Author Topic: OT: PoR what found so far  (Read 16879 times)

Offline Tastian

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2006, 01:01:30 am »
Yes it does, but you are further proving other people's points.  Do you realize some guilds run 5+ rogues?  2+ zerkers?  Getting "top 10" dps is more a function of the guild composition than anything.  I was once in a guild that had 1 rogue, no wizards and 2 monks.  Getting "top 5" wasn't even hard by any means.  However, in the overall game the dps is still behind and if you are relegated to "doing dps" to earn your spot then you are at a severe disadvantage later on as a beastlord.  The question is usually, "why do bst focus on dps so much" and the answer is often "what else do we have?".  Slow they have capped and mitigated, they don't want resist debuffs going higher, they don't want resists going higher.  Shm break stat caps, mana regen has been passed around and limited, etc.  If they gave beastlords(especially the second and potentially third on a raid) more to do then you wouldn't see so much talk of dps.  Until that happens though many of the higher end beastlords are going to have an issue and be extremely concerned with even small %'s of dps issues because it is literally what they have to cling to and fight againist many others over. 

Offline Romerez

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2006, 01:42:43 am »
We normally run 3 or 4 monks, 1 or 2 ber, like 3 wizzy, and at least 2 rogues and with pet included my overall dps on raid mobs can sometimes be more then some of these classes I just mentioned. I am not even close to being number 1 on my server either. The ppl I am out dpsing are. I don't even have my 2.0 yet, but when I do dps charts better watch out! Cause here I come.

Offline Discordant

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2006, 04:26:38 am »
Tastian, you can try to sugar coat Rake as much as you want, but its only a marginal upgrade.  Unless its reuse time is changed or something else added to it to increase its damage, its not of much use.

Offline Romerez

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2006, 05:05:42 am »
Hmmm a triple attack that you can use every 30 secs, uses hardly any endurance, average hit 397 crits for over 1k at times and your saying its not much of any use. Does this make much sense to anyone else cause it sure doesnt to me. I like Rake alot and other bst's that I know that have gotten this ability do to.

Offline Tastian

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2006, 06:52:25 am »
"Tastian, you can try to sugar coat Rake as much as you want, but its only a marginal upgrade."

I don't sugar coat anything.  I talk the facts ~99% of the time and try to leave it at just that.  I was complaining about rake before most had even heard about it let alone seen it.  I still feel there are issues with it that I try to get fixed.  However, some of the complaints people lobby are simply off base.  The fact that some people will make it sound like I'm defending something I openly have issues with just goes to show how far out there some of the statements are imo.

Rake doesn't single handly fix our high end dps issues; big shocker there.  Just like I said before this reminds me of the people that kept trying to hang their aggro issue fix on roar.  It's one piece of a large, complex puzzle.  Rake could be better and I want it to be, but it could very easily be a heck of a lot worse.  Seriously, if you use the old us at ~1k dps, rog/ber around the 1.8 range, what do you suggest?  They give us a spell in PoR that gives ~400-500dps more(without costing any mana or else the net gains would be even lower)?  Honest question, did you honestly think you'd buy PoR and do one task and suddenly a class that has been misunderstood for 4 or so years would immediatly be "fixed" at the highest end without causing problems at the lower end?

People keep bashing rake because it's "only" 25(ish) dps, but what about some of our other beastlord abilities(baseline)...

FM(landing 100% of the time)  -  148base / 6  ~24dps
Ancient savage ice -  1034 / 30  ~34dps
CB is ~35
Glacier spear is ~31

All of which cost mana and create tradeoff situations where the net dps will vary some, resists will vary, etc.  Rake runs on END at a cost that even those that are againist it admitt is reasonable.  Rakes dps is compareable to having FM on the mob full time with no casting time, no mana used, and no resists.  It's in the area of 1/4th the melee damage my warder does for the love of god.  You throw some progression onto rake so it scales a bit, fix the range(it's being looked at), and the skill fits great for the class, is kinda "fun" in many's opinion and doesn't create future problems with our division of power.

Seriously, start throwing some figures at me for what you'd like to see rake do and I'll bring them to rash myself.  You want me to tell him rake needs to do 50dps?  100dps?  Is 100dps even going to be enough or are we going to continue to hang all of our fixes on one skill from a very, very weak power giving expansion and go for like 3 or 400?  Let me know because clearly by pointing out where rake falls in the grand scheme of things and for this expansion is "sugar coat(ing)" it.  Since I'll assume it's ok to still try for some progression built into the skill I'll even settle for a range(ie time-20dps angusih-50dps DP-100dps etc).  I want to know exactly what some of you are expecting and what to ask for.  Obviously my numbers and logic are horribly flawed and I'm skewing things somehow on this one.

