.  It seems to me that what ever they do with Fero, it will duplicate another classes spell.  If I have to Duplicate anothers spell, I would want DA.  At least I think that's what I want...LOL.

One thing is for sure, I would want it to last much LONGER than it does now.
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Offline Tastian

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2005, 10:05:03 pm »
Increasing the duration seems very unlikely given how the buffs function.  Fero and avatar have always been short duration buffs with high mana cost.  I could see the recast maybe going down a bit if it stayed single target, but I don't see the 6.5(ish) minute duration going anywhere.

Stacking would of course be an issue.  Shm/dru already have +damage, rangers now have lots of +da atm and some appear to be capped by this change, so that wouldn't really help at all.  Salik is +crit, but it's a pretty small gain.  Accuracy isn't really on much, combat effects aren't on much.  When people talk +proc damage they mean fero would make you proc more, not that it would have it's own proc.  Although that is a possiblity too, but with panther line for shm I don't really see that. 

I think we need to find something that works for us, helps others to help our raid utility and while not being overpowering is still very much desired.  *shrugs*  Keep the ideas coming.

Offline Keba

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2005, 11:13:13 pm »
I'd be happy with Ferocity staying single target, and Ferocity of Irionu being changed to a group buff or made uber.  Since Irionu is currently such a small improvement, I don't think there would be room for anyone to complain then, they can still use Ferocity if they want.

Offline Iskandar

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2005, 11:58:53 pm »
I'm kinda on the fence on this one... although I think a group buff would be very handy, I can also see a potentially larger gain by having a more powerful single-target buff as well.

As a group buff, it could potentially have the ability to be MGB'd, unless the Devs code it to specifically limit it to single group -- this would be a huge boon on fights where resists are key. It could also shift us to the "DPS groups" many guilds set up (mine puts the Rogues and Zerkers together with a Bard and sometimes a Shaman) or at the very least get us involved with more than "SA plz." As a group buff, a single Beastlord could keep at least two full groups, maybe three (plus themself), Fero'd.

As a single target buff, it could be boosted to something really worth casting tho! Personally, if this is the path it takes, I would like to see the recast cut down so that we can put Fero up on everyone in a full group (or 5 of the 6 at the very least) before it starts to fade on the first player. But as has been noted, a lot of the potential effects that could be added are already taken or otherwise rendered moot :-(  Avoidance comes to mind... or perhaps it could be "overcap attack", tho for the majority of Beastlords it would still just be normal attack... +proc would be very nice too -- kinda makes me wonder what effect keeping it on the warder would have :-D ... another idea that comes to mind would be swapping the STA boost to pure HP, but I imagine that would introduce all manner of stacking issues...

Either way, I'd like to see the resists go up a bit -- it went from 50 to 65 with Savagery to Ferocity, but Ferocity of Irionu stayed at 65.

Hopefully we can work together to whip up a nice proposal for a new Fero that we'll all be happy with :-)
Wildcaller Iskandar Darkpaw --  80 Beastlord, Cohort Chalybeius, Cazic Thule

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Offline tacyttik

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2005, 12:09:24 am »
Double attack no longer seems like a good idea to ask for.

Making it a group buff is looking like a better idea, now that they've reduced the buffs you can get ATK from. However a group buff is gonna cost a lot more mana, which several bsts will be lacking due to recent changes with the Spiritual line. (8k mana to buff a 9 group raid)

Beneficial ideas:
Accuracy - Cap is 150, and only high end people who have focused on accuracy will be maxed.
Combat Effects - Even less people are capped for CE (100).
DoT shielding - Here we start thinking outside the box. Shamans got a damage mod because ATK and stats only go so far. The resist part of Ferocity only goes so far too, so shielding would be the next logical step.
Spell shielding - See DoT shielding.
Strikethrough - Only useful if tanking.
Crit rate - Beneficial for all melees.
Crit dmg mod - Spell version of Veteran's wrath (would add onto VW, of course).

SS/DoTS and crit bonuses are my personal favorite ideas.


Offline Rarrum

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2005, 12:44:20 am »
I like the original intent of the spell... but it just needs implemented using modern effects.  As it is now, the mana cost certainly scales up on it, but pretty much nothing else does.

Look at the three spells as they are now first:
Savagery - lvl 60: (450 mana + peridot)
+50 resists
+100 atk
+25 sta
Ferocity - lvl 65: (600 mana)
+65 resists
+150 atk
+40 sta
Ferocity of Irinou - lvl 70: (750)
+65 resists
+187 atk
+52 sta

In the Savagery days, the sta component MIGHT have been useful in some cases.  By Ferocity+ it's useless.

---
So here's what I'd propose:

Take out the +sta from both Ferocities.

