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Author Topic: Mages vs Beastlords etc.  (Read 27126 times)

Offline Tulisin

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2006, 05:44:06 am »
And what's up with this Karma stuff? Can I get even more negative? Tulisin has +1 somehow, I'm so much cooler then him anyway.. you know.. because I'm evocation and he's not.

I think the + 1 was from some post previous to this, like I remember~.


Anyways, I'll be willing to accept that the beastlords got a prism skin upgrade in this expansion and mages didn't, as long as the proc modifier on that prism skin never increases without magicians getting something equivalent. The haste issue still needs to be addressed though, for both classes. Although beastlords are less-affected by this because they don't always have the mage aura at their disposal, the fact remains that:

Arag's Celerity
1:     Increase Attack Speed by 85%
2:    Increase STR by 115
3:    Increase AC by 71
5:    Increase ATK by 75

is better than

Unparalleled Voracity Rk. III
 
Slot    Description
1:    Increase Attack Speed by 85%
2:    Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 8%
3:    Increase AC by 84
5:    Increase ATK by 108

When there is a mage around using

Rathe's Strength Effect    
 
Slot    Description
7:    Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 10%.

Meaning in a raid situation or a group-with-a-mage situation, you should be using your PoP spell, due to the massive effect of the STR boost.

The problem is amplified for magicians since we always have the aura around.

Solution: The new beastlord haste needs a STR boost, and magicians need a new haste that has STR on it.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 05:53:20 am by Tulisin »

Nusa

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2006, 06:08:11 am »
You MAY have a point about the Strength bonus on the older version of our hastes, however the All Skills Modifiers, and your aura, is really a nonissue when you consider our level 69 DoN spell, which hits both the pet and the beastlord, and stacks fine:

Growl of the Panther
Slot    Description
1:    Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 20%
6:    Increase Hitpoints v2 by 150 per tick
7:    Increase Max Hitpoints by 1500

A mana-hog for sure, but anyone who is able to get Rank III spells is also likely to have the mana to burn when it really matters.

Offline bestuss

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2006, 06:15:09 am »
Since i play both a mage at lvl 64 and 2 beasts lvl 40 and 67 i do notice a difference,
looking at heals for instance my mage is using planar renewal ~1200hp roughly healed for 290 mana and 3.75 sec cast,
while a similar level bst would be using healing of sorsha most likely, healing around ~2040hp for 495 mana 3.75 sec cast,
recast times are 2.5 for bst and 2.25 for mage so not much difference.

Now i haven't added any healing aa's or foci for the sake of keeping it simple, with my mage heal i could not keep the pet alive
against a lightblue mob in Blackfeather roost even when casting as fast as possible, doing that my dps drops to zero,
in this case i ended up running to zone since not much else to do, not saying my 67 bast would be able to stay alive either but i find
it more likely, sure bst have no gate but sow helps a bit(yes i do know some mobs run faster still), at 40 doing the relic task in blightfire moors my warder could tank one mob and bst another, sucks that even these mobs in the mid 30's mitigate slow :( there was a mage here at the same time, if she had an add she had to run away,while  i could handle 3 mobs at once, sure some thanks to higher level but slow(even mitigated) and my healing spell helps, sure mage can use healing potions but the 2 min reuse timer is a killer :)

All in all i'm fairly happy with my mage/bst, the only thing i can think of is the pet heal part, sure the bst ones if looking at 64 costs more mana but it also heals almost twice as much and while my bst i no aa monster i still critted the pet heal for 5k+ when trying to solo the sunderock geyser task, not that it helped i died anyway :)

Can't say much about the spells you discuss mostly since there higher level then me, the pet buffs i have right now i rarely use i admit, except for the haste one.
/Nexxius lvl 40 beastlord on Antonius Bayle
My magelo
/Goloog lvl 67 beastlord on Antonius Bayle Goloogs magelo

Offline Tulisin

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2006, 06:28:23 am »
You MAY have a point about the Strength bonus on the older version of our hastes, however the All Skills Modifiers, and your aura, is really a nonissue when you consider our level 69 DoN spell, which hits both the pet and the beastlord, and stacks fine:

Growl of the Panther
Slot    Description
1:    Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 20%
6:    Increase Hitpoints v2 by 150 per tick
7:    Increase Max Hitpoints by 1500

A mana-hog for sure, but anyone who is able to get Rank III spells is also likely to have the mana to burn when it really matters.


And this results in a 28 % skill damage modifier for the warder? I have never known modifiers to stack like that, but your spell may be a special case. I always assumed that the 20 % would just take effect, effectively increasing the modifier by 12 % over the regular haste for the duration.

Nusa

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2006, 06:42:23 am »
No, I just meant there were no stacking issues in casting the spell. Only the highest modifier takes effect, 20% in this case.