Rom -  It's possible you are out dps'n some of those classes now and even certain players, but at the higher end baring extreme extenuating cirumstances a bst isn't out dps'n some of those classes you mention.  It's nothing againist you, it's nothing againist the class, it's just how the game works.  Heck it's how it should work if we'd just get some utility back lol.  The numbers highend rog/ber pull down seriously boggle my mind.  I was having a talk with a friend of mine who retired a few years back and I had to actually stop and make sure I wasn't off because it really is just crazy where things have gotten to.  *shrugs*

Offline nazkira

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2006, 08:36:16 am »
Rake isn't an "upgrade" at all. What does it upgrade? It's a completely new ability. Free damage and a use for our barely-touched endurance. A lot of people seem to be expecting the devs to address class reeinvisioning in expansions as a matter of course. I don't get that. Class reeinvisioning is a stand-alone issue. Any nod toward our class issues is a bonus as far as I'm concerned.

At any rate, what other class got a damage ability comparable to Rake in PoR? Warriors, Monks, Rogues, Berserkers, Rangers? No way. Berserkers got a few nice abilities, but they're group-based so we all benefit. The Ranger nuke might be on-par or better than Rake, but I doubt most of them will be running three nukes, so net-net it's probably not as good (it'll be the difference between their 65 ancient nuke and the Por nuke). Warrior, Rogue and Monk PoR abilities are basically laughable. IMO we made out better than most other melee classes, just like we did in DoD. I can't help but think this is due to a better understanding of Beastlord dynamics by the devs.

Which leads to the next issue. It almost seems like they're front-loading us on expansions because they know we won't benefit as much as our peers on DPS-affecting itemization. Interesting. Although I must say, the Demi-plane leather armor has to be the most seemingly beastlord-conscious armor set I've seen yet. In PoR I've seen a chain bracer with Cleave VI AND the 60% heal focus. If there's a leather version with the same focuses, things are looking pretty damn good on the Beastlord/Focus/Effects front. But I digress.

I just don't understand the notion that Rake "sucks". I understand the desire for it to, for instance, scale with weapon quality; but I also think that that kind of change is asking the devs to take an already good ability and tune it to also address our Top 10 list.:) Which I'm all for; but I think we lose credibility when we compare it to junk abilities like Feral Swipe. There's no comparison.

Offline Romerez

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2006, 10:46:28 am »
Tas, I am in a high end raiding guild and I personally am not the best geared in the guild by far, I have alot of catching up to do. For example we killed the Tree guy in ToB tonight. I (without my 68 dod spell) or my 2.0 did a total of 207k dmg to this mob. I was 11th on the parse. 400 dps throughout the fight, dunno what my burst was. I'm trying to say that bst can be good dps but you have to play the class to the fullest, you have to hit feral swipe even tho its gay everytime it pops, hit rake when it pops, hell I even hit kick when it pops. Also use my Ancient nuke and Glacier Spear everytime it pops. Panther is also a real nice spell I use all the time. We have many lil things that can add up to being great things and I think ppl just tend not to use all of the bst capabilites. Then they complain about not being good dps on the boards. Sure it wasn't as good as most of the rogues/ber/ and monks that were there. Hell one of the rogues did like 400k to the same mob, but thats the top rogue on the server and I don't plan on ever having that kind of dps. Rogues, monks, and berserkers don't have the spells/abilities we do. They can't slow mobs, they can't heal themselves without discs and not constant, they don't have pets to add dps. They don't have nukes/dots or buffs. Get over it ppl, we were never meant to be a high dps class. If you wanted to be a high dps class then why are you not a Rogue or a Berserker?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 10:51:27 am by Romerez »

Offline Iskandar

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2006, 12:54:24 pm »
Get over it ppl, we were never meant to be a high dps class. If you wanted to be a high dps class then why are you not a Rogue or a Berserker?

The issue that most people have concerns over isn't whether we are a "high DPS class" or not... it's how our DPS scales with progression. If you compare our DPS progression curve with a similar class (Rangers are usually chosen as they offer comparable utility to ours) you can quickly see that we don't scale up as quickly nor as well. Yes, our DPS does improve with gear, spells, and abilities... but not as much as it improves for other classes with their versions of the same gear, spells, and abilities. This is why you see people complaining about us "lagging behind" other classes in terms of DPS.
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Offline Romerez

