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Fero changes?

Started by Tastian, October 12, 2005, 09:15:01 PM

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Gxser

I believe the advantages greatly outweigh the negs . Sticking to my guns on this , no matter how short the gun timer is !! lol
G

80 Bst

Luclin

! Greater  than no one as good as any !

Gimp Gear

Kanan

please.. dig through the thread & dismantle my arguments against it.  I feel strongly, but don't feel like repeating myself once again as to why it sucks.
Kez's Magelo 85 "Arch Animist" of Final Empire on Povar

laissez

what if fero had an inate chance to resist spells? instead of being a dps modifer
Elder   Laissez Fairez
75 Beastlord Luclin Server

dainfrol

Quote from: laissez on January 13, 2007, 04:03:09 AM
what if fero had an inate chance to resist spells? instead of being a dps modifer
Hmmm, maybee an ATK modifier like it always has had, but instead of having resist mod on it, add a % chance to completely avoid incoming spells......... I think that would be good.
WildbloodXikahtizuDragonblood - 75 - Beastlord - Luclin (Veeshan)

Khauruk

Quote from: dainfrol on January 13, 2007, 04:19:57 AM
Quote from: laissez on January 13, 2007, 04:03:09 AM
what if fero had an inate chance to resist spells? instead of being a dps modifer
Hmmm, maybee an ATK modifier like it always has had, but instead of having resist mod on it, add a % chance to completely avoid incoming spells......... I think that would be good.

That would entirely change Fero from one of the (supposedy) strongest offensive buffs, to a still lame-o offensive w/ probably lame-o defensive parts.

Other points:
Fero is a single buff.  Strong spells are typically on raids, and going to hit whole groups.  The healers won't need to heal the group any less if only one person avoids a spell.  Result:  No point in casting it unless it's a group spell, or you're stuck healing yourself.  Solution - group spell rune.  It has the advantage of being both group and predictable, both sorely needed in that instance.  Oh wait - let's take that away from Enchanters now?

Let's keep Fero as a purely offensive buff, but let it be worthwhile.
TURNCOAT!!!!!

laissez

was just a thought that came to me when we were killing mad mary-anne and needed max resists and popped fero, so the devs oviously intended it to be some sort of buff like that. But with today's mob aoe resist checks it the resist don't help alot, maybe an upgraded fero would have an overcap accuracy along with a innate chance to resist and incoming spell.
Elder   Laissez Fairez
75 Beastlord Luclin Server

Mewzee

All the melee in my guild, like fero the current way it is. The rogues LOVE to see their attack vaule higher, and frankly I do too for myself and love the resists.

The way I'd like to see Fero is that it should remain the same in the aspect of attack+, and resists+. The change should be that stamina+ be removed completely, and make the buff ADD temporary hps, like 200-300 hps maybe?, also another factor that would be cool is a percentage+ in double attack and or strikethru/accuracy...

All I know is we need to keep the attack and resists, the melee love it, but I would like to see some kind of change. It's just hard to decide and come up with something, since other classes now have so many abilites that we can borrow from. I will say thou I do not agree nor like the idea of resiting incoming spells...it just doesn't make sense to me.



~Mewzee Mew~  Lvl 75 Wildblooded Kitty of RIP ~ Tribunal Server

Khauruk

Quote from: Mewzee on January 31, 2007, 01:38:09 PM
All the melee in my guild, like fero the current way it is. The rogues LOVE to see their attack vaule higher, and frankly I do too for myself and love the resists.

That's frankly, out of ignorance.  Yeah, the number on their UI is pretty I guess, but Fero parses out to match an *unfocused* Bestial Empathy pet when a lvl70 monk (Deathknell level gear, max AAs, overhaste, etc,....) is attacking almost the entire time the buff is on them. 

The effects of attack over 2k are truly miserable, and if Fero's going to keep +attack, the whole attack system/scaling needs to be drastically reworked.

QuoteThe way I'd like to see Fero is that it should remain the same in the aspect of attack+, and resists+. The change should be that stamina+ be removed completely, and make the buff ADD temporary hps, like 200-300 hps maybe?, also another factor that would be cool is a percentage+ in double attack and or strikethru/accuracy...

All I know is we need to keep the attack and resists, the melee love it, but I would like to see some kind of change.

