Author Topic: Fero changes?  (Read 73721 times)

Offline Kanan

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2005, 08:58:16 pm »
Just making some further comment from discussion on guild boards:  reason peeps are liking idea of group more is to make us more efficient, ie, get more people fero'd in one fell swoop.

As for myself, I still like keeping it single, just altering its effect to something more useful.

Shammies commented that whining would commence were it to become group.. dunno why, since fero has always been more raw attack than any buff they did.
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Offline Tastian

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2005, 10:07:27 pm »
The thing to keep in mind with it being group though like some mentioned is you have people getting fero'd that don't need it/want it/use it.  In a raid setting maybe you can make a group of all melee for the buff, but usually you'll have something else there.  If they make fero group, but tgb'able then you've got a huge mana expenditure buffing multiple groups and run into the issue of MGB. 

After the reactions some had to SA I want people to be totally clear on what they are asking for lol.  A group buff would be more mana, and in some cases potentially less efficent.  It would also basically guarantee that the buff wasn't nearly as good as if it were single target still.  How that impacts people feelings will of course vary and that's why I'd like to make sure people talk it over now and see where others are at and what they want thus far.

Offline Grbage

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2005, 10:24:32 pm »
Reason I said not a true buffing class is because we get lesser buffs then what is available and none of them can even think about breaking a stat cap. I thought of myself as a kinda buffer until 65 when everyone started maxing out their stats. In today's game about the only buffs I get request for anymore is SA by the casters and Alladnu for the melee after their Wunshi wore off or they died and no shammy is nearby. Haste is not even requested anymore though I still cast it, about half the melee I cast it on just click it off again.

Guess I did not really convey my meaning well enough eariler but I have zero desire (actually hate) to be spending my time casting a short duration buff every 2 minutes to help others achieve their maximum dps. Now if it was a group buff I can toss out every x minutes I would happily do it. I do agree Fero would have to be kept from being MGBable, that would be a bit to powerful IMO.
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Offline Nekokirei

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2005, 11:20:04 pm »
After the reactions some had to SA I want people to be totally clear on what they are asking for lol.  A group buff would be more mana, and in some cases potentially less efficent.  It would also basically guarantee that the buff wasn't nearly as good as if it were single target still.  How that impacts people feelings will of course vary and that's why I'd like to make sure people talk it over now and see where others are at and what they want thus far.

er, i don't really want it as a group buff.  i'm not a raider--have done mainly pick-ups, and no one has asked for it or savagery from me. in the DoN progression, i had the MA ask for it a couple times but only in specific situations.  oddly, he asked for haste more than anything.  :?

i like to throw savagery on my warder, and fero on me, while i've got my vet double xp bonus burning.  making it a group spell--with the incumbent mana cost--would take a tool out of my toolbox for solo'ing.

i know tast, i know, this is a very "specific" sitution, but i figured i might as well throw it out there.  is added endurance regen as part of fero completely off the table, or sorta kinda but if we reach a consensus it might be a factor in putting it back on the table?  if so, i'm all for that. =)
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Offline Tastian

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2005, 12:35:25 am »
I appreciate the input nek and it's good to see people talking about this now.  Fero as a group spell is a big issue in solo situations, especially if you don't have pet affinity.  Even if you do current fero doesn't lend well to pets because of how atk works for them and their hit distribution.  I can even think of a lot of groups I've been in where I fero'd myself, but no one else.  In those cases I'd take a hit going down to normal fero and lose the benefits of the "upgrade", but gain the mana cost.

One of the big things about fero that a lot of people miss is that it can almost be views as a damage over time.  If you are in a situation where you've got big downtime, or a slow group or something it just doesn't pan out too well.  I know through the years I've had various people get upset over my refusing to fero them, but numerically speaking it was just more dps for me to be dropping nukes with the mana than to fero them.  For new fero to be truely worthwhile it'll have to grant a nice bonus. 

The end regen is a very iffy subject because of a lot of unknowns.  I mean some still want it on SA, but it comes down to just how much end regen does sony want, if any at this point.  Think back to early FT where it was very seldom on gear and very low amounts only.  If they kept this model for end regen then a buff like fero would be almost ideal for it because of how limited, mana intense, and controlled it is.  That would definitely increase a bst utility and their viability on raids(especially stacking).  However, as you can see here, there are some people that simply don't want that.  Some would be upset at end regen at all on the buff just becuase they don't actually have a lot of use for it. 

*shrugs*  Keep the discussion going, lots of ideas and I think this thread is really starting to help show some people just how diverse the class really is both in play and in wants.

