Fero changes?

[Essant]

See my reply in the other thread about Fero.  The only thing that I would like to add is that if it turns into a buff that people want me to cast on groups every 6 minutes at a cost of 900 mana each, then I'm going to be deleting the spell.

[Tastian]

What about 750 mana every 2 minutes on various people?  A bst with AA can sustain fero on 4 people(counting themselves if they choose to buff themselves with it).  What do some of the people that don't like buffing see as an acceptable effect/time/duration?  Single group fero as was said would likely be in the 2k mana range, but hit the whole group and only need to be re-done every 6-10 mins(depending) barring a death.  Though a death would likely be told to stfu and wait I'm guessing.  8P 

What about as a single target spell?  Do you just keep fero on yourself?  Keep it on yourself + 1?  Keep it on the max you can?  I'm really trying to understand where some people stand on this as obviously different people have different ideas of what too much buffing or work is.  It's obvious some will be upset no mater what changes, but I'd like to try to find changes that work best for the most people.  *shrugs*

[jitathab]

For Fero - I cast it on me only, no one asks for it except the occasional monk who is parsing. I can not maintain it on anyone else in a group setting as I dont have the mana to Fero and DPS. If I am the group slower I dont even Fero myself.
IF the buff is made really good everyone will want and my DPS will suffer greatly.

[tacyttik]

I havent cast Fero in a group situation in a long time, keeping track of a short lived buff for 2-3 hours never was appealing. Besides until recently I felt our own dps never got a very good boost from being fero'd, and mana was better spent nuking or using growl. I also considered our fero "upgrade" to be an insult, it costing a level 70 rune, and 150 more mana for a 37 atk and 12 sta (woo) boost.
In raids its nice to toss on the heavy DPS'ers for boss mobs, since monks and rogues are hitting over 1k dps (and some people on the boards have been saying 1600dps) and adding a few % means much more at that level.

Group fero doesnt sound too bad, since we still have a nearly identical buff at 65. But getting a group version would most likely negate any upgrades to the buff, and bring the cost up around 1800 to 2250, with the only plus being able to buff a whole group in 1 shot, which before we could only achieve by using both feros.

Keeping it single would leave actual upgrades to the buff the only option if they were gonna give Fero of Irionu an upgrade.
I mentioned SS and DoTS earlier, which would be inline with the original intention of the spell, but we'd have to keep the resist buffing, or I'd suspect many bsts would be outraged...afterall, SS and DoTS are unneeded if you actually resist the spell.
The atk could be given an accuracy component to add with the original intention of fero. Things like CE have been suggested, but as Tast has mentioned, procs have become a lower dps boost than melee.
+ Crits would be nice, but most likely it wouldnt stack with our new disc. If it did, it would most likely be the best dps booster we could get, as I've never heard of a cap for crit rates.
Stamina on it (from every post I've read) is useless. People have suggested that it add raw HPs, but I think it'd be unlikely to ever get that sort of effect on Fero.

My hope is it'd end up being:
Single target, 65 resists, +4-5% SS & DoTS, +187atk, +accuracy or crit%

[Dummkopf]

Well, back when fero was still desired i used to keep it on 4 ppl around boss mobs (usually startet my "rotation" on last trash mob). Now i rarely use it all, even on myself.

[hakaaba]

I used to use it (exclusively on raids) on myself whenever i needed the resist boost and any nearby "dps" class when it was up right before a fight.  But since then, the DoD pet spell has replaced it in my raid spell lineup :D

I do NOT want to see a group fero because it will most likely still be pretty useless and cost more.  A single target very high impact buff with the same mana/recast currently on the spell would be nice and i might actually consider meming it and casting it then.

Any of the following would be fine on the buff:

offensive mods
defensive mods
direct hp
stat overcap
overhaste (probably out of the question but still worth listing hehe)
more resists (esp since they stayed the same since 65 :/ )

[tacyttik]

Its been said we arent gonna get more resists on it, overhaste is a bard only (outside clickies) ability and would be useless with an overhaste song, I believe stat overcap is also out of the question (and every melee stat already has a spell for it, so doubt it would stack), and direct HPs would be one of those very unlikely additions. Its not that what you ask for isnt warrented, we deserve a fix with some *actual* DPS boosting mods on it, but asking for items we know we wont get is fruitless.

Tastien, is there anyway to find out of they'd give us a group fero with DPS boosting mods on it, or if we'd have to choose between making fero group, or getting mods on it?

[Bengali]

Some of you people need to learn how to say no when people ask you for a buff.  It's easy for me since I'm naturally ornery, but I'm sure the rest of you could get the hang of it too.