The melee are stupid /shrug.  Not to say that I haven't kept fero on some friends since they asked for it, or were parsing burns, but it's really worthless compared to raw dps tools.

QuoteIt's just hard to decide and come up with something, since other classes now have so many abilites that we can borrow from. I will say thou I do not agree nor like the idea of resiting incoming spells...it just doesn't make sense to me.

Double Attack bonus - worthless for several dps classes, so I'd never want that.  Monks, rangers, and a couple others I think are at 100+% double attack at lvl70.

Strikethrough
- pls no.  Again, monkeys end up at 100% strikethrough from AAs/gear.  Zerkers have innate strikethrough, though I'm not sure how high it is.  I'd rather not have a buff be instantly useless for a class.

Accuracy - that's the one that I think almost everybody can agree on.  Rangers, I think receive the highest accuracy in the game, and end up at app. 75% from AAs/gear.  That's a lot of room for the fero line to grow into.

Defensive side of the buff:

Resists - the resist system is borked right now, and in need of serious repair.  Who knows if Rashere will ever have time to actually do that.  iirc, the changes from TSS beta never made it live due to too many problems.  +65 all resists are kinda gimpy against -1000 resist check AEs.

I'm starting to like the idea of a hefty spell and dot shield %age on it.  Healing gets more strained with every expansion, and every retired cleric.  It's in line w/ the history of the spell (defensive buff against casting), it's a steady factor (vs. say, a %age to proc a spell rune mechanism), and would additionally give a bit of utility to help keep new apps/alts alive through mobs.

Thoughts?
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Urim

Have to agree with Khauruk here. Just because the melee love to see their attack rating higher doesn't mean it's actually doing anything. It's kind of like if the UI showed how much stamina you really had and for every 100 over cap you got 1 hp. Are people going to suddenly want stamina buffs so they can see how high their sta can go ... whoopee I got 2 more hp! (although in that situation the stamina buff lasts for a long time instead of just 8-10min)

Simple fact is that Ferocity needs a complete and total revamp. +atk +sta +resists just isn't cutting it in today's raiding world. i know non-raiders can use it but if memory serves me right, the first in the Fero line only dropped off boss mobs in Luclin (THO if thinking right) when it came out so designed for raiders in mind.

It was obviously intended to increase both dps and the ability to resist spells (hp too because back then nobody was at cap). Currently it does both of these things extremely poorly. Khauruk is on the right line of thought for ways to increase it.

The spell can't be a simple +atk. Instead a % increase in accuracy or a decent proc (although this line of thinking is played out with the shm and enc spells) or maybe a decent overhaste (although the recent finding that delay below a certain amount does nothing might make this idea useless). To be honest, im not sure what could be done as most possibilities were given to other classes, i.e. hitting harder to shm/dru, procs to shm/enc, overhaste to bards. Maybe accuracy is the best way, figure a rogue doing 2k dps with 75% accuracy and buff gives him 5% better accuracy, thats about 130 dps increase. Thats much better than the 10max the spell currently gives.

The resisting spell side is a bit simpler as there are really only 2 ways i can think of to make it actually work. One would be a decent % spell shield and the other would be a decent % to resist spell modifier. I say decent sized for both of these because back in the day having +50 resist across the board was HUGE when resist modifiers were extremely low. Now with resist modifiers so high that some spells are virually unresistable, it makes resists pretty useless. Personally i think i am more inclined to the % to resist spell (as it fits better to original intent with possibility to resist instead of lowering dmg) but either one would work fine.

The ferocity line of spells needs a good long look from Prathun and i hope he does it. As it stands now, i havent cast Ferocity in months. When TBS came out i never even wasted the 3k(?) plat to buy rk 1 of Ruthless Ferocity and turned down every Rk 2 copy that was offered to me. The spell is simply not worth casting in its current form.
Maelin Starpyre
[80 Arch Animist] Urim the Library Guardian (Iksar) <Crimson Tempest>

'Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity'

Humlaine

Quote from: Khauruk on January 31, 2007, 04:08:33 PM

Double Attack bonus - worthless for several dps classes, so I'd never want that.  Monks, rangers, and a couple others I think are at 100+% double attack at lvl70.

Strikethrough
- pls no.  Again, monkeys end up at 100% strikethrough from AAs/gear.  Zerkers have innate strikethrough, though I'm not sure how high it is.  I'd rather not have a buff be instantly useless for a class.

