Author Topic: Fero changes?  (Read 126029 times)

Offline Baracca

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2005, 06:30:30 AM »
While i agree that fero is in need of tweaking, I'm against making it a group buff...The mana cost would be insane and for the duration not worth it...

Accuracy would be a good choice for an additional mod
Some sort of shielding would be  nice addition, or possibly a mixture of accuracy/shielding.

a Proc mod wouldnt be bad...stacking issues could arise if grouped with shammy etc. and possibly gripes from shammies about it (duration issues)

still think the resists should have gone up a little bit

with Stamina being one of the easiest stats to max (via gear/other buffs) it could be dropped completely. I doubt they would make it an overcap that would stack with shammy ....that would be a crazy amount of sta.
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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2005, 09:04:40 AM »
If we talk about group vs single buff we have to compare it to the shaman champion buff. That one costs 1500 mana, increase 10% damage and adds 140 str, dex, agi, duration is the same as ferocity. If we can keep a group ferocity around the 1500 mark it might be worth it, if its way higher its too much to be worth it (probably still not a problem on a 12k manapool).

So just for the manacost reason i tend to "vote" for a single group version for a new Ferocity of I, 75 resists all over, 180 atk, +15% procs and 300 hp, same duration and manacost as the existing spell. Although the original aim was to increase melee damage via the atk route i dont think we can mimic that with a damage mod since there are too many around already. More procs is something we dont have yet and together with the resists it will help all melee classes to either do more damage or gain more aggro. Since most melee classes dont rely as heavily on procs as we used to a bigger mod than the damage mod on champion is something we should aim for, 15 to 20% could be about right. The 300 raw hp are there to replace the stamina part which is absolutely useless since around ele/time progression.

Offline jitathab

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2005, 12:31:43 PM »
If they are going to reinvent it we should get something spectacular that benifits us more than others, so would support being me only.

We dont need a +xx damage component, we already have a spell for that and druids have lion etc.

When ATK hits 2k very little more ATK seems to give much benifit, so why not add 250 ATK instead. I do want to see ATK remain on this spell, otherwise maintaining the 2k current atk will be impossible.

We also do not derive the same benifit from DA as all but bards, besides Rangers now have that covered,  so adding a different component will be more useful.

Crit hits will benifit many, as will procs so how about not adding a combat effect but a surviveablilty affect.
What about shielding or a rune component, ok so maybe not as exciting but it directly benifits our warders.

Maybe make it a pet super buff instead or another joint buff. gives warder like +50 spell and dot shielding and us +10 with 250 atk, and a pet flurry crit increase. 85-100 resists bonus on us too

I would not want another mana intensive group buff that wears off in 7 minutes, we are becoming very very reliant on massive mana pools for maintaining DPS levels, we should not be reduced to a choice of buff or dps.

Summary
Self only (or self and pets only :p)
Atk +250
Dot shield/spell shield +10
Pet dot shield/spell shield +50 (survive the AE's)
Pet flurry
Resists self +85-100
« Last Edit: October 13, 2005, 12:43:32 PM by jitathab »

Offline Kanan

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2005, 02:06:25 PM »
finally weighing in here.. I don't like the idea of it being strictly tied to pet or tied to pet at all.  We are still having too much pet survivability issues... and they seem to jump at the chance to tie something else into the pet, further limiting us. 

The one effect that you do not really see from other buffs atm is the increase in CE (increase in proc rate).  I know warriors would fuggin love this because they are so proc-dependent for solid fast agro.  I'd love it because I'm a lifetap freak & more taps = happy cat.  More & more of the dps you see on people is heavily supplemented by procs. 

I'd like to keep the attack, mebbe bump it up a lil bit.  But add a 5-15% proc rate increase mod onto it to replace the stamina increase, which is totally useless at the level that you use Ferocity of I.  I'd like to see increase in the resists, because, again, I actually use it for that purpose.  And shorten the damn refresh rate.  grrr.. even now having to tell someone 2 mins.. 3 mins is annoying.. I could live with a one min refresh on it.  The duration does not have to increase.

This is what I would prefer.

Now, on the alternate path that I would find acceptable: group version:

Make it comparable cost to champion, but it absolutely must  be /tgb'able, else you have totally defeated the point of the spell & I will un-mem it & never use it again.  An increase in the resists of 15 would actually make it a very useful buff for the times when the raid is needing their resists bumped up, bcs hell.. what except PoV hits all your resists in one shot?  Though, this is probably why they have resisted increasing the amount of resists gained from it. 