Oh, long as we're at it, let's mention the spell druids love to toss on all the melee and pets these days:

Mammoth's Strength Rk. III (base duration 72 mins)
7:    Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 8%

One of  the first spells I click off if I need the slots.

Offline neight

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2006, 11:45:51 am »
It's a fact, and I know damn well that beastlords wouldn't like it if mages were given the ability to tank and do respectable melee damage as well as slow. No, that would be encrouching on your territory and you wouldn't feel too happy about it.

This is what cracks me up about the "my class isn't powerful enough, wah wah" crowd. I could care less if you get everything mentioned above, plus a dev to personally come to your house and follow you around with a padded recliner and a box of tissues to wipe your tears every time you think class X is outperforming you.
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Offline Shieara

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2006, 12:47:01 pm »
/shrug

I really don't have an issue with the pet rune spells being shared out equally between all the pet classes.  It's been that way since LDoN and I really don't think it makes sense to change it now.  As far as promised mending goes, I see no reason why mages can't get a version that scales with their current level of heals.   Same thing with the prism guard.  The haste issue obviously needs to be looked at and it affects both classes.

I guess I don't have a problem with it because I don't feel like I am competing for groups with mages.  Mages pretty much seem to be taken for dps.  I am picked more for my slows.  So the way I see it, strengthening mages makes my groups better.  Anyways, it is rare for me to even see a mage, and I like grouping with them, so maybe they need a boost to get more people playing them.

Nusa

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2006, 01:28:59 pm »
Actually, ANY class that gets all their defensive AA's and picks up enough AC, HP, and avoidance gear can do a lot more tanking than you might realize. Of course the reality is that casters have other priorities when choosing what to get, so when they go down like wet rags, its partly because of their choices. You see it among beastlords, too...some of us focus entirely on maximizing dps and then wonder why they die so often.

Offline Taiglin

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2006, 01:29:16 pm »
Bestuss - when was the last time you cast a pet heal lol? I haven't memmed one for over 2 years (I say this as a non soloing, non raiding fellow). To compare pet heals in such a manner (on paper vs how they are used/not used in the game) is silly. The mob to toon to pet dynamic is totally different. I don't mem a pet heal because my pet doesn't take damage usually. Instead I mem a regular heal and use that on the pet if I need to. The comparison of pet heals is almost like saying warriors should ask for range DPS increase bringing them closer to what rangers can do simply because they can use a bow too. That isn't what warriors do. Do we have the best pet heals? Yes. Do our pets tank? No. If mages get a better heal should we stamp out feet and cry "mage pet heals are closing the gap on us being the best pet healers in the game"? lol. Until they change the underlying code where mobs automatically attack toons in proximity range vs pets I just don't see this changing.

My issue with the talk of a "gap" being closed is what is that gap really? Is it a paper comparison of which class has more pet utility spells? If that is the case are mages tied to pets in the same way we are in terms of recourses (this I don't know)? I realize that in terms of surviability on the soloing front if our pets die we can take a few hits, if a solo mage's pet dies there are a few more issues. What I am talking about are our discs and spells that don't fire/we can't use if our pet is dead ie snare, growl line, 69 offensive disc, (broken) pet slow at 75, etc. Not to mention the spell gems we have given up to have those things memmed. I wouldn't be surprised if this wont be more and more of the trend (Bst utility tied to pet; pet must be alive). The spells we got in TSS are an attempt to try to keep the pets alive longer because they die quick. At the end of the day my mage's pets still are better tanks then my warder. Can we now keep our pets alive longer? Yes. With the new TSS spells will you start seeing Bst fight like mages and have their pets tank for them? Going out on a limb here (sarcasm) but I will venture to say "No." Honestly I see that as the main issue. Until Bsts pets outtank mage pets I just don't see an issue with a whose pet is the betterest "gap." If that day comes then no doubt there are issues.

Keep up the fight though cause as long as Bst don't get nerfed this only helps me since I box a Bst/Mage/Dru =)

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Offline Jaeren

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2006, 02:15:56 pm »
Quote
Beastlord pets are closing the gap between mage pets

This is the problem as I see it. Mages aren't super super far ahead of us anymore so they freak out and try to get us nerfed. Frankly, I'm tired of this debate for the what, third time? Mages, listen up. You can't be the best at every damn thing, stop trying to get us nerfed, stirring up shit on our forums, etc. If you want more power, talk to your correspondant. If/when Sony laughs at you for wanting to be able to tank as good as a leather class, nuke like a wizzie, have a pet so powerful that its like 2boxing all the time, etc... Don't come crying nerf to other classes because your demands are unreasonable.

*shrugs* May sound harsh, but in the years I've been running this site, I've dealt with this debate multiple times and my patience with whiny ass mages trying to nerf the shit out of us to make their epeens bigger is now nil.