Offline hokarz

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2005, 01:06:41 am »
the only time I really ever use fero is when I need the resists. Only time I've ever been asked for it, is when someone wanted the resists. I've not been asked for enough to turn down requests, hehe.
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Offline Bengali

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2005, 01:19:39 am »
Part of the reason I suggested no mana cost increase for my version of Fero is because I don't think the current version is worth anywhere near 750 mana.  It's way, way overpriced.  If they upped the mana a tad and made it really badass I wouldn't mind, but none of this making it cost 1500 mana and adding 2% crit or something.
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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2005, 01:55:44 am »
In the past, I would have loved a group fero spell. I was feroing 4 people most of the time because I had nothing better to do with my mana. Now we have multiple tools to use up our mana -- growl, beastial empathy, and a heal big enough to be useful. Other than myself, my use of fero is now very situational. Growl+Beastial Empathy+Nukes chews through mana at a good rate....on longer fights, I have to make choices.

Offline Tastian

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2005, 05:16:30 am »
beng and nus touch on key points.

One of the things we have to keep in mind like I said is that fero is just a tool.  If it's an in-efficent one then there's just no way we'd bother casting it.  For example:

Bestial empathy is ~5 to 1 mana to damage depending on a lot of variables.  That means for fero to be worth casting at say 800 mana (a bit up from 750) it'd have to contribute ~4,000 damage over it's duration.  That means fero'n a single person has to give them a dps boost of ~10dps(again very rough figures).  That's not just 10dps while fighting though it has to be 10dps for the uptime.  If you are in a situation with 50% uptime(waiting on pulls, prep'n, etc) then fero can be a waste of mana.  The buff simply has to give a noticeable and solid boost to dps that not only makes the damage worth it, but also casting the spell worth it as the buff has outside risks associated with it:

-  Dispells
-  Person dies
-  Downtime

All of these things quickly cut into the efficency of the spell verse just casting bestial emp and getting your full return in ~18 seconds. 

I do think going the group buff route is going to be a much bigger mana strain than some foresee, especially after haven seen the responses by some to SA changes.  Also you have the risk of the buff simply not seeing it's full potential.  I mean to fero 3 people you suddenly have to be adding ~30dps to them to justify a group cast of fero.    *shrugs*  Just want to make sure that people don't wind up asking for something that they will almost never cast.  8P

Offline Jatrulak

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2005, 06:40:34 am »
Why not consider making just Fero of Irionu a group spell and leave Ferocity as it is, or the other way around, so people that find the group version more useful can use that, and the ones that don't can use the other. With such a small difference in the 2 as they currently are, it would give beasts reason to use one over the other.
Also if this were to happen, I would think Irionu would be more practical as the group version since it seems like most of the people wanting it are of the raiding level, and the level 70 runes are much easier for them to obtain than casual players.

Offline Tiroon

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2005, 07:48:44 am »
I like the idea of adding a cap breaking component.

Rather than stamina I would love to see the spell geared even more toward offense with an overhaste component.

Having two versions of the buff, one for single one for group, is a good idea but only if the higher level spell is just a stronger version and does not introduce a few very desirable effect.
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Offline Kanan

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2005, 01:58:36 pm »
The mana cost of converting the level 70 Ferocity of I to a group version of the level 65 fero would be something I would foresee the devs doubling. ie, making group level 65 fero be 1500 mana.

VoQ (level 65 chanter crack) is 1300 mana btw for a relativity check.

Now.. 65 to all resists.. what other buffs/effect grants this or similar?

PoV - A in-group-only bard song.

I frankly don't like the idea of group spell, because it will more than likely become useless if it is done this way.

Now.. to look at the things we want from a conversion of the existing Ferocity of I to something useful, in its component parts

1) Attack incr 187
2) incr stam 52
3) incr all resists 65

I think almost all would like to keep #3.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  I don't really understand nor have truly understood the reasoning behind it, but I like it, so meh.

part 2) fuggin useless.  This is the part we are wanting to replace with end regen, proc rate mod, extra proc, whatever, correct?

Part 1) this is what we were wanting to add DA mod too.  Now rangers have it, albeit its gonna get tweaked (Sidebar: if ranger casts sop, then hop, then soh, they all stack, tho dunno if effects all stack.  If devs dun know, prolly should, cuz doubt that's intended), but what are we wanting in its place? increase attack (some post I saw on ranger's glade considers increase of attack to be a 1% increase in dps when you're in the high attack range), or something similar?

I think we need to be clear on what slots/effect components we want changed.  If we are not specific, we get something totally different that what we all really want, & we end up with another complaint-fest like SA change atm.

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Offline Grbage

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2005, 02:15:03 pm »
With reading the SA thread I do believe any change would work best if there Sony would give us single target and group versions so people can use what works best for the situation.
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Offline Kanan

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2005, 02:56:23 pm »
again.. I"m willing to bet if we get a group version, it will be to turn fero of I at level 70 into group level 65 fero, for prolly 1500 or so mana.

Is this what we want?
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Offline Chickennuggets

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Re: Fero changes?
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2005, 03:14:57 pm »
Why couldnt they Change the Fero of I to a group 65 Fero, and add a DoD arc for the uber single Fero?  We have no spell or disc for the lvl 70 arc correct?  Then everybody gets what they want.
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