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If not buffs, then what?

Started by Tastian, October 18, 2005, 05:07:09 PM

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didymusx

SA wont be improved, PoS won't be improved, so I had 2 ideas that would make us a little more wanted on raids, that doesn't
seem like it would be very difficult for them to do. They both involve changing feros, leave them as single target buffs, as to not
blow the mana cost out of proportion.  One the things I noticed is that casters never get any kind of benefit from fero (with exception
to resists of course), but they never ask for it, warrs never want it.  so make it benefit more than jsut melees, or change one of them,
to be caster benefit.  one of then, say Fero (melee fero, if you wanna call it that)  could could raise atk and resists like it does, but
also possibly small +ce and a small endurance boost (this would make it useful for everyone, including warriors)  Make the other
one, currently FoI (this just a thought, no flaming pls), make the other one caster beneficial, like bonus to nuke damage, dot damage,
healing, etc... also, make them stack! (this just me wanting bonuses to both since itemization is lacking)

I think this could possibly make us a little more wanted on raids, and since these would still be the same short duration thing,
you would need more bsts on raids than 1!  This would also benefit non-raiders jsut as well!

Didymusx Astelonius - 70 Sentinel - Drinal
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=757368

Shieara

Hehe,

You say tanks never want fero, but there was a time when my raiding group depended on fero for tanks as a resist buff for some encounters.  One that I remember specifically is Rydda'Dar.  Because of her fear spell, we would fero tanks.   There's several other fights we used it for but....yeah anyways.

I like to buff so I don't have a huge contribution to the origonal topic.  Just wanted to mention that.

Tastian

Yeah the fero changes are actually the exact opposite of this topic since this was for those that are againist buffs/fero changes/etc.  hehe 8P

The resists are useful at times and I've fero'd my share of clerics over the years and originally used savagery on MT for various mobs back in luclin. 

Definitely would like to see some changes to fero, but at the sametime there are some bst that don't like more options.  Some would be upset over fero being more useful/desired by casters because they'd get more requests or have more people they couldn't keep the buffs up on. 

The end regen is very much a balance point though.  Devs have said they didn't want end regen, then kinda unsure, etc.  First they have to decide how much end regen they want, and then how to put it into the game.  It's possible some buffs will see it, other buffs might be added, it could be only an item thing, etc.  I do think it'd be a nice thing for bst to get and with SA/fero there are a couple ways it could be added that cover a broad spectrum in terms of balance.

Grbage

Aye, SOE is a bit afraid of adding endurance regen because of the possiblities of overpowering a couple of classes. But, they need to do something as disc are using more and more endurance with no way of refreshing it other then 33ish/tick with aa. It really becomes a problem after rezzing. Nothing like waiting on the MT to regain enough endurance to continue after dying.

Hmm, give us a spell that lets us twitch melee with our endurance? Kind of like necros do with mana. Make it useable between fights but not during to help keep it from overpowering a class but has the effect of speeding up the downtime.
Grbage Heep
85 Beast of Torv

Chickennuggets

They also said that SA was 10 and not higher because they had the same concerns over mana regen... now we have vendor bought potions.  Not sure of the name... but there is one that stacks with KEI, so I assume stacks with everything.
Chickennugets  http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1226640
Lvl 70 Beastlord
Steel and Honor
Saryn server

Kanan

Interesting.. the only vendor sold in mass quantities that i know about for mana regen is the clair X potion, and that = kei's mana regen, but is overwritten by kei+.

Greater concentration is pretty easy to make, at I think 96pp/dose (think that's what I got charged for cost by guild shammy), incr ft by approx 3 or 6/tick (don't recall exactly, and don't feel like looking up atm, but it's overwritten by Mind Wrack.

If the clair pots are stacking, that needs to be /bugged, bcs that's definally not the point of em.. Point of em is to allow someone to not have to run back to PoK bcs their KEI wore off or have to be held up for a half hr while they /ooc for crack in pok.

If you know of one that really does stack & is intended to do so, pls lemme know.  I'd love to get my paws on that one.
Kez's Magelo 85 "Arch Animist" of Final Empire on Povar

Chickennuggets

I may have gotten the vendor, and shammy versions confused (been a dog day at work today).  It is true that the one I used that stacks with KEI... I was not grouped with a necro, so my staement may have been off.  But the point remains that in any given situation you can add mana regen via potion, except when you have all the different mana regens available at once.
Chickennugets  http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1226640
Lvl 70 Beastlord
Steel and Honor
Saryn server

Kanan

kk.. sorta where I was thinking.. and I do resent that they've made haste in a bottle better than our clicky/cast haste (i type clicky, cuz I've not memm'd that spell in almost 2 yrs now I'm happy to say /hugs ornate tunic that's never leaving me ;p). 

In general, many would prefer KEI etc over potions, if only bcs of duration.  If I have the opportunity to get it, I vastly prefer clairvoyance over kei, cuz the mana regen is sufficiently different that i can get into a better rhythm with is then with kei, running too lom too early with kei/bottled crack.

I'm one that doesn't mind buffing and frankly am at a loss for what else we could do to replace the buffing ability we have.  I would prefer an increase in the effectiveness of said buffing.  If naught else, that would permit those of us who enjoy buffing to do that function better.  I knew a shammy who hated buffing.. biggest complainer I ever met in regards to that.  There are bsts who feel the same way about any buffing that we may be required to do.  I don't think that fits the vast majority of us, else I think we woulda chosen a class that better fit our preferred playstyle, and the class would have evolved in a different manner than it has over the years of its life.

