Author Topic: Mages vs Beastlords etc.  (Read 28283 times)

Offline Shamno

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Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« on: October 10, 2006, 05:35:14 am »
Now as another class we should be trying to get along with are the mage class.

There has been some concern from the mage community and has been brought up on the mage boards from EQlive.

Thread to Topic http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Magicians&message.id=2864

Now I don't want it to be a flame fest or a grass is greener discussion because the intention of the thread, though looks sort of like it, wasn't meant in that way either. Try to be constructive plz :)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 05:38:17 am by Shamno »

Offline Jaeren

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2006, 11:06:39 pm »
Mages come up with this conclusion every few months / every time there's an expansion and complain about us. Some have erupted into full scale flame fests. In the end, most beastlords want the mage's heals, the mages want the bst heals and SOE does neither :p
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Offline Vidyne

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2006, 12:37:46 am »
erm..

Beastlords got the mage heals...

We are content now :)

Offline Pakratz

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2006, 04:03:55 am »
That granite stance thing that lowers pet damage taken looks hot.  I understand why they want our heals (esp. promised mending) b/c their pets can actually tank and heals would be useful.  I can count on 1 finger then # of times ive healed my pet in the past week (outside of Mend Companion).

The other thing ive noticed since TSS has come out is that mage pets now out-dps my warder.  Warder was never out-dps'd in the past, usually about 10% better than mage pets. 

So the grass is always greener :-)

Offline Shamno

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2006, 05:15:45 am »
To me I thni k the thread is mnore of a chance to work with another class to get some issues hashed out and discuss what works and what doesn't when it comes to pet surviability over all. If we can at least get that sort of set up with a second class daying the same thing, maybe most the remaining issues can be fixed *Shrug*

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2006, 07:01:30 am »
Regardless of his disclaimers to the contrary, it's an "Im jealous of what the beastlords got" thread, never mind the fact he downplayed the value of the mage spells while upplaying the value of beastlord spells.

Offline Skanda

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2006, 08:32:39 am »
To me I thni k the thread is mnore of a chance to work with another class to get some issues hashed out and discuss what works and what doesn't when it comes to pet surviability over all. If we can at least get that sort of set up with a second class daying the same thing, maybe most the remaining issues can be fixed *Shrug*

It's way too late to salvage anything from that thread. Once the mages start crying about how their pets should always and without question be better then our pets I think you lose any chance you have at reasonable discussion with us.

Offline Shamno

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2006, 04:20:50 pm »
They seem to be right about one thing though, or sort of right form what I have observed. Their Aura with Agra's Celerity is about the same with our new pet haste.

Something that probably couldn't hurt adjusting so it stacks or something. *shrug*

Part of the bickering is thier utiltiy affecting our pets but ours not effecting thiers. Realisticly this is the nature of the beast if, you will, with them having their pet utility all the time and us not *shrug* Yet somehow they think our pets are coming close or even ahead of theirs. This is not really the case and lore wise the fact we have abilities to affect our own pets but not others does make sense for us.

Look at Growl and 69 disc. In our own class description this is what we do. It makes sense. They of the master of pets can enhance any pet. It like a bard complaining that a beastlord will surpass them in melee DPS when the bard is in the same group while they will have the slight advantage thier ablities bring when not in the same group. It is a contridiction to think this isn't suppose to happen in some manors.


Offline Sharrien

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2006, 02:12:33 pm »
Our pet-specific buffs may not affect mage pets, but our regular line of buffs do.  Pets have notoriously low agility and dex, simply casting IoS (if there isn't a sahmmy around) on a pet will boost it's dps.  The agility really helps a mage pet's avoidance and for it to fire Burnign Aura procs.

Yes, the armor, weapons, belt and muzzle plus aura bonus that a mage can give to our pets boost us more than the stat and hp buffs can boost theirs.  Big deal.  As I said in their thread, I saw a mage pet tanking in Valdeholm spider pit.  The day I see a beast warder doing that same, I'll start trying to sell showshoes in hell.
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Offline Shamno

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2006, 03:01:57 pm »
Yeah some of the basic stuff I can understand. The runes, prism skin recourse, and even to some extent the pet heals make sense to me. Grant it we will always have better pet heals because of AA's alone. They mainly drooling over the promise mending spell, as situational as I found but I know others like it.Though I don't mind see mages getting a lesser copy of that spell and a few more pet heals with better ratios then what they have now.

