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Started by Tastian, November 17, 2006, 01:14:22 PM

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Tastian

Over the next few days a lot is going to be happening on the boards, so please keep an eye on stickies/new threads/parese results/etc.  It's been hella rough after TSS launch, but I've finally started compiling all the data and have some time to finally do something with it.  Right now most beastlords feel our dps is "ok(ish)", but there is no doubt our utility has taken tons of hits and remains in question.  With that in mind I'd like to get some community feedback on a few things before I move ahead with them. So....

What do people think about a *single target*  Paragon?  Right now one of the biggest issues with paragon is that it's clearly balanced as a MGB'able type of ability.  If we could get a single target version there's no doubt it would not only be more powerful, but it would also give us a better chance to get that full return on potential(unlike a MGB'd paragon that lots block/don't use currently).

It'd be nice if a % based single target were possible, but that makes for weak to no upgrades down the road, however, the initial scaling would be great and prevent the major beastlord problem of "falling off".  *shrugs*

So...%?  Numbers?  Refresh?  Hate the idea?  Let me know.  Please stay on point and talk it up.  8)

Khauruk

Single target is one I hadn't thought of.  I like the idea of a group buff, that's /tgbable, but not mgbable.  From reading dev things, they seem incredibly wary of %age based anything nowadays...and we can possibly get the changes "backdated" as it were to perfection.

My idea from EQLive forums:
Paragon - as is.
Perfection and Aura - not MGB-able, much higher return (works out to be app. maybe 20-25% of oow/tss attainable manapools, respectively?)
TURNCOAT!!!!!

jitathab

Single target paragon is BS imo. If the real paragon scaled correctly in the first place we wouldnt be needing to look at a sticking plaster to fix it.

And I dont think our DPS is ok(ish), on any mob with AE's and especially AE ramp we are severly lacking, this accounts for at least 75% of all raid mobs. Our burst DPS on non AE ramp and reasonable AE's is OK though.

Tardar

You know this would have the potential to be a decent conversation if we ever got any feedback.  In other words, if it was an actual conversation with discussion coming from both sides.  We get nothing from the other side in conversations like this and now we are being asked to accept, maybe even endorse a relatively severe reduction of our utility compared to where we were before?  Because we haven't been told anything from the other side, then I don't see any reason to accept or endorse this loss of power.  IF the devs had or would come out and explain their thinking, then we could have a discussion.  But we get nothing and it's troll shit.  Let's pretend a dev came forward and said something about how they thought paragon was over powering, and they explained their thinking and their goals and all the other aspects of our class that we think are important.  Not everything has to be laid out, the argument has to be made that paragon was somehow out of whack before I will accept on principle the reduction that we have received.  Some argument has to be made before I will endorse this kind of neutering of our potential.  Once we set the precedent of endorsing a reduction of our power, then what will be next? 

Kanan

I'm not sure what to think about it.  If they are "balancing" it over it being mgb'able, i'm quite perturbed, honestly.  It doesn't do that much, even raid wide, no matter what the devs or other players who don't really pay attention to it may think.

I find myself rarely, if ever, casting it nowadays, mgb-style, preferring to keep my mgb for SE at the beginning of the night.  There are some encounters where I'll hit it single on a group with high healer concentration.

If the change is to remove the mgb'ability of the para line or of perfection+, then it damn well better be /tgb'able, else I want a refund of them all, bcs I will rarely, if ever, get put into tank groups that have the healers needing the mana infusions.
Kez's Magelo 85 "Arch Animist" of Final Empire on Povar

hakaaba

#5
i'd prefer single group paragon.  Or, how about one of each?

1 version thats weak sauce and can be massed, 1 version thats moderately powerful and /tgbable only, and 1 single target thats super powerful.  All on the same timer of course.

Keep in mind its NOT LOSING ANYTHING.  We already have a bag full of crap.  You really don't want to trade a bag full of crap for a small amount of something useful? ~

Arch Animist of Bertox (Saryrn (Mithaniel Marr))

Tardar

QuoteRight now one of the biggest issues with paragon is that it's clearly balanced as a MGB'able type of ability.

Tastian,
Could you explain what you mean by that?  Balanced against what?  I see it totally opposite.  It's completely unbalanced right now compared to what it was in the PoP era.  That standard has been set and unchanged.  Why do we accept the reduction now?  Is this just a simple situation that we aren't going to get what we want so we might as well be happy with something/anything?  Has that been said?  Has it been explained?  

hakaaba

Devs balance the ability around its maximum possible usefulness.  E.G. when its hitting 72 people.

They reason (and i disagree) that making the ability scale properly for a single group would unbalance it when it was massed and they'd rather us have a weaker ability thats only remotely balanced when you mass it, than a balanced ability thats "too powerful" when massed.

Arch Animist of Bertox (Saryrn (Mithaniel Marr))

Grbage

I like the idea of choices, mgb'able/group only/single target sounds good to me if they scale them in power appropiatly.
Grbage Heep
85 Beast of Torv

Tastian

Yeah, abilities always have to be balanced with atleast some thought toward "best case scenario".  In the case of paragon I doubt it's "balanced" around 71 wizards and 1 beastlord, but it clearly isn't balanced around just the solo beastlord(and potentially their warder). 

Keep in mind also, that this isn't talking about taking paragon and making it single target, but what about having both the current paragon line *AND* a single target "paragon'esqe" type of ability.

Paragon has set idle for awhile, and with out of combat regen things get even "meh'r".  A single target or even TGB, but not MGB'able, version or similiar ability might be an option to give beastlords back a bit of utility.  *shrugs*

Like I said, it's something to chatter about and see.  I'm still pushing for fero changes and numerous other things, but there are a few less talked about options that I'd like to see where people stand. 

Spiritclaw

I would love to see a self/pet only version (as about the only time I really use it is solo while pulling or to boost mana/hp before countdown timer pops.)  A stronger than mgb but not as strong as self/pet would also be a superb idea, again, because when I group they can use it to shorten times between pulls.  I have only used the mgb version in GH a few times, and that is mostly because there were a few guildies who were kind enough to buff me while I was grouped with them, and PoS in GH gives uber regen even standing.
Spiritclaw Sadiablo
80 Beastlord
AB Server

recoil silverclaws

The single target aura/paragon aa would be interesting but imo aura atm and every paragon aa before it and after paragon has been lacking and should at least be fixed. Here is why.

I had a nice conversation with some of my guild mates and came up with this little bit of info to add to haka's great post about aura too.

To make a good argument we have to consider the average cost of spells at the 75th range verses the 60th, and howthe increase between the the two levels and here best spells. Let me show you what i mean