Ferocity:
Add +200 hp

Ferocity of Irinou:
Add +400 hp
Add +7% melee damage (that stacks with discs and such)
Change the +65 resists +75 resists
Add +10% spell shield, +10% DoT shield


Offline Tastian

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2005, 12:54:46 am »
They said no to more resists at one point, but again we'll have to see what changed.  I do like the idea of spell shield type of effects because it just uses modern day effects to simulate the original benefits of the spell. 

The +melee damage I don't think will work given all the stacking I've seen.  I know champ is +10%, lions, etc and most don't interact well with other effects.

What about flurry or crit rate?  Crit is only really on enc haste, but it's also on our disc as well, so that might be something to be careful of.  Flurry isn't an effect via spell that I'm aware of atm, it would raise damage, could be used on MTs, but it also has the side effect of more aggro.  Original fero didn't boost aggro because the +damage came from atk.  *shrugs*  Keep um coming and take note of why it's so hard to change somethings lol.

Offline Grbage

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2005, 01:29:43 am »
Some good ideas out there for what to add for Fero. But, whatever is done it needs to be made a group buff.

Reason is mana, cost recently has been increasing. With Panther, new DoD (cant think of its name) spell, nukes, heals(I'm always put in a group with a shammy/druid for some reason and at times they can struggle to keep the entire group healed in big aoe damage mobs) I run low or out of mana on boss mobs these days.

So, if fero turns out to be a single target buff that is desired the choice is decrease my dps to keep up buffs (especially if it is kept a short duration buff) or tell my guildies I accidently deleted Fero and to bother someone else.
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Offline Jatrulak

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2005, 02:16:34 am »
I think with so many beastlords having trouble with aggro(still a problem?), perhaps a deaggro type proc addition might be useful. Considering they added Roar to our AA list, they must acknowledge the problem, and I don't think Roar really solved many problems, from what I have heard anyway. But the aggro reduction may cause problems for those that use it while tanking, but would also help careless rogues/rangers/monks/etc that may manage to steal aggro while you are tanking.

Also, I really like Keba's idea of making one a group spell, but I think making Ferocity the group spell and Irionu, being slightly better, the single would be more beneficial, so we would have incentive to take the time, mana and effort to cast the single spell instead.

Offline Xennova

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2005, 02:25:21 am »
I personnaly would like +combat effect , flurry hmm well maybe but this seems weird since not a lot of class can do that, maybe +5 or so of base damage from weapon? this would make rogue-zerker really wanting it....

Offline Tastian

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2005, 03:23:32 am »
Mana costs are just on the rise and we have a lot of options at this point.  If it doesn't add more dps to fero someone then you just don't fero them(used to tell pallys no all the time lol).  Just like how you don't always use growl or whatever else.  We definitely have more choices and our mana is very useful atm.  However, making fero group could actually hurt mana spent in a lot of cases.  A solo beastlord without pet affinity would either have to go back to single target or group buff(usually ~3X the single target cost) or maybe hit the pet and himself(still more mana than two single targets).  If it could be put on multiple groups then you'd be spending a ton more mana, so at that point you need to only have it hit your group.  However, what groups are bst often in or would they find themselves in?  There are lots of times where I'd be better off fero'n myself +1 person than a big mana cost group version depending on group make-up.

Just trying to show how complicated this can be.  There are big pro's and con's to group and single target.  I think a person's situation will play a big part in where they stand on the buff.  I mean just looking at the change to SA we see how different some people's opinions are when it comes to spells and use.

Offline Shieara

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2005, 03:52:31 am »
/ponder...keeping in mind I am coming from a low ep progression standpoint.

First off, I would like to say that I think the level 65 ferocity is fine the way it is.   If you're level 65 you still are probably at the point where your resists and attack aren't capped yet.  Not so much on the stamina but honestly, I considered fero part of my lineup to max my stamina for a long time.

Now the level 70 fero.  Firstly, I think the stamina on the buff needs to go *unless* it can be made a stamina overcap.  Preferably one that stacks with the shammy overcap buff.  I'd prefer it to remain single target.  The resists, imo, need to scale up slightly.  We gained what...15 on resists from savagery to ferocity?  Make it something similar to that.    As far as the attack, I have mixed feelings.  I'm not anywhere near max attack yet, so in that respect it is nice to have.  However, I can see other things like +flurry or perhaps +combat effects being more useful to beastlords overall.

/shrug...my opinions as it were

Offline Maylian

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2005, 05:57:45 am »
ROFL.............hadn't even noticed changes to SA, but wondered why it cost me so much mana to SA my raids.

In terms of Fero I love some of the suggestions, I do love Shieara's suggestion of the sta helping towards overcap, especially if it stacked with Wunshi and Fortitude. Personally I could see Fero of I going down the +CE route and would be happy with that. I think if they added flurry you might see other people complain about it in someway even if they can have it cast on them.

But it certainly needs a change, I have been asked for Fero once in 2 months of raiding who still thought I had a fero rotation and wanted to be in it. Was sad to tell him no one asks for it, and quite often click it or don't make room for it. On the upside it means I have more mana to chain Bestial Empathy.

 






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