Pulling using the pet....

Zorthaz · January 12, 2004, 02:08:54 PM

I have seen mention of this tactic used, but I have never succesfully done it. I never really worried about it until recently when I was invited into a LDON group as "the puller". I kept getting "The other beastlord was pulling singles, don't you have pet hold?" Yes, I have pet hold. As soon as my pet got aggro, the mob would aggro all the mobs in assist range. The best I could do most of the time was 2 pulls, but usually got 3-4 or even 5. How is it done?
Thanks for any information,
Zorthaz

Bulge · January 12, 2004, 02:23:14 PM

DO you mean with "aggro" that your pet already had hit the mob once? The trick seems to be to use the pet's "taunt" proc before he actually gets to the mob and starts beating it. As soon as you sick your pet on a mob there is a chance he taunts onnhis way to the mob. You can sometimes see this when a mob comes running to you the moment you do /pet attack, while the pet isn't even there yet.

Now all you do is /pet attack and immediately /pet back off(or in your case /pet hold which is more reliable), so it won't actually get to the mob and beat it (and get aggro of all around it), in the hope it procs a Taunt in between commands and lures the mob to you. I have also heard that the Taunt has a shorter Range now, which makes it more difficult to use this technique, since now you have to let the pet come real close to the target, with a chance of it hitting the mob already.

If you knew all this already then discard this post. :)

Cheers!

TheOriginalGronker · January 12, 2004, 02:39:49 PM

Quote from: ZorthazI have seen mention of this tactic used, but I have never succesfully done it. I never really worried about it until recently when I was invited into a LDON group as "the puller". I kept getting "The other beastlord was pulling singles, don't you have pet hold?" Yes, I have pet hold. As soon as my pet got aggro, the mob would aggro all the mobs in assist range. The best I could do most of the time was 2 pulls, but usually got 3-4 or even 5. How is it done?
Thanks for any information,
Zorthaz

Well lose those whiners first off. If your group can't handle anything other than singles in a regular basis, you really want another group unless you like doing adventures in the 90-120 minute overtime with CRs. LDoN isn't about pulling singles ... those people really gotta get used to it.

Secondly, every dungeon is different. I've single pulled 90%+ of the fights in a Ruj dungeon more than once. Guk .. well you can pacify all you want and you are still getting multiples every room or two unless you got someone that can target thru walls. Same with Takish, other dungeons you have a decent chance of getting an easily-pulled dungeon but dont count on it.

Third, you are right - pet is going to aggro everything in 'assist' aggro range regardless of if its taunts from range and you pull it back, or if it actually makes contact. I hate pet pulling when there are tons of mobs around ... I've seen poor Snuggles get wasted before he finished spinning around from 3 or 4 mobs HTing and whacking at him. I don't care how gimp your equipment is, a BST at any level can tank LDoN "normal" mobs - at least one, and more if you have better equipment and/or someone else healing you. When you pull and get multiples, you are tanking at least one of them. If you dont have enough tanks, your CC should be dealing with it - and CC can be anything from a bard mezzing a couple, a necro mezzing/rooting/tanking a couple, chanter mezzing a few, druids/wizzies/shammies/clerics rooting/kiting/whatever - there are so many ways to handle multiples its sick.

But people are going to tell you all sorts of stories about how you can pet-pull aggro free by such-and-such, or by casting 'cancel magic' instead of slow, or ducking and spinning around, followed by a /rude in the general direction of the mobs. Don't believe them - everything works the same way (except the latter, which won't do anything).

And thats what you have to believe, and explain to the cowering masses that pee their pants when they see more than one mob. If its a melee thats complaining about multiples, tell them to offtank. If its a caster complaining, tell them to 'CC' it or tank it. If they compare you to the 'other BST' that was magically pulling singles, explain to them that its rare that you can consistantly pull singles and that you all should have no problem handling more than one mob at a time in camp - probably its a full group of 6 since they whine that way (the groups that will wait for half an hour to fill that last spot). And play in a way that makes them believe it.

Mallahki · January 12, 2004, 02:47:16 PM

I know how to do the pull technique that you are talkin about, but i do not think it is 100% legal. I would suggest that you just try to proximity agro mobs if you are the puller, and deal with multiple pulls. Bsts are not really meant to be pullers, and I dont wanna be responsible for spreading Sploit info. Just leave it at that, and know that you are pullin the correct way for a bst.