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2006, 01:16:23 pm »
Your still not getting my point, so let me try again. On tonight's parse (guild parses every fight) there was 11 ppl out of 60 on the raid that did more dmg then me at 207k dmg 400 dps. these ppl included 2 rogues 5 monks 1 berserker 2 wizards and 1 really really sick SK. Now I am one of the newest members of this guild and VM is one of the top 3 guilds on our server. I do not have my 2.0 yet (every person that beat me on the parse does) I do not have the gear the ppl above me have either. I have 10k hps where as all the monks that beat me have between 12 and 13k hps unbuffed (obviously a big difference in equipment there). Also another thing to add to this factor I do NOT have my 68 DoD spell, Bestial Empathy which is supposed to be like a raw 130 dps upgrade for us. So you add in my pet (70k dmg) and me 207k dmg, you looking at 277k dmg by me.
The top parsed person was a rogue at 400k dmg. You add in my 2.0 and Bestial Empathy and that adds at the very least another 50k dmg to that which puts me at doing the same dmg as the monks and almost as much as our top dpsers. So once again I say I really don't think its the class that has the problem, but perhaps the ppl behind the computers not using all the the utilities given to us. Look at the last three expansions, DoN gives us Panther (which fuggin rocks), DoD gives us Bestial Empathy and and Empathic Fury, PoR gives us a 500 dd pet proc that hasnt been found yet and the new ability Rake. If you take a look at what monks, ranger, rogues, and berserkers got with these expansions you will see that the dps abilites/spells from the new expansions has in fact been better for our class then they have been for the pure dps classes. So how are we "lagging behind"
« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 02:46:52 pm by Romerez »

Offline Rhoam

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2006, 04:15:06 pm »
After reading this entire thread, I have two things to say: First, Tastian does not sugarcoat anything, ever. He is the voice of reason 100% of the time and his opinions are based on personal knowledge that results from testing. To suggest that he sugarcoats anything, tells me that the person who suggested it, does not share the same attention to detail (or reality) as Tastian does.

Second, Rom, I dont think the others are the ones missing the point. Do you honestly believe that you are the only one among us who plays his beast to max out his dps? I know we all play differently but I never assume that I am the only one who knows how to max out my beastlord's dps. We may have gotten some new abilities in the last two expansions that show that the Devs are finally understanding some of our concerns (thank you Tatian), but we still lag on dps bigtime and our utility is still eroded. I dont expect to be the highest  dps class but I would like some of our utility restored or an increase in dps to make up for our lost utility.

Offline Tastian

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2006, 07:28:08 pm »
What amazes me is that you've got some people making me sound like I'm bashing bst in one post and overrating them in the same damn post.  /boggle.  Few things as always

Rom -  First, you insult a lot of beastlords by thinking that some of them are slacking and that is the issue.  Believe me I know slacking bst.  I know some that don't keep a warder up, that don't cast growl, that have 100AA, that don't send their warder, etc, etc.  Then I know other beastlords that like me don't even have kick ungrey because we are so used to clicking it.  As a beastlord with maxed offensive AA, who uses feral swipe, kick, BE, BA, BS, Buhhhh you get the point lol, it's not the player in many cases. 

First I have to re-state that finishing "top 10" is far, far, far more about guild comp than anything else in many cases.  The real issue is relative dps and where we fall.  Just as two simple examples:

Guild_1 -  6 rogues, 5 wiz, 4 mages, 2 necro, 2 zerker, 4 monks, 2 bst, 3 rangers 
Guild_2 -  1 rogue, 2 wiz,  0 mage, 1 necro, 0 zerker, 2 monks, 3 bst, 3 rangers

In guild 1 by most people's account in a "balanced" game a beastlord wouldn't be the rog(6)+wiz(5)+mage(4)+necro(2)+ber(2) basically ever.  That means the beastlord would be finishing no better than 19th or so on a given mob and that depends on what the other bst, the monks and the rangers do.

In guild 2 the bst with the same gear on the same mobs in the same situations should take top 10.  Heck all 3 should be "top 10" in a lot of situations.

I know it's hard for a lot of people to do, but you have to not only look at your situation, but look at other situations, look at what could happen to change your situation, where you've been, where you are headed.  If your guild rom added 3 rogues and 2 bers you'd be "top 15" dps almost instantly.  If they added 2 more wiz and a necro suddenly you are "usually to 20".  Notice how quickly it falls off and nothing you do gear wise changed, nothing you did play style wise changed, etc.  This is why "relative_dps" has to be looked at and technically "relative_potential_dps" because if someone is slacking or whatever that doesn't create the need for change.

Also you seem to overrate some of the upgrades.  BE isn't a flat 130dps upgrade unless you are basically FM all the time.  It's 175 mana per tick to sustain it base and most beastlords have to give up a nuke(or two), sometimes growl, etc so they can use it instead.   In those cases where you don't finish a fight with mana left over than the net gains from BE are smaller than what the spell itself is adding because other spells would have converted the mana to damage for you.  In some cases though, yeah it's a pure upgrade because you wouldn't otherwise burn that mana.

