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If not buffs, then what?

Started by Tastian, October 18, 2005, 05:07:09 PM

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hakaaba

thats an interesting idea.  I don't think an exp penalty would be warranted though.  Effective level would not affect the mob's hit numbers or hp, just allow it to on average hit a little less hard/often and on average be hit a little harder/more often.  I'd imagine this would be a couple times more effective than a standard cripple.  But i can definatly see a use for this type of ability on raids, where a stacking debuff contribution would be amazing.

Arch Animist of Bertox (Saryrn (Mithaniel Marr))

Spiritclaw

The problem with that would be that the devs would then have to create a lower version for every mob out there.  In some cases, that wouldn't be an issue, but wit named and/or specific targets they would have to create a table like they do with pets and pet focus.  What damage do they give, what damage would they take, how are resists set.  I like it, but I see way to many dev hours being obligated to creating such a spell/AA
Spiritclaw Sadiablo
80 Beastlord
AB Server

bham

Im not sure exactly how the code would work.

I was thinking the formula that determines wether you resist a mob's spells and wether it resists yours would simply take into account that the mobs level was now lower and you would have a better chance of getting a good result.

As for melee, the mobs HP, Damage bonus and Damage interval would stay the same. But becuase it was lower level, it would hit the tank for max slightly less often, and everyone would hit it for maximum sliightly more often. Wether the formula for these already takes into account relative level, I just dont know. If the formula doesnt, then it may be a case of debuffing the mobs offense and defense skills by 15 to achieve the same result.. do mobs even have offense and defense skills?? I assume so.

Either way I dont think a whole new mob would have to be coded for the effect to work...
Bham - Cleric - Mage - Wizard - Tentrix
Bertox

Spiritclaw

The developers have to create a data file for each pet that works with each pet focus.  This is the current problem with MoD and the 62/64 pets (they were never created).  The files that support each pet tell max damage, resists, levels, everything.  Now, to delevel a named (read unique creature), they would have to create a file for each level that it could be and fill in the data for each level (resists, hits, avoidance, etc).  With non-named, it probably would be as much of an issue, but still some, after all a wyvern could be level 44-48 (not positive on that), so to delevel a 48 wouldn't be an issue, but they would still have to create a file for 43, 42, 41.  My thoughts on it, and I'll admit I could be wrong.
Spiritclaw Sadiablo
80 Beastlord
AB Server

Kanan

bham's latter suggestion, re: lessening of attack/defense probably could simply enough solve that issue.

No, they would not be willing to increase the size of the creature db by at least 2 (one for base levels, one for debuffed for us). 
Kez's Magelo 85 "Arch Animist" of Final Empire on Povar

Spiritclaw

Then you are talking about an atk debuff of some kind other than slow and/or a resist debuff of some kind, both of which fall under shammy/druid/ench realm
Spiritclaw Sadiablo
80 Beastlord
AB Server

Soriab

Well lets see here, I am a full time Raid Beastlord. My pet is on every raid every boss. I almost never loose him. I make sure I have him up for MGB's I put him on hold so he doesn't run around and cause havoc when the AE's go off "IE: All the dam time". My pet survives almost everything up to a point. Razorthorn is about the only zone that I put him away and only bring him out bosses.

Beastlords have 1 problem before we start getting more DPS. We can't dump aggro like Monks, Rogues, Rangers, Wizards, Enchanters, (Dont know about Zerkers). Roar has got me more aggro than I enjoy playing with. If we get more DPS we need something to help us not end up tanking trash. I am 15.6K Raid buffed and thats not helping when I am getting quadded for 2K+. While I would like to see us in a higher DPS role I can't honestly say we are able to do it effectively due to aggro management.

My guild uses Aura of Spirits on raids so our beastlords save MGB's when its appropriate so we are ready for the AE's, I get asked all the time for Fero by Monks, Rouges, Beserkers, Rangers. Depending on the fight I could have 1 to 3 ferocity spells loaded just cause I get put into a DPS group for the sole purpose of fero on them. I can keep Fero going on 9~12 people depending on how hard I am working on it.

So its a bit of a toss up on what we are doing as to what role we play. Are we Utility? Yes.. Are we DPS? Yes..

There are drawbacks on both sides of the fence though on what you do and how you do it. I would like to see something done with the Roar line though so we can up our DPS with out going splat.