Bulge · January 12, 2004, 02:56:03 PM

Lol, Gronk. :) Glad I used words like "it seems" and "I heard" in my post, and did not preach it as the truth. ;)

Anyway, I take it the "taunt" pull trick as I describe it isn't working?

Cheers!

TheOriginalGronker · January 12, 2004, 03:19:40 PM

Quote from: BulgeAnyway, I take it the "taunt" pull trick as I describe it isn't working?

Its never worked "as claimed" for me .. I have always felt like it yields the same results as if I proximity aggro (which, for whatever reason, seems a little different than if you zap the mob with a spell for pulling - maybe this is a good idea for mages though). I've heard people preach about it, and I've also laughed my butt off when another BST (who shall remain nameless) in LDoN was going to 'teach me' how much better it was and wiped his pet and himself out when 5 mobs came at him (which I had claimed would). Do you want call that working? And to get the pet to taunt within range of the mob without it actually attacking it can be an exercise in patience.

After trying so many different things out, I've almost completely stopped pet pulling as I can achieve similar/better results with proximity aggro (and then at least I'm getting hit not my poor pet) or just straight LoS zap'em pulling. The *only* time I think I bother with pet pulling is when the target is not in LoS and we've pacified a few mobs around for whatever reason - rare for sure - and even then I'm not 'taunt' pulling - its a pet contact pull. In fact I can't remember the last time I've done even that .. maybe 40 adventures ago?

Gimrol · January 12, 2004, 03:34:28 PM

Quote from: ZorthazI have seen mention of this tactic used, but I have never succesfully done it. I never really worried about it until recently when I was invited into a LDON group as "the puller". I kept getting "The other beastlord was pulling singles, don't you have pet hold?" Yes, I have pet hold.

How is it done?

I was in an LDON group with a Necromancer pulling the other day. I had always heard about the pet pulling techniquie, but I had never seen it used before this mission.

I don't have complete information about how to do this, but here is what I noticed and infer:
1. The necromancer was level 65 and had pet hold.
2. The necromancer was using a skeleton pet. I believe that this means it was a Luclin (spell level 59 or less) pet, as all the high end pets have the spectre graphic. I believe this also means that the pet does not have any type of fancy proc, it's just a melee type.
3. As far as I can tell, here is how it works:
-----Park pet out of attack/assist/aggro range.
-----Send pet in until it hits the mob in question.
-----As soon as possible after the pet's first hit, /pet hold the pet.

What *should* happen is that your pet walks back to where you parked it, and the mob beats on your pet until somebody peels it off. For most of the mission we got single pulls. I realize that a necromancer has FD and other neat tricks that he could use, but I didn't notice lots of delay between pulls that I normally associate with FD pulling.

I've not tried this yet as I don't have pet hold, but it seems straightforward enough. From what I understand, pulling using /pet hold is a semi-secret secret in the shadowknight community also. If anybody has any high-level SK friends, it may be worth asking them about it.

Gimrol

Aneya · January 12, 2004, 03:50:56 PM

My SK friend claims that it works for SK pets because the pet is green to the mob being pulled. The other mobs won't assist in killing green pets. We could test this by summoning a lower lvl pet but then our pet would be totaly useless for DPS and pet mezzing.

Mallahki · January 12, 2004, 03:53:48 PM

Thank you, Gimrol. You said it so I didnt have to, hehe. They key is to use a lower level pet. Mobs will assist what you are tryin to pull if you send your lvl 64 spell pet on the mob. This is what almost every beastlord tries to do, when an SK tells him to just send his pet in, and then /pet hold as soon as it engages. That is exactly all that SK's have to do, since their best pet is such a low lvl anyways. The other key is that your pet MUST survive. If your pet dies, the agro will transfer to you, and all of the mobs will then assist, and you get a nice lil train. Now, what I want to know is, is this a exploit? If the general definition of exploit, is using somethin in game that it wasnt designed to do, then it just may be. I think that is why it is not really spoken about, because if attention is called to it, then they will fix it, if it is an exploit. I dont use this pull method, simply because the adventure groups I go in can easily handle 5 or more regular mobs with no crowd control np, so single pullin is a waste of time.

Lorudce · January 12, 2004, 04:03:04 PM

I like to have mobs lined up for the slaughter. Pull a few and CC them and then kill them one at a time.

Bard/Enchanter can mez. They can be rooted. They can be offtanked. It always seems to work in a good group which doesn't panic.