Accuracy - that's the one that I think almost everybody can agree on.  Rangers, I think receive the highest accuracy in the game, and end up at app. 75% from AAs/gear.  That's a lot of room for the fero line to grow into.

Defensive side of the buff:

Resists - the resist system is borked right now, and in need of serious repair.  Who knows if Rashere will ever have time to actually do that.  iirc, the changes from TSS beta never made it live due to too many problems.  +65 all resists are kinda gimpy against -1000 resist check AEs.

I'm starting to like the idea of a hefty spell and dot shield %age on it.  Healing gets more strained with every expansion, and every retired cleric.  It's in line w/ the history of the spell (defensive buff against casting), it's a steady factor (vs. say, a %age to proc a spell rune mechanism), and would additionally give a bit of utility to help keep new apps/alts alive through mobs.

Thoughts?

I would agree.....on most of this.....fero indeed doesnt play a big factor in todays raids like it did back when PoP was the main expansion, but with that being said you still get a 10+ dps gain from having fero as aposed to not having it.

NEXT!

I feel accuracy isnt good for the long run less they make it a overcap buff as most higher end bsts are capped in this area and it would prove useless for us

Combat Effects mod - I feel this would be the best suited for our class,  would be unique and as long as SoE makes it a over cap mod or stackable with caped worn CE I think this would be a worth buff in the long run.

Also changing this to a group version, ya I have mixed feelings on it also but for the raid bst it does prove to be a useful tool as we have lost alot of our utility that we used to have on raids

Changing the resists to a % resist mod like our pet spell breakersguard I think would rock making it that much better and basicly updating it to todays raid standards as like Urim said resist are nuts in todays standards compared to when fero was originally released

We are part shaman but even shaman have seen their upgrades to their avatar line...lets just hope SoE doesnt turn a blind eye to us again like they have been

Humlaine

This isnt all about fero but I still think its a valid point

Thanks disco as he was the original poster of this on TSS beta, most of this stuff still holds true and has yet to have anything done about it




Most of this was originaly posted by disco a while back on TSS beta but....since SoE is slacking I feel it needs to be reposted I like it I know some of these are a little out-dated and some are in developement but I would like to see others implimented


1. Our warders are still lacking a heavy DPS upgrade that makes them as viable as other pet classes. The pet focus from DoDH was a very essential upgrade to the survivability of our pets, but unfortunately, the dps did not scale as well as we would have liked. Oroshar was a simple piecemeal upgrade that was supposed to have been reviewed after PoR launched, but with Rytan leaving, it never got the attention it deserved.

2. Much like Magicians, Bestial Empathy has become a nice addition to our DPS. I think that adding additional levels of this spell, that would allow the Beastlord to call multiple werewolves, would be a step in the right direction of possibly shifting -beastlords' grumbles about our warder's viability as simple DPS.

3. Beastlords, since Luclin, have become increasingly a DPS class rather than the original utility class that we were supposed to have been. There was talk of utility based procs for our warders during PoR's beta, and it's been an idea that's been hammered to death on the Beastlord forums. Adding different types of procs that affect the group (Via the same mechanics as necro/sk taps), would be a welcome addition that might add desirability for our class in not only single group situations but raid situations. Adding procs that tap mana back to the group, increase a certain combat skill for a small duration – the suggestions here are endless, but would require significant balancing for them no to be too overpowering.

4. Group Fero – this ability seems to have the beastlord community split. There are those of us that want it, and others that don't see the need. Frankly, with ATK being where it is on high-end raiding, its usefulness simply doesn't compound to what it was originally intended for. There are numerous suggestions for a new spell line that might fix this, and with the way TSS is handling spell progression, it might work very well. Fero itself needs an overhaul, to perhaps rid its self of the +STA and +ATK, to give actual combat effects, such as +crit, +accuracy or something such as that. Making the spell a group spell, or perhaps even an aura, would increase the use of the spell and bring it more in line with what is needed to make it a viable option.

5. DoTs – a lot of us disliked the change to Scorpion Venom, especially in tanking situations, because it destroyed a principle snap agro ability of beastlords. We are left spamming Incapacitate now. That was one of the only DoTs that I think beastlords really ever used, because they simply are horribly balanced and not worth a spell slot. I would be nice to see in TSS a DoT that was actually worth loading, instead of having three nukes up.