Spellbreaker Guard and the direct pet runes, and some spell with prims skin recourse should have been made universal to the 3 pet classes though. Like they started out in LDoN. No reason that should have changed. The spells were designed to fix an issues that all 3 pet classes do have to some extent.

Other then that I don't think they have a leg to stand on. Our buffs are merely a little over 900 hp and I highly doubt this closes the gap all that much between our pet and thiers. Growl and our Disc are rather limited and shouldn't be made to go to other pets because of the limited state.....last thing I want is a tell every minute to cast Growl, still fending off the ferocity tells.

Also they expect slow to be balanced into this like it is an actual pet spell. Yeah pet proc, but I am sure you know what I mean.

Offline Tulisin

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2006, 05:59:00 am »
While beastlord pets certainly don't pass mage pets in any situation yet, the fact that beastlord pet utility in TSS was so nice compared to magician pet utility, compounded with the fact that most of the magician utility is shared between all pets means the warder<->elemental gap is being closed.

Offline Shamno

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2006, 06:54:15 am »
Problem is you guys misunderstand the use of utility.

Take the 2 knights classes. Ideally they will have the same HP when under similiar progression and AA's. Now a Paladin on his own becauzse of his utility will have more HP. The paladin doesn't buff the SK and then complains about a gap closer, simply becuase the SK got the same amount of those utilities the SK has.

Or take a Zerker and a Monk. The intended DPS gap does not take the aura of the zerker into consideration when solo or grouped with the monk. It is utility.

The gap between our pet and your pet is without pet aura and pet weapons, these are simply utility. Like my SV and focus lines. Like Slow and Damage Shields.

Now I can agree to the heals to an extent, I can agree that a PoR spell prism skin upgrade is in order, I can also agree that you should gotten Spellbreakes guard like we should have gotten Mammoth skin as well.....pet runes should be universal.

I just don't agree that magically we suddenly close a gap by using your utiltiy.

Other then Spellbreakers and the Pet heal, which I can understand to an extent. I don't understand the other base arguements. It simply doens't match up.

Offline Skanda

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2006, 07:07:12 am »
Quote
the fact that beastlord pet utility in TSS was so nice compared to magician pet utility

I thought "utility" was what defined us as a class. We're certainly not a DPS class nor are we a tank class. When we try asking for upgrades to some things we usually get our utility (in the form of our slow mostly) thrown back in our face as to why people don't think we deserve an upgrade.

What is the beastlord class if not a Utility class?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 07:32:42 am by Skanda »

Offline Humlaine

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2006, 10:18:00 pm »
From what I have seen from the last 4 years of playing a bst ... we have slowly been leaning towards a dps class from GoD to current.  we havent gained alot of affects ( utility in the last few expansions ) Fero was and still is in a much need state of upgrade...... Perfection is our biggest tool on raids and its doesnt even compare to other utility classes.  I would say at the current moment bsts are in a transition period.....SoE doesnt seem to know what exactly they want to do with our class....and no offense to those who have helped or have tried to give soe a good direction most of the Vision/ Arguements you put up are Weak and not well thought out.....we need to get together as a whole and agree on things and Then post on what we want to see changed.  This is a proven method from talking with the monk class corrispondant and rogue one....its the only way to get dev's to listen....just my 2 cents worth....thanks

Offline Tulisin

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2006, 10:46:30 pm »
Quote
the fact that beastlord pet utility in TSS was so nice compared to magician pet utility

I thought "utility" was what defined us as a class. We're certainly not a DPS class nor are we a tank class. When we try asking for upgrades to some things we usually get our utility (in the form of our slow mostly) thrown back in our face as to why people don't think we deserve an upgrade.

What is the beastlord class if not a Utility class?

The important word is *pet* though. I'm not saying beastlords shouldn't have gotten the pet utility they did. None of the upgrades were out of line for the beastlord class. However, the primary pet class' utility was lacking in comparison, and that makes the gap close. Beastlords don't need to be nerfed, but mages need a prism skin/hastestatthingy upgrade.