Off to the Sewers with this thread.
EQ - Morell Thule / Erollisi Marr (Retired):
[75 Beastlord] Jaeren (Barbarian)
[72 Cleric] Velissia (High Elf)
[69 Shaman] Sotar (Vah Shir)
   WoW - Medivh (Retired):
[60 Rogue] Draeven (Undead)
[60 Priest] Lifesaver (Undead)
[56 Rogue] Klaien (Human)
[51 Paladin] Keidian (Human)
   VSOH - Flamehammer (Retired)
[34 Disciple] Daevien (Half Elf)
[33 Bard] Pastorius (Kojani)
[26 Dread Knight] Draeven (Kojani)


Offline Bengali

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2006, 02:46:54 pm »
However, the primary pet class' utility was lacking in comparison,

That is what I hate the most about you mages. For some reason you think you're the "kings" of the pet world. No one has ever explained why that should be the case in a reasonable manner to me before and I totally disagree with that attitude.

To break it down for you in the most logical manner possible. A long long time ago, before the Beastlord class was even a twinkle in Sony's eye, there was the mage class....

I apologize for the massive snipping of your post, but I just wanted to point out that referring to the time before beastlords existed as a means of establishing where mages and beastlords should stand currently isn't even remotely logical, much less "the most logical manner possible."  It's like arguing that reptiles should be considered the most advanced creatures on earth because that's what they were before mammals existed, or that the Tampa Bay Buccaneers shouldn't have won Super Bowl XXXVII because they didn't exist back when Green Bay won the first one.

Moreover, your approach in your post (in the parts that I haven't quoted) isn't even logically consistent.  According to you, the strength of mage pets was a byproduct of their reduced desirability in other areas and a logical extension of their "summoning" abilities, as opposed to a "vision" of mages as the ultimate pet using class.  In other words, you're telling a story where mage pets were something of an afterthought to prove the point that the primary design of mages was to be the ultimate, unsurpassed pet class for all eternity.

The real answer is that mage pets and beastlord pets (and the abilities each class has to deal with pets) have to be viewed differently because of the fundamentally different ways in which they are used.  Mages don't get fast, super-efficient, high powered heals because if they did, they could use their pets to tank much more effectively than they do now, which apparently SOE doesn't want (or at least hasn't wanted in the past).  Mages don't get slow for various reasons, but one thing that really stands out is that slow actually does not complement some of the other mage primary abilities, like damage shields.  If a mage pet is tanking something, the mage wouldn't even WANT it to be slowed so long as the pet can survive the target's damage output.  The faster a mob hits, the more damage your damage shield does.  Again, this is why mages covet fast, powerful heals (along with tough tanking pets) -- it would allow them to get the most use out of damage shields while also increasing pet survivability.  And because mages can do almost all of their damage from range, their pets are able to tank for them.

Beastlord pets work differently (in fact, beastlords themselves play almost entirely differently as a melee/hybrid than mages do as spellcasters, which makes these comparisons all the more ridiculous).  Beastlords can't use thier pets to tank for them, since for the most part beastlords need to be in melee range to do damage, which prevents the pet from taking aggro from a mob because of the hard-coded mob target preferences.  By and large, beastlords care more about the damage output of their pets rather than outright tanking ability.

In a world where we were starting from scratch, we might imagine mages having powerful tank pets to defend them, and beastlords having high damage pets to assist with dps, based on how each class actually uses their pets to complement "weaker" areas where they need help.  Each pet would actually have different strengths that complemented the class that it belonged to, and if one pet surpassed another in a particular area or possessed abilities that weren't shared by the other pets, it wouldn't be viewed as some kind of MMORPG treason.

But we don't live in that world.  We instead live in a world where people (or at least mages) imagine mages having pets that are the best at everything, by a large margin, in every conceivable situation, simply because they existed first.  It's not a world that makes a whole lot of sense, though.  It's the primary reason these discussions never go anywhere.
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Offline Nilaman

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2006, 03:43:49 pm »
*shrugs* May sound harsh, but in the years I've been running this site, I've dealt with this debate multiple times and my patience with whiny ass mages trying to nerf the shit out of us to make their epeens bigger is now nil.

Off to the Sewers with this thread.

Thanks for being reasonable! No one wants beastlords nerfed, I barely have a use for them as is. This thread was a good idea to discuss things among the pet classes, and it was not initiated by a mage, but some people would rather be thick. It's ok, just slow the mobs and toss some mana regen at me buddy. Eventually mages will end up with these spells that should in essence be for all the major pet classes anyway.

Offline Discordant

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2006, 06:38:57 pm »
I for one agree with Jaeren.  I've heard this same argument everytime Beastlords catchup to mages in an area, and the next expansion usually brings about a significant shift upwards in mage power in comparision with a beastlord.