Duration does not have to increase, as long as the refresh rate lessens.  Because, again, only being able to do it on 2 or 3 groups unless I'm insanely tight on my recasting would be a major pita.
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Offline jitathab

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2005, 02:32:34 PM »
I agree not tied to having a pet up, but something that benifits pet differently from us to help it survive the AE's. Then perhaps mages would start begging for Fero to keep thier pets up too. General mellee have enough goodies let pet users get pet specific stuff.

Offline Discordant

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2005, 03:42:12 PM »
Mostly already been said but:

1) Make one of our versions a group buff (either Fero or Fero of I)
2) Take the sta component out and replace with something else (I'd love to see a melee accuracy mod placed on it)
3) Increase the atk given (since Hunter/Pred no longer give atk, would be nice to have a boost here)

Offline Dancolen

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2005, 04:34:07 PM »
Ferocity
stamina can stay, though id like a accuracy mod.
Atk bump it 40 pts or so
Resists are fine


Ferocity of I
bump atk a bit
resists bump 10-15
goodbye sta,  hello accuracy or dot shielding/spell shield/etc.... what ever is appropriate given the lore of fero
Possibly make a group spell, since shamans had FA made into a group spell.

OR

Fero stays same~ish.. see above

Fero of I
spell shield/dot shield/shielding mods
chunk of Atk
something else useful to the pet
Pet ONLY

There just needs to be a difference between the two imo..
If they not going to give Fero of I a substaintal upgrade from what it is now... theres no use memming it.
Make one group and one single
Make one like Fero, and one more defensive based with spell shield/dot shield, while still retaining some atk
Make it a uber pet buff, while retaining the original fero

So basically, keep 65 Fero like it is, cept give it more atk to compensate for rangers leaving the atk field.

Make Fero of I, either a group fero with spell shield/dot shield/accuracy(not all but one of these) instead of sta
Make Fero of I a uber pet only buff or self and pet only that gives a good chunk of spell shield/shielding/dot shielding type effects
Make Fero of I a single cast, but give it accuracy and other mods instead of sta and resists or something....

Basically change it a decent bit.. one of those three options..

Otherwise.... /shrug...  we could go 3 expansions and i still wouldnt care if I ever get Fero of I
« Last Edit: October 13, 2005, 04:42:49 PM by Dancolen »

Offline Bengali

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2005, 05:23:50 PM »
My 2 cp for Ferocity of Irionu:

Keep single target, either make the stamina go over cap or add hps to it.  Add a *sizeable* procrate mod and a small (like salik's) crit mod.  Leave resists the same.  Leave mana cost the same.  Can perhaps buff atk slightly to 200, but I don't really care.

I don't particularly care for a group version.  I'd rather it was single target and very impressive.
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Offline Kanan

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2005, 05:33:04 PM »
point brot up by guild when I mentioned it for group version: mgb'able

But that is with just taking existing spell & turning into a group buff, in their heads.

I greatly fear them turning it into a non-tgb'able spell if it becomes a group buff.  I see this because they would view hitting the whole raid for, as it is, 65 to all resists as being too powerful.  Not mentioning the attack or anything else.. just the resists.

So, as I've said.. keep it single targ.

I doubt they'd add as much there as you want Ben at no add'l mana cost.  But then again, adding up to 1/3rd existing cost would be what I'd pay for your final version there.

I only got Fero of I bcs I'd heard of the new slow coming out & wanted to be able to get it asap when it came out.. this of course before they changed the spell order ><

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Offline Discordant

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2005, 05:39:16 PM »
point brot up by guild when I mentioned it for group version: mgb'able

But that is with just taking existing spell & turning into a group buff, in their heads.

I greatly fear them turning it into a non-tgb'able spell if it becomes a group buff.  I see this because they would view hitting the whole raid for, as it is, 65 to all resists as being too powerful.  Not mentioning the attack or anything else.. just the resists.

So, as I've said.. keep it single targ.

I doubt they'd add as much there as you want Ben at no add'l mana cost.  But then again, adding up to 1/3rd existing cost would be what I'd pay for your final version there.