Honestly I'm not too worried about the buff being one that people want me to keep on them all the time.  I'm sure people want shamans to keep panther up on them all the time too, but it just doesn't happen.  No one can make you buff them, especially if you need your mana for something else.  The other day we were fighting some dispelling mob, and a bunch of melees wanted me to cast SA on them so they would have a "junk buff."  Yeah right.  I'm casting a 900 mana junk buff on them.  I flat out told them no, and they got low level vision buffs instead.  Keep in mind that a whole lot of the people requesting your buffs have no idea what it costs you in time or mana to do.

Plus, I remember the days when rogues/monks/melees used to bug me for Fero, and I therefore still know how to tell them, "it's not up" or "can't spare it atm."  I put the buff on as many people I can under the circumstances.  Sometimes it's one, sometimes it's three, sometimes it's zero.  None of that will change if fero is made desirable again. 

But, if fero is tweaked to actually make a difference again, it will mean that your raid is actually better if you have more than one beastlord.  If one beastlord makes a difference to the raid by casting fero on 3 rogues, then three beastlords make a bigger difference by being able to keep it up on 9 melees.  But as it stands now, adding two of just about any other class is more beneficial.

Still, I'm opposed to making it a group spell.  If they did that, I would never cast it unless it doesn't cost a single mana point more than it does now.  It's annoying enough to cast SA on casters and immediately see 3-4 melees click it off.   If I cast some nonsensical 2500 mana buff (and that's not out of the question, btw -- Single target fero costs 1.7 times as much as single target ferine avatar -- so group fero could end up costing 1.7 times as much as group champion, which would put it at 2550 mana) and immediately see a druid, chanter and mage click off their "useless melee buffs" then I will flip out.

[Tastian]

The biggest issue I see here is that some people want fero to be useful so that they have more utility, so that their value in group/raid situations goes up and they possibly gain a bit of power solo'n as well.  On the other side you have some people that are basically afraid of fero being useful because it'd cut into their dps to use it on others and it would be more desired.

At first glace it seems like just tweaking the spell so it's useful works as the first group gets what they want and the second group can just continue to not use it if they so choose.  The fear I have though is the second group later complaining about their personal dps or raid issues when they simply aren't using the tools around them(ie fero).  Personal dps suffers for utility and adding more to others.  A bard gives up dps by not dot'n so they can twist haste/mana/etc.  A shaman does less nuke/dot dps because they are doing champion and panther. 

I guess what I'm still struggling to find is a way to make things work for almost everyone.  What is the break point on buffing for some of you people that don't really like it?  Once a fight?  Once every 5 mins?  Once every 10 mins?  I mean in theory fero is far from an "always on" kinda buff because of its cost and recast and stuff, but if it were seen as more reserved for bigtime fights and just dumped at the end going into the fight then lots would go into big fights down a good 2k(ish) mana.  Thats ~10k or so damage depeneding on the situation and some seem unwilling to give up that much personal dps.

[Beldarr]

From my point of view, Ferocity doesn't need many changes if at all, but FoI certainly is a substandard spell for what it costs. I wouldn't mind the idea of making a 70 spell arc for a group version of Fero, but Ferocity of Irionu needs some serious tuning to be even worth considering using.

Ferocity of Irionu
750 mana
6.5 minute base duration
single target
+187 atk
+65 to resists
+52 to stamina

This is what I think they should do with the spell: ( listing proposed changes only )

900 mana
Self only
+200 atk
replace stamina bonus with +150-250hps
+75 to resists
+50% to double attack
+5% overhaste
+10% Spell Shield/DoT Shield

Personally, I don't care what other dps classes want from this spell...I only care about what's best for beastlords, they can keep regular Ferocity, but make FoI worth getting and using for us.

[Jkal_Shihar]

Some of you people need to learn how to say no when people ask you for a buff.  It's easy for me since I'm naturally ornery, but I'm sure the rest of you could get the hang of it too

I would agree but unfortunately a few of the people i group with are the pullers and will not pull without fero on them. Even if I am conserving mana. There are still some that see a return on this buff. I know your gonna say just disband but they are in game friends. And I'm not one for pissing them off.
All I want to see is the 70 one made a group with something added and take the stamina off. Leave the other one alone. I know the issues of mana ratio to casting. Sucks fizzling on fero 3 times also. I'd rather spend 1k mana to buff a whole group and bite my lip when i watch ppl click it off that dont need it then trying to do a 4 person rotation. Even with an EE aug it lasts 10mins for me which i can handle alot more then the rotation.
My stats arent the greatest (no raid guild, actually guildless again) so I do keep it on me for the resists and atk mod mainly. I still dont have the burst pet either, cant find anyone that I know who wants to do the progression and most on my server when your looking for a group would rather do monster missions or something that involves farming for anguish.
Sorry if it turned a bit rantish but not everyone has the perfect group, max stats, or people they can rely on that knows bout your mana/spell set up.