I have also found when I'm not the puller, if 2 come, I can cast my slow on the add and it comes straight to me so I or my warder can offtank.

Sounds like a panicy group to me.

Mhordel · January 12, 2004, 04:08:05 PM

I do LDONs constantly, and I will share some tips I have learned. I am always the puller, I am 65th level, and I also fill the role of MA on 99% of our LDONs. I am ranked currently 41st overall on the Server.

Pulling:
Always try to build a group with a cleric or chanter at least the same level as you. Make a Hotkey that is simply: "/t PacifyingPlayerName Assist and Pacify %T!" Make sure they are not using something like Wake of Tranquility. Now lets say your in Guk, or Ruj, where mobs are always hiding behind stuff. You go to a door, and hit F9. Four (five?) taps will give you a long view centered on your character. Spin the view around so your viewpoint is from the room your pulling. Pacify the one or two at the Doorway that were waiting to obliterate you. Step in, partition the pull with another pac (or two) and bring out your mob. Rinse-repeat. If you do this well, it takes less and less pacc'ing as the room is split and you distance mobs from assist radius.

Pet's Role (with a chanter in group):
I pull multiples, which is something you do often with a chanter, it is more time efficient and time is important in LDONs. I get aggro from 2+ mobs and pause in front of the group with my pet (pet is NOT /hold), as the mobs come to meet me one has been slowed already. They collide with you and your pet starts to attack. At this point your pet has just as much or more aggro on the other mobs that came to assist the slowed mob. You back off to the group with the one slowed mob and call assist. Your pet holds the other mob(s) for the chanter to mesmerize. (Things that help with this tactic is Mend Companion and Hastened Mending, this gives you LoH for your pet nearly every 8mins, and your Defensive AA's.)

Scalewulf · January 12, 2004, 04:10:34 PM

/agree with one of the above posters.

If you're group can't handle more than one mob, finish the adv and find another group.

My advice it to make the group yourself. The best group I've had to date has been 2 65 bst (both with paragon), 65 necro, 65 mage, 65 wizzy and a 65 cleric. Make sure the Necro has group mana and lifetap spells. Of course this is referring to a normal type adv.

If you're doing hard, it has to start with Tank, Healer, CC and slower (BST :wink: )

Lorudce · January 12, 2004, 04:17:39 PM

Good point! With the pet offtanking, when the mez gets on, it is very rare that the pet breaks mez. In fact, I don't think mine ever has that I recall. If we are offtanking, you have to time things and stop attacking or you break mez.

Rippykin · January 12, 2004, 05:43:11 PM

There was a time... think it was pre-LDON, where pets were not working well with mez. Since that time however pets have been rocksolid on *not* breaking mez, even when using procing weapon and proc buffs. So pets make the best offtanks for a mezzing class. A beastlord that keeps their attack turned off, and uses their pet and slows dramatically helps any enchanter trying to get a hold of a bad pull.

If you think about it, 3 fully slowed (65%) mobs are equal to 1 unslowed mob melee damage-wise. (3 wizard mobs could be ugly though). So, slow itself is a form of crowd control when you consider that.

TheOriginalGronker · January 12, 2004, 07:00:16 PM

Quote from: MhordelI do LDONs constantly, and I will share some tips I have learned. I am always the puller, I am 65th level, and I also fill the role of MA on 99% of our LDONs. I am ranked currently 41st overall on the Server.

Pulling:
...
Pacify the one or two at the Doorway that were waiting to obliterate you. Step in, partition the pull with another pac (or two) and bring out your mob. Rinse-repeat.

Ouch. All that pacifying? I don't think I've run into one room under "normal" where you need more than 1 pacify to split the room into bite-sized chunks of 2-3. Thankfully, the recent pacify fix makes pacifying 4x (egads) for a single pull necessarily speedy - I've certainly had the pleasure on going with groups that feel the need to pacify every mob in sight. Play around more with how stuff aggros on pulls and pacify selectively when needed rather than always.

Imo, if you are pacifying more than 2 mobs on a pull, you might want to rethink your pulling strategy. If you are pacifying at all on more than half your pulls, ditto. Again, if your group can't handle 2 or 3 mobs in camp on every pull you are setting yourself up for a CR or a really, really long adventure. No matter how awesome you are at pulling, there is always a chance you get a bonus mob or two so it saves on wipes when your group has some plan to handle a bunch of mobs rather than expect one at a time and go into panic when more than one mob shows up.