I only got Fero of I bcs I'd heard of the new slow coming out & wanted to be able to get it asap when it came out.. this of course before they changed the spell order ><



Excellent point for those of us clamoring for a group version.  It would also take too much time for them to code it differently to make it not mgbable but tgbable.  If they couldn't do that, then I'd also no to the group version, because I don't want to be stuck with the dps all the time, like shamans that use panther/champ.

Offline Tastian

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2005, 06:39:09 PM »
Having it as a group buff would limit it's use.  Even with single target and some EE you can keep fero on a few people.  Sometimes though your group just doesn't have the people that would really benefit from it.  Having it be group buff does mean that the effect is wasted sometimes and that it's balanced around it often not being wasted hehe.

Also keep mana cost and use in mind.  Having a 1 minute fero would mean you could keep it up on more people which would be a much bigger drain on mana.  I know some bst welcome the extra utility and helpfulness they can bring to others this way, but it's obvious some beastlords would be upset over the hit their personal dps took from this. 

Offline Grbage

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2005, 07:06:09 PM »
It's two things Tast.

First, I don't like killing my own DPS to keep short duration buffs up on people. Long term buffs are livable because we just need to stop occasionaly to refresh them.

Second, if I wanted to play a true buffing class I would of rolled one up.
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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2005, 07:14:47 PM »
Prefer leaving 65 Fero as it is, single target, though wouldn't mind losing the +sta component for something useful.

With double attack now fully taken & covered by rangers, prefer CE or the spell defensive bonuses (+Spell shielding / +Dot shielding) as a unique alternative, or else stacking raw hp.

For FoI, either scale the resists up to +75 or +80 as single target, and give it upgrade to CE / spell % defensive bonuses as above, or completely redesign it as a group buff but still in the same spirit (combo dps / defense against spells buff, that fully stacks with all other spells).


With name of "ferocity" double attack was so obvious and useful ... however, if there was a way to make it add a base double attack (say equivalent to another 2-3 ranks of double attack aa's....) that would be a wonderful alternative that would make it more helpful to beasties than other classes so I wouldn't feel bad about casting it on myself at raids ;)

Offline Tastian

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2005, 08:11:20 PM »
"First, I don't like killing my own DPS to keep short duration buffs up on people. Long term buffs are livable because we just need to stop occasionaly to refresh them."

Like I said different bst have different opinions, and that is a big part of the issue.  I can already see some people getting upset over some of the suggested upgrades to fero because it hurts *their* dps some lol.

Some people just want the biggest overall gain or the best gain for their group/raid/etc.  Fero of irionu assuming ~4 to 1 damage to mana on damage spells would cost a beastlord ~20-25 personal dps in exchange for having the buff up on 3 people.  Of course, most bst I know fero atleast themselves, so that means part of the mana is going to them and the damage gain is as well, so those numbers are actually very skewed especially since they don't factor in SCR or any focus effects.

This is partly why some want the group buff I think.  To keep it easy, hit themselves as well, and basically call it a day.  Like some have shown though a group buff has some basic problems that make it more complicated and harder to tweak. 

"Second, if I wanted to play a true buffing class I would of rolled one up. "

As an honest question, what do you consider a "true" buffing class.  We have:  Haste, regen, mana regen, atk, hp, hp, vision, travel, levi, str, dex, sta, ac, personal ac/agi/etc buff, pet only buffs via haste, pet only proc buff, multiple buffs on our class only clickies including epic1.5/2.0, ornate bp and savagesoul bp, more buffs via AA (hobble, fetter). 

Part of the basis for requesting SCRM and similiar is because beastlords do a ton of buffing and many consider them to be a buffing class because we have more buffs than almost any other class in the game.  I honestly am just curious why you consider bst to not be a buffing class and what classes you think are and for what reasons.  The only classes I can think of that buff or can buff close to what we do are shaman?  clr have a couple of buffs, dru have a few, bards don't really count, rangers actually have quite a few but if bst aren't then I don't see how rangers are.  *shrugs*  Can PM if ya prefer as it's not really on topic here lol, but I am kinda curious.

Offline Sharrien

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2005, 08:37:40 PM »
Probably most do not concider us a "true" buffing class because someone has a better version of every buff we have with very few exceptions.

Personally, I would rather spend me time clawing than casting during a fight, so, I think changes to fero are due, I do not think that those changes should include any shorter duration than it already has.
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