I'm frankly tired of hearing the mages should have the nukes that they have, the pets that they have and all of their other utility, PLUS having pets that are significantly more powerful than any other class in the game.  Mages were made overpowered when DODH came out, and its only take the developers now to realize that they needed to bring them back in line.  If you want the same types of tools, get rid of all the nuke upgrades you guys have gotten over the last few expansions, then maybe you will find an ear over here.

We've been screwed over for so long; you can't expect us not to get defensive when you call for nerfs on our abilities, especially after we've fought tooth and nail for god knows how many years to get us back to a point of viability.

Offline Jaeren

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2006, 06:52:27 pm »
*shrugs* May sound harsh, but in the years I've been running this site, I've dealt with this debate multiple times and my patience with whiny ass mages trying to nerf the shit out of us to make their epeens bigger is now nil.

Off to the Sewers with this thread.

Thanks for being reasonable! No one wants beastlords nerfed, I barely have a use for them as is. This thread was a good idea to discuss things among the pet classes, and it was not initiated by a mage, but some people would rather be thick. It's ok, just slow the mobs and toss some mana regen at me buddy. Eventually mages will end up with these spells that should in essence be for all the major pet classes anyway.

So uh you barely have a use for beastlords as it is but we're overpowered? Uh yeah. Thanks for proving my point that you just wanted to cause problems. And for future reference. Insulting forum owners.. Not overly smart. If i was so thick headed and unreasonable, you wouldn't be able to see this message. I'd ban you and block your ip address from accessing the site. Instead, I gave my viewpoint and moved the thread to the Sewers which is the rant & rave section. Aka: bitch however much you want but guess what? I don't care to read your posts and won't unless it goes really over the line and people complain about them. (Or I get extremely bored and cruise through the sewers)

Once again though, thanks for saying that we are useless. But still need a nerf.  :mrgreen:
EQ - Morell Thule / Erollisi Marr (Retired):
[75 Beastlord] Jaeren (Barbarian)
[72 Cleric] Velissia (High Elf)
[69 Shaman] Sotar (Vah Shir)
   WoW - Medivh (Retired):
[60 Rogue] Draeven (Undead)
[60 Priest] Lifesaver (Undead)
[56 Rogue] Klaien (Human)
[51 Paladin] Keidian (Human)
   VSOH - Flamehammer (Retired)
[34 Disciple] Daevien (Half Elf)
[33 Bard] Pastorius (Kojani)
[26 Dread Knight] Draeven (Kojani)


Offline Nilaman

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Re: Mages vs Beastlords etc.
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2006, 10:35:04 pm »
*shrugs* May sound harsh, but in the years I've been running this site, I've dealt with this debate multiple times and my patience with whiny ass mages trying to nerf the shit out of us to make their epeens bigger is now nil.

Off to the Sewers with this thread.

Thanks for being reasonable! No one wants beastlords nerfed, I barely have a use for them as is. This thread was a good idea to discuss things among the pet classes, and it was not initiated by a mage, but some people would rather be thick. It's ok, just slow the mobs and toss some mana regen at me buddy. Eventually mages will end up with these spells that should in essence be for all the major pet classes anyway.

So uh you barely have a use for beastlords as it is but we're overpowered? Uh yeah. Thanks for proving my point that you just wanted to cause problems. And for future reference. Insulting forum owners.. Not overly smart. If i was so thick headed and unreasonable, you wouldn't be able to see this message. I'd ban you and block your ip address from accessing the site. Instead, I gave my viewpoint and moved the thread to the Sewers which is the rant & rave section. Aka: bitch however much you want but guess what? I don't care to read your posts and won't unless it goes really over the line and people complain about them. (Or I get extremely bored and cruise through the sewers)

Once again though, thanks for saying that we are useless. But still need a nerf.  :mrgreen:

When did I ever claim beastlords were overpowered and/or in need of a nerf? The pet gap is smaller because mages lack the improved spells, not beastlords. Mages did not come to this board and start a thread, a beastlord did because he saw merit in it. You ARE being thick. Understand that? If I wanted to come here and start trouble then I would have done so already. I've never called for a beastlord nerf yet, but I do think they need a DPS upgrade in the form of a melee increase of some kind. Maybe you could bash mobs?? I hear kick is popular, even the snakes are doing it! But seriously, beastlords could use a melee boost. See? Not all h8 for Sony's marketing gimmick, I'm fine with them gaining some kind of talent that would make them more appealing to groups and raids.

And for the nukes? Take a look through Lucy. Look at mage nukes, then wizard nukes, then do a bit of math and figure where we stand with necromancers too. After that, feel free to come back and talk more about how super amazing our nukes are.

Since you want to drag epeen into this discussion... from forum owner to forum owner: Nice advertisements!