So to sum up, bump up our buffing ability.  People will be unhappy either way, but the majority will be content with some increase in effectiveness as our add'l added utility to a raid to compensate for our dps loss over a pure dps, one trick pony class.

Kez's Magelo 85 "Arch Animist" of Final Empire on Povar

Pakratz

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but here's an idea that would add to our utility and totally fit our lore.  Pet Guard ability.  This would allow you to assign your warder to guard someone (chanter/cleric, etc).  All of that that person's aggro is continuously transfered to warder as long as warder is alive, so if they pull heal or mezz aggro, the mob(s) will attack warder instead.   The chanter/cleric will always be at 0 aggro, so when warder gets 1-rounded (which he will), the mob will move on to the next on its aggro list, sparing the chanter/cleric.  BL pops out another warder and assigns it to guard chanter/cleric again, etc.   Warder would physically follow the chanter/cleric thus taking out his dps, but that would be the tradeoff.  This would be very useful on some events (worthless on others) and would make it very desirable to have multiple BL on certain events.  Note that chanter/cleric can still be hit by AEs.

In group situation this could be used to quick save your cleric who's drawn aggro.  /pet guard xxx then /pet attack would be an instant offtank.  A quick thinking BL would be welcome addition to groups then.


Tastian

That's actually similiar to an idea I brought up when discussing how pet utility had fallen off.  Expansion of the pet shielding ability and allowing them a target to shield if they are nearby and split damage with them is a nice idea imo.  Lots of different possible tweaks, but yeah more utility through the warder is a nice idea.

Chickennuggets

Utility through our warder is something I believe in... check some other thread in here.  For the sake of this thread anything added would have to be either an AA, or an innate command.  I personally like my idea of multiple Familiar'esce Warders that give benifits to self and group... but I am a biased opinion.
Chickennugets  http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1226640
Lvl 70 Beastlord
Steel and Honor
Saryn server

Tastian

I like the "familiaresqe" or even "wardesqe" ideas too.  However, one of the biggest issues we've had as beastlords over the years isn't ideas, but rather having them believe we should get the gain they would give.  Much like how some want triple attack or innate double attack or more pet dps, it all leads to more damage and if the devs don't want that then any idea leading to that end will be shot down.  Although I like the ideas of buffs via warder or whatever, if the devs don't see we need more utility then it simply won't happen. 

Also we have to keep in mind drawbacks to "style".  I think our warders currently are a great example of that as their are a lot of situations where the warder is less than optimal and very few where they are a bonus.  Even though the familiaresqe idea sounds nice, if it has some major drawbacks that we might not forsee then most would probably rather just have a new group buff or something along those lines.

hakaaba

What i dont see is how they can be saying we dont need utility.  Compare us to say a mage.  Beastlord melee/spells dps is less dps than the mage.  Bst pet has always been inferior to mage pet.  And you could even make the argument that mages have more utility than us.  (mod rods and CoTH compared to what we offer, especially beyond the first sa bot (err i mean beastlord))

I'm mainly talking raid utility here so slow is not a factor, nor are all of our buffs except SA. But it has been increasingly applying to group utility as well for a long time.

How can they sincerely say we're in the correct role when we're in no role at all?

We used to have things that actually noticably contributed to a raid.  Paragon was 20% of a pure caster's mana pool for the entire raid not to mention a massive HoT for the time.  Ferocity actually noticably impacted someones dps to the point where it was even feasable to cast it on ourselves.   We need a new something.  It has been suggested to upgrade perfection (that was declined) or ferocity (theres a 10 page thread).  But whether they do that or something else new, we sure as heck need something.

Ive been the only active beastlord in my whole guild for years and while beastlords actually made the list of recruitable classes, a second one was a whopping medium priority.  And thats just sad as an indicator for the state of our class.

Arch Animist of Bertox (Saryrn (Mithaniel Marr))

Taiglin

Random utility thought.....I want to be able to strip a mob's DS.

Very tired so going to bed.

<a href="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=841014">Taiglin[/url] 70 Iksar Beastlord
Nameless - <a href="http://www.foolsrepublic.org">Fools Republic[/url]

Chickennuggets

Clerics can strip a DS, or at least negate it with Mark of Karn (?).  The function of the Warder familiars would be similar to the servants... just with different abilities, and at an AA cost.  They already gave everybody these things, and they are blind (or choosing to be) if they don't see we need something new.  We don't stand out in any particular way with abilities or dps.  Aside from SA, and paragon/perfection (not what it used to be)... what is our role?  Back up slower, offtank (as long as defensive lasts), 10 mana/hp a tick, low on the dps chain.  We rock at mid pop, anything beyond that the "true classes" for a particular ability are required, or at least biasly preferred.  Bards, who are very similar to us get group and AE damage mod songs, debuffs, etc (much more powerful than anything we get)... if we are going to function like a bard then give us those abilities.  We got a big dps upgrade with the past expansion... but still lack because of the 3 way division of power that even the devs don't understand as well as Tast.  I just think that one of four things is going to/ needs to happen. 1: we get some new ability, and are made group/raid wanted again.   B) They decide whether we are going to be more like one of our "parent classes" and either dps more like a monk, or cast more like a shammy.  iii- we get treated like a bard jack-of-all trades (which is more or less where we are now), and get more abilities similar to a bard that can mod our groups more than we do... see 1.  Four... nothing changes and we continue on these threads to no avail.   
WARNING: No coffee at work atm... little synicle, take with a grain of salt.
Chickennugets  http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=1226640
Lvl 70 Beastlord
Steel and Honor
Saryn server