Fero changes?

[Mewzee]

Khauruk, thanks for your info and post, because I never really understood why some of the suggestions I gave would be turned down. I don't have a clue about the numbers, and parsing side of spells too much, so your explantion helps me understand better why it could be seen that way that the buff would not turn out so great with strikethrough, double attack ect.

I also will admit I didn't understand why everyone was posting that they don't use Fero anymore on raids. I didn't understand what is the info that has been provided to make everyone think its useless at raids. I love using Fero for the resists boost alone for myself because I am not at max AA yet or even close to it, so can someone please explain to me in detail or point me to a post where I can read more about this info so I can understand the problem better? Someone said that the attack value over 2k is useless? Are you sure about that? and if so why is that, what seems to be the issue there that is causing this? Coding problems?

Well back to the topic at hand - If accuracy seems to be the deal thou, then I will definately go with that! In fact I remember a conversation I had with an SK guildie of mine, and they were interested in my worn accuracy and they considered it very important. So if a tank class thinks that is a important stat then I think the melee will agree as well and I think thats the direction we should head into. I also strongly agree with combat effects.

The dot shielding+spell shielding on Fero? Well...chanters have spell shielding..so I think maybe we should have Dot shielding alone? I think that would be good - that way we don't take something away from enchanters, unless we make both effects be allowed to go overcap maybe?

The way I'm looking at it right now...Fero that gives attack+, resists+, and accuracy and combat effects overcap and that stacks with worn effects would be kick ass with any needed adjustments to fix the attack values issue and better resists issue.

[Khauruk]

Attack over 2k:

You've probably heard people mention AC softcaps, and overcap returns.  Attack has the same mechanic (doesn't vary by class though, unlike AC.  Attack and AC are interchangeable in some ways, if you look at Fenier's parses about attack debuffing on the druidsgrove, but that's another matter!) as AC.  Attack is an amazing thing up to 2,000.  Over 2,000, each additional point has far less effect than a point gained below 2,000.  This is a linear function - so, (made up numbers follow), say each point of attack below 2k was 5 dps, and that 2,001st point was 1.5dps.  Each point of attack from that point is 1.5dps (The real affects are much much more miniscule than this).

Wycca (monk of <Triality>) did parses on the effects of different levels of attack, different attack buffs, etc,.... during the TSS beta, and helped the community really nail down it's value in relation to dps.  For the ferocity tested (lvl70 Fero iirc), he had to be attacking from the rear the for most of the duration of the buff (w/ extended duration AAs, focus) to match the damage per mana value of an *unfocused!* Bestial Empathy pet (I believe this was w/o any pet AAs to boot).  This was with max accuracy, overhaste, the best monk weapons in the game at the time, etc, etc, etc,....

So, if it wasn't enough to outdo our base unresistable damage on a high dps class (one w/ the most attacks/minute in the game, so huge effect for a monkey), it surely won't stack up near a focused, AAed Bestial Empathy pet.

This of course isn't taking into account when you're forced to not attack, if somebody dies, etc, etc, etc,....

So yeah...attack over 2k, while not useless, isn't something to sacrifice anything to get.  It's been parsed for ages now, and it's just lame.

Coding problem?  Possibly a problem w/ EQ growing beyond the original vision of the devs.  Probably well understood by the developers (though not admitted to afaik), but it'd be a huge pain in teh ass to fix/alter, so they're just sitting there whistling while we bitch, since they don't have the time to fix it.

Resists on Fero:
I don't know what/if you are raiding (haven't looked at magelo), but the resist system is broken right now.  The devs know this, and spent a lot of time in TSS beta trying to fix it, to no success.  The resist system dates back to original, old world EQ, and has never scaled well at all.

Resists are extremely high - and to counter this, look at the negative resist checks on the AEs/DoTs that raid bosses are casting.  -450, -500, -600, -600 chromatic, -1000 - all are very common.  +65 doesn't stack up, when the spells are designed to be rarely, if ever, resisted!

[Khauruk]

+ Combat Effects on Ferocity

I'm against this, and I think most would be when I explain my reasoning.

Look at the high end dps class magelos.  Do you see procs augs in their weapons?  No - for any melee class Tacvi+ (or rogues Ikky3(?)+), they're using raw damage augs.  Or at least they ought to be trying to.  Demiplane+, I rarely see anything different.  Heck, damage augs are now single groupable for many!  Proc augs are much more agro, and much less dps.

+Combat Effects aren't even king for Beastlords anymore since lvl71, and the advent of innate double attack.  The Steampowered Cogblaster is just lackluster once you hit lvl71, when compared to other attainable weapons for a raider at that level.

Warriors and knights (in sword/board) are the only knowledgeable raiders trying for proc augs, since it helps their agro and/or survivability (Hi, Rune 3 proc on Jade of the Ether!).  And tank agro is becoming much less proc-dependent with swing agro foci, etc,... demi+.

So - + overcap CE on Fero is a worthless idea since it's against the "point" of the spell as a dps buff. 

Accuracy on Ferocity:

Yeah...I meant overcap accuracy.  Sorry for not specifying.

[zezashetan]

Resists on Fero:
I don't know what/if you are raiding (haven't looked at magelo), but the resist system is broken right now.  The devs know this, and spent a lot of time in TSS beta trying to fix it, to no success.  The resist system dates back to original, old world EQ, and has never scaled well at all.