Skraach

Speaking from a more middle of the road raiding experience, a frustration for our guild is having all the healers (cleric, druid, shaman) keeping melee alive in Tacvi, leaving less optimal classes to cure AE counters and spot heal the fingerwagglers.  The beastlord was designed as a hybrid of the shaman, and as such has heals, buffs, and cures similar to shamans.  If you advocate better healing, the priest classes will scream bloody murder and demand higher heals as well.  It would be nice, but I'd rather fight than heal.  However, I wouldn't mind beastlords being the kings of cures, especially poison and disease.  I can cure all kinds of counters off my pet with a single pet heal, but I can't cure crap off myself, that just doesn't make sense.  Give beastlords either the best cure, or just below the best cure for poison and disease, something that is in keeping with our shaman side of our origins.  Say we mastered the lore of the snake, and uncovered the secret to resisting its venom, for instance.

Soriab

Not going to happen, and Like hell we cant heal. I have kept my group alive many times on Vish and other encounters.

Khauruk

Quote from: Skraach on January 16, 2007, 05:22:10 PM
I can cure all kinds of counters off my pet with a single pet heal, but I can't cure crap off myself, that just doesn't make sense.

Makes sense to me...we're the veterinarians of EQ :)
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Spiritclaw

We lost the title of hybrid cure kings with TSS (at least between rangers and beasts, not sure about pallies).  Rangers got a multi cure that included poison/disease/curse counters, maybe not large (haven't done research), but a few casts and they can cure a curse, whereas we are still stuck with our old individual poison/disease cures without any curse cures.
Spiritclaw Sadiablo
80 Beastlord
AB Server

Skraach

Quote from: Soriab on January 16, 2007, 06:32:53 PM
Not going to happen, and Like hell we cant heal. I have kept my group alive many times on Vish and other encounters.

Never said we can't heal, but you are missing the point.  No one is going to recruit beastlords to heal for a raid.  Wouldn't recruit them for a superior cure either, but cures in addition to the rest we have to offer does provide some appeal.  And I see no reason why it won't or shouldn't happen.  No one's claimed to be the masters of curing that I am aware of, so whose to say we can't ask for that title and the spells to go with it?  The question seems to be what would give us a defined role on a raid, being the king of cures would certainly be a defined role for those encounters.

Humlaine

 Most of this was originaly posted by disco a while back on TSS beta but....since SoE is slacking I feel it needs to be reposted I like it I know some of these are a little out-dated and some are in developement but I would like to see others implimented


1. Our warders are still lacking a heavy DPS upgrade that makes them as viable as other pet classes. The pet focus from DoDH was a very essential upgrade to the survivability of our pets, but unfortunately, the dps did not scale as well as we would have liked. Oroshar was a simple piecemeal upgrade that was supposed to have been reviewed after PoR launched, but with Rytan leaving, it never got the attention it deserved.

2. Much like Magicians, Bestial Empathy has become a nice addition to our DPS. I think that adding additional levels of this spell, that would allow the Beastlord to call multiple werewolves, would be a step in the right direction of possibly shifting -beastlords' grumbles about our warder's viability as simple DPS.

3. Beastlords, since Luclin, have become increasingly a DPS class rather than the original utility class that we were supposed to have been. There was talk of utility based procs for our warders during PoR's beta, and it's been an idea that's been hammered to death on the Beastlord forums. Adding different types of procs that affect the group (Via the same mechanics as necro/sk taps), would be a welcome addition that might add desirability for our class in not only single group situations but raid situations. Adding procs that tap mana back to the group, increase a certain combat skill for a small duration – the suggestions here are endless, but would require significant balancing for them no to be too overpowering.

4. Group Fero – this ability seems to have the beastlord community split. There are those of us that want it, and others that don't see the need. Frankly, with ATK being where it is on high-end raiding, its usefulness simply doesn't compound to what it was originally intended for. There are numerous suggestions for a new spell line that might fix this, and with the way TSS is handling spell progression, it might work very well. Fero itself needs an overhaul, to perhaps rid its self of the +STA and +ATK, to give actual combat effects, such as +crit, +accuracy or something such as that. Making the spell a group spell, or perhaps even an aura, would increase the use of the spell and bring it more in line with what is needed to make it a viable option.