6. SA – We've been constantly told that adding one mana regen to Spiritual Ascendance would be unbalancing, yet we see clicky effects that do 10 mana regen on their own. The SA line has needed a major upgrade, not a piecemeal upgrade, for a long time now. Beastlords have suggested that endurance regen be added to it, to make it a viable spell for all classes, but nothing was ever heard back. Perhaps the last few spell levels of the new SA spell (I am assuming there will be one) could have an endurance regen component.

7.With the way the game has changed since Paragon was a much desired raid/group item, there must be some larger changes to this skill besides simple stat increases. This, even moreso than Fero/SA were the defining ability of beastlords on raids. It needs more help.

I would suggest something unique, that would provide a nice, but non-overpowering boost, while giving bsts some raid desirability they've been losing.

Something akin to -

Add 10% Chance to fire Gift of Mana

in addition to the base mana/hp regen of it. Another one is the % regen vs pure numbers mentioned above, but I think we all can understand how that may not be possible (balance concerns).

Theres many things that would work, but IMO the base boost to Aura of Spirit will still end up lacking and not address the issues I mentioned above. Thus, this (or something similar) as an extra is needed.

8. SV - This spell line has guide us through and been a very benficial buff to us. There are those of us who love this buff and think its very useful and a nice trade off from the paladin line and ranger line of hp buffs. I am suggesting adding a mod to this making it in essense like howl of the pred like rangers have but with hp / atk / and another mod, Combat affects, a stackable cleave mod, accuraccy mod something making this buff worth using again. Thus making it a worthwhile spell to buff raids and dps classes with adding to our utility aspect

-That about sums up what I would like to see changed in beastlords this time around. I feel we have lost our jazz and nitch in raids like we used to have. We are a rock solid class in groups, but in raids we lack the need to be there anymore. Any questions or comments please post.

zezashetan

This is my opinion but I think fero is fine the way it is. I have commented on the fact that we need a group Fero buff. but I don't believe we need to change anthing from the past. Maybe in the future though they can have a group version of the one we get at 73?. Because if you make them all Group, then you have to worry about stacking. I for one am happy when I have GoD, Seasons, and Shammy PR/DR resist and then stack Fero on top of it. you are adding 143 fr, 143 cr, 146 pr, 146 dr, 146 mr by stacking those. and the only ones not using those resist are very high end guilds.


I am Zezashetan Warder, because I will not survive without my pet and in return my pet does not survive without me. We are one! Therefore I will share his name, and he will share mine!

                                               Zezashetan Warder of Zek

Spiritclaw

That may be the case, but nobody, and I mean nobody, who is using this buff for resists is using the +sta.  They need to do something about that.
Spiritclaw Sadiablo
80 Beastlord
AB Server

Urim

Quote from: HumlaineI feel accuracy isnt good for the long run less they make it a overcap buff as most higher end bsts are capped in this area and it would prove useless for us

I'm not sure about Khauruk, the person you are quoting, but when i think about adding accuracy to the buff im not talking about the mod2 +15 accuracy that are on many items and augs. I'm thinking about something along the lines of "Slot 2: Increased chance to hit (5%)" or however they code those things. So that if you are normally hitting with a 70% accuracy then with this buff you'll be bumped up to 75% or thereabouts. It pretty much scales itself. Those that do higher dps (people in the raiding scene) will see a bigger benefit from this than those who do lower dps. Plus, i think the highest accuracy % ive seen from parses has been around the 75-80% so there is still lots of room to grow with this.

For those that are still saying fero is fine the way it is. Please go back, read all the posts and look at the parses that have been done. At best it adds 10ish dps for 750-1000 mana depending on the spell. That is just ridiculous. I wasn't parsing back during the Luclin to PoP days when having the fero line meant something but i have to believe it was adding more than 1% dps increase back then when people were nowhere near the atk cap. If it was adding more than 1% during that time then fero has essentially worsened. It's unacceptable and nobody should be happy about it.
Maelin Starpyre
[80 Arch Animist] Urim the Library Guardian (Iksar) <Crimson Tempest>

'Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity'

Humlaine

ahh now I understand urim....I through you ment that just wasnt completely sure