Resists are extremely high - and to counter this, look at the negative resist checks on the AEs/DoTs that raid bosses are casting.  -450, -500, -600, -600 chromatic, -1000 - all are very common.  +65 doesn't stack up, when the spells are designed to be rarely, if ever, resisted!

I am on a pvp server where resist are life and death.

[Khauruk]

Ahh yes...Zek.  The redheaded stepchildren of EQ.

[laissez]

another thought, Shield ac is very different from other kinds of ac b/c it acts like ac from under the softcap thus making a shield exponenially more effective than adding 100 ac.  Turning fero into some sort of "sheild like" atk buff were it actually added dps like you were under the cap would make it very useful, also making the sta part of the spell add over the cap like they did with fort wouldn't be too over powering.  Tho if this was played out bst would constantly be torn on who too buff a tank or a dps class.  But in eaither case its better than not useing it at all.

[Khauruk]

another thought, Shield ac is very different from other kinds of ac b/c it acts like ac from under the softcap thus making a shield exponenially more effective than adding 100 ac.  Turning fero into some sort of "sheild like" atk buff were it actually added dps like you were under the cap would make it very useful, also making the sta part of the spell add over the cap like they did with fort wouldn't be too over powering.  Tho if this was played out bst would constantly be torn on who too buff a tank or a dps class.  But in eaither case its better than not useing it at all.

Not too bad an idea, though I don't think there's any current mechanic in the game to raise atk softcap, so probably just as difficult to write in for the code team.

As far as STA overcap - it's not worth enough HPs for a tank class to bother w/ the buff slot.  Those are too precious already.  I'd just get rid of the STA and either put a straight HP portion on the buff, or (better idea, imo), give it up entirely, and focus on the spell defensive and melee offensive portions of the buff.

[zezashetan]

another thought, Shield ac is very different from other kinds of ac b/c it acts like ac from under the softcap thus making a shield exponenially more effective than adding 100 ac.  Turning fero into some sort of "sheild like" atk buff were it actually added dps like you were under the cap would make it very useful, also making the sta part of the spell add over the cap like they did with fort wouldn't be too over powering.  Tho if this was played out bst would constantly be torn on who too buff a tank or a dps class.  But in eaither case its better than not useing it at all.

Not too bad an idea, though I don't think there's any current mechanic in the game to raise atk softcap, so probably just as difficult to write in for the code team.

As far as STA overcap - it's not worth enough HPs for a tank class to bother w/ the buff slot.  Those are too precious already.  I'd just get rid of the STA and either put a straight HP portion on the buff, or (better idea, imo), give it up entirely, and focus on the spell defensive and melee offensive portions of the buff.

What buffs do a max stat warrior need that would take 20 buff slots?

[Khauruk]

Symbol
Druid Skin
Cleric AC
Vie
Brell's
Wunshi
Might
Fort
Sense
Panther
Champion
Ranger AC
Spell Rune
Resists - Talisman, fire, cold, magic, Fire ds
Haste
Minimum 2 clickies
2 slots for HoTs - one cast, one AE
Some use illusion pots rather than shrinks

And that's 24 slots (some situational) all w/o thinking about it.

[Shieara]

Don't forget Divine Intervention in some cases.

Well, our MT on raids has it on him during all boss fights.

[Mewzee]

Symbol
Druid Skin
Cleric AC
Vie
Brell's
Wunshi
Might
Fort
Sense
Ranger AC
Spell Rune
Haste
DI ----- most definately
Minimum 2 clickies
2 slots for HoTs - one cast, one AE -----AE HoTs are now in bard slot so that doesn't take a buff slot, what does take a buff slot is a group HoT or single cast from shammys thou



Panther -----most warriors wont have this
Champion ----- nor this - they wont be in group with a shammy most likely more like with clerics and droods
Resists - TOT - only if the situation calls for disease/poison AEs other wise they wont waste the slot.
fire&cold = Seasons from druids in one buff not two
magic - another one if the situation calls for it unless they got low resists - not too sure /shrug
Fire ds ---most wont have a fire ds anymore they'll just use a ds clicky or druid ds maybe /shrug
Some use illusion pots rather than shrinks ---newp if they're smart they will shrink most of our warriors never wear illusions during raid time

[Mewzee]

Here is something I've been told and I wanted to know what you guys think.

I've been told in tells by knights (pally & sk), warriors, and even other melee, when they're asking me for Fero on raids, that the reason they want it is because "it helps them proc more".

Now with the info we have on the spell - it doesn't give +combat effects, just higher attack, so does fero in fact due to higher attack rating give you higher chances of procing DDs on weapons or buffs (such as proc clickys, sks, pallys, ranger ect) Or is that hogwash? =P

[Humlaine]

its hogwash.....its a pure dps boost nothing else....it adds nothing special but more atk and the other crap

[Urim]

Tell those people in your guild to learn how to read spell info. Ferocity in NO WAY adds anything to ability to proc.

[recoil silverclaws]

Ok so i have a question for you folks.

I'f you had the option between adding one of the two things to our current fero witch would you rather have

1) 15% over haste - dose not stack with bard over haste but would be good to have on dps that dosent have a bard in there group

2) 15% damage mod - would not stack with champ but would be good to have on dps with out a shamy

I't was a question i was asked resently from a source that chats to dev's and helps with a lot of the spells that get ether changed or put into the game. Some feed back would be welcome as to what i said is just my opinion and i would like to get a few more opinions of my fellow beast.

Post away !