5. DoTs – a lot of us disliked the change to Scorpion Venom, especially in tanking situations, because it destroyed a principle snap agro ability of beastlords. We are left spamming Incapacitate now. That was one of the only DoTs that I think beastlords really ever used, because they simply are horribly balanced and not worth a spell slot. I would be nice to see in TSS a DoT that was actually worth loading, instead of having three nukes up.

6. SA – We've been constantly told that adding one mana regen to Spiritual Ascendance would be unbalancing, yet we see clicky effects that do 10 mana regen on their own. The SA line has needed a major upgrade, not a piecemeal upgrade, for a long time now. Beastlords have suggested that endurance regen be added to it, to make it a viable spell for all classes, but nothing was ever heard back. Perhaps the last few spell levels of the new SA spell (I am assuming there will be one) could have an endurance regen component.

7.With the way the game has changed since Paragon was a much desired raid/group item, there must be some larger changes to this skill besides simple stat increases. This, even moreso than Fero/SA were the defining ability of beastlords on raids. It needs more help.

I would suggest something unique, that would provide a nice, but non-overpowering boost, while giving bsts some raid desirability they've been losing.

Something akin to -

Add 10% Chance to fire Gift of Mana

in addition to the base mana/hp regen of it. Another one is the % regen vs pure numbers mentioned above, but I think we all can understand how that may not be possible (balance concerns).

Theres many things that would work, but IMO the base boost to Aura of Spirit will still end up lacking and not address the issues I mentioned above. Thus, this (or something similar) as an extra is needed.

8. SV - This spell line has guide us through and been a very benficial buff to us. There are those of us who love this buff and think its very useful and a nice trade off from the paladin line and ranger line of hp buffs. I am suggesting adding a mod to this making it in essense like howl of the pred like rangers have but with hp / atk / and another mod, Combat affects, a stackable cleave mod, accuraccy mod something making this buff worth using again. Thus making it a worthwhile spell to buff raids and dps classes with adding to our utility aspect

-That about sums up what I would like to see changed in beastlords this time around. I feel we have lost our jazz and nitch in raids like we used to have. We are a rock solid class in groups, but in raids we lack the need to be there anymore. Any questions or comments please post.

jitathab

I dont see any of our buff lines having a significant future, our "focus" and SV line combines add so little HP that it equates to 1/3rd of a round of damage from trash mobs. They are there as comfort factors for casters and only cast when a paladin or shaman are not available.
SE has had diminishing returns up until TSS, but then very few BSTS will get the RK III version for some time, so that has yet again missed the marked.

Haste is beaten by a bottle, as is invisibility.

If we are a buffing class then so are necro's

Blarp

Perosnly i Dont think we would get a cure. dont get me wrong i would like one. but thats a step going the wrong way asking for it we mine as well try but i dont see it going any where.

Haste is long broken for us its what a lvl 60 spell? can buy potuion in PoK better then it for 39pp a pop  i sued to buy them by the stack untill i got sick of spening all that pp on then and just Farmed my self an ornate tunic for the same spell we have. atm our haste is not worth meming. not for me any ways i much rather Keep BE or a nuke up    i like the endru buff thoughts.  would think being one witht he wilds we  should know about this type of thing  as beastlrods. i have been reading and i like alot of the input many of you are coming up with itas just a matter of Doing the derv's work for them i think. plane to scale it dont overe power it and then just might even think aboult looking some of it over.

and yes i think Fero needs a Long over duo overhaul. the sta and suck we even use helll the only part of it wanted is the atk.. i personly liek the resists i find it a bit harder to get my resists maxed out without a bard. but the again who does not.

i think we should have 2 GRUOp copys of the spelll

Fero 1 Mass atk 400-500 ish and a fero/cleave/ somethign effect.

Fero 2 Single cast Self only low mana (400-500) not to much lower then ours now but then again it's a self buff make it kinda liek yalp but bsty style atk  add ina  dub atk % like 6-8% on it and reists


i think this would help keep fero on us a nice one for soloing  there is a grate dea of things we are all most likey thinking aboult ot have we need tog et them out and try to take a vote or poll find out what we as a  gruop liek the most and sumit it =-) thats my 2 copper. Blarp out