Another thing you miss is how small the "upgrades" between you and others are.  If you had raided with the same people in say time, then GoD, then omens, then depths, now PoR you'd notice that you don't progress like them.  You mention not having your epic 2.0, but do you realize that going from 1.5 to 2.0 is a boost of ~30dps(bit more with pet procs) assuming full AAs, maxedhaste, 2k(ish) atk, in almost perfect situations?  Do you honestly think that is the type of boosts others see going from their 1.5 to their 2.0?  Watch a rogue sometime using an ifir, then a 1.5, then a 2.0.  Watch what happens to zerker dps as they go from 1.0 to 1.5 to 2.0.  Also realize that the 2.0 is actually one of the best upgrades because of all it gives.  Oh, and before you think this is some "comparision to rog/ber" do the samething for a ranger, or a monk, or even a warrior.  Heck it was the 2.0 that put me in the dog house againist a couple knights at one point until other changes happened.  We progress less due largely to our division of power.  That's just a fact of the beastlord class.  *shrugs*

You keep looking at where you are and admitt the top rogue is doing almost double your damage.  Guess what, if you get everything you can the top rogue is still going to out dps you by uhhhhh, lots(75ish% depending)  lol.  Most are ok with that, we don't want to out dps rogues, we don't want to out dps zerkers, etc.  What we want is for the combination of our utility and our dps to make a reasonable package for a raid to take along.  Right now the utility of a beastlord beyond the first is almost nothing, and the dps at the higher end needs some work.  Right now is actually better than it's been because as you mention DoN, certainly depths and even PoR relative to others have helped things.  The fact that the devs are giving us almost ~15X the dps boost monks saw in PoR kinda shows they know beastlord dps can use some work at the higher end as well. 

Mind you this isn't everyone in every situation.  I know some bst that top dps charts, finish "top 5", etc.  Again it's not something that one stray case disproves, but rather something shown via the multitude of other cases.  If you are in a great situation that's awesome and I have never known a beastlord to begrudge anyone that.  At the sametime though many will say "enjoy it while it lasts".  If you are going to be ok having rogues do ~2k dmg while you pull down ~1100 then that's great and that's your choice.  However, unless our utility gets a reasonable boost many beastlords aren't going to buy into doing around half the damage a rogue does in various situations; especially with how some raids run these days.

"they don't have pets to add dps. They don't have nukes/dots"

This is just a distractionary tactic though in a discussion.  Beastlords don't get innate double attack, we don't get "kick" upgrades, we don't get tons of things they do.  When talking dps it's the total package that needs to be evaluated first and then one can consider how that number is arrived at.  Heck shm and sks get pets and dots and nukes as well.  Look at the overall picture, understand that you have a right to an opinion, but also know where the bounds of that fall.  *shrugs*

Offline BriguyFV

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2006, 09:16:08 pm »
This whole thread is beginning to piss me off. I keep reading this thread because of the name of it "PoR what found so far" I want to see about armor, I want to see about spells and auras, I DON"T want to this bitching. Isn't there a seperate area for this. HEY MODS WILL YOU PLEASE STEP IN!! Don't get me wrong, Tash you do a great job but I'm tried of hearing this. You shouldn't have to defend what SoE makes our Aura. Have any of you even got it yet? No you haven't so shut the hell up.

Personally I like the idea of this aura. Isn't the Shammy Aura some kind of AE Slow? How useful is that in raids? I don't think these auras were made for the raid suitation.

Take this for what it is. You don't like it, shove it up your *bunnies*

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2006, 09:31:35 pm »
Umm Tast, you should know my numbers. And yes of course i mean boss mobs, i do average 130 dps with BE alone and i can keep that up for 11.5 minutes straight in a raid situation if i chose to do that, so not only on burn mobs. BE is of course not 525 mana, its 394 (or 131/tick) which makes it a lot easier, especially since you can get around 50+ mana/tick on raids as well (SA, C6, enc aura, mana clicky, bard, mindwrack, SKs, mod rod, perfection).
You have my beta parses on rake so you know exactly how good it is, at best over a long time its 25 dps upgrade since you have to take into account that mobs are not always pinned and you will get riposte/dodge/block/parry on it. Even if you disc that isnt that many hits that it will shift the figures by a large amount.

Offline Taiglin

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2006, 11:56:13 pm »
Bri - while I think I have similar feelings about this thread it sounds like you had a bad day at work or something. Not sure you could point to just one person and say they derailed what I am guessing the original intent of the thread was (Damn you Tash.....ummm who is Tash again?).

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Offline Darkdestroyer

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OT: PoR what found so far
« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2006, 11:16:12 am »
  Bri is right. Why is it the majority of threads, no matter what the subject, get turned into a dps parse, whinging moaning thread?