[mogtoth1]

MY guild are rapidly approaching Anguish so there are a lot of chromatic ae's floating around Apart from the odd rogue asking for fero i rarely get asked for it except in the above situation. Having a buff that adds to all resists and stacks with just about anything is very handy. Having a group version purely for the resist element would make BL's far more valuable to a raid. Yes, a lot of people have the veterens reward but that is once per 24 hours.  I would welcome anything that would make me more valuable in a raid and group situation.

As for using mana, well what do we use our mana for once engaged anyway, throwining a couple of underpowered nukes out. A hasty slow on an add now and again. a spot of low powered underhealing. I dont consider myself hugely well equipped (10.6k hp raid buffed (without leopard)  and a mana pool of 7.4k) but cant remember the last time I was staressed by demands on my mana except when a manadrain of similar ae is flaoting around.

Bring on the gp fero I say,  I would rather have a group buffed with it than have to try to keep singles within a gp buffed. I would also welcome an extension to its duration but PLEASE lets keep the single cast version as well.

[Dummkopf]

Well, different people have different playstyles but i actually run oom on nearly every boss mob without using fero or growl of the panther. Probably has to do with the fact that i love to chain our 68 dod spell. I wouldnt say no to a group fero but the manastrain (we're talking about roughly 2 - 2.5k mana a cast) is there and will of course take its toll in lower dps.

I tend to favor single target fero though, even if it means i have to cast it every few minutes on another player.

[Iskandar]

When this discussion began, I was thinking a group FoI buff wouldn't be too bad... then the mana cost numbers began to be tossed about :-o Having to cast a group buff that costs 2k+ every 6-8 minutes would be an incredible drain on even the best of us, mana-wise. At raids, I'm at around 9.7k... so I'd sacrifice about 20%+ of my mana with each cast. Jkal, your Magelo shows you to have 5561 mana... with buffs, that probably breaks 6k -- which means every 6-8 minutes, you will use roughly 35% of your mana for one buff. Maybe it's just me, but that sounds very.. ouchie! Oh, and Mogtoth... once your guild enters Anguish, you will seriously be wishing you have twice the manapool hehe! Wait until you meet this nice guy named Jelvan.... or his nasty neighbor the Arch Magus.... :wink:

It's looking to me like a single target FoI buff would be the most efficient way to go. Less mana per cast, more efficient in regards to who is buffed, and more powerful simply because it's single target. Yes, it doesn't mesh with the playstyles some of us have... but a playstyle is a lot easier to adapt and change than a manapool is hehe! :-D

[jitathab]

Back in the day when it was kept up on 3-4 people our nukes were 30 sec recast, the pets didnt need healing, we had no dod pet and no panther line and our heals were poor. We had no use for mana on raids, and unless we fero'd we never used it up.

Now when Fero is undeseriable for many we do have a huge man use, our mana use has rocketed over the past year.

Anyway Lets look at some buffs here that have some of the affects of Fero, but not all in one spell, and see how Fero stacks up against the individual components. I am using ranger buff as previously it had ATK, and now has very good combat effects, and acknowledge that may change.

Howl of the predator - Duration 1hour 20 minutes 375 mana, 27% DA (atm) - think of this as the atk version.
Ward of the hunter - Duration  2 hours 30 minutes 450 mana 50% DA, 45 DS AC 49 HP 165 - atk version. 3 mpm
Ferocity - Duration 6.5 minutes mana 600 Atk +150 STa +40 resists +65 = 92 mpm
Irionu - Duration 6.5 minutes mana 750 atk +187 sta +52 resists +65 = 115mpm
Tirbunal - duration 60 minutes PR/DR + 65 500(group) = 8.3 mpm
Protection of seasons - 2 hours 30 minutes 450 mana +72 FR/CR (group) = 3.3mpm
Guard of Druzil - 50 minutes 225 mana +75 MR - (Group) = 4.5 mpm

So Ferocity +65 resists = 92 or 115 mana per minute
All other buffs together = 16.1 mana per minute
Add in the ranger self buff = 3 mana per minute

End result for 1 hours use for others = 1146 mana, Fero is 5520, Iri is 6900

So Fero should last 1 hour be a single target version cost 1145 mana * whatever to give 65 resists and an attack bonus. The attack bonus being DA, ATK, AC HP or similar, or combination.
The whatever multiplier is the hybrid inefficieny casting factor.

Sure maths not perfect, beacuse I have mixed group and single target spells, please check maths and put in format if you wish.

But the point is it is way to mana expensive for the benifit, and a group version could be justified without increasing mana at all.
Alternative suggestion is make fero last 1 hour for around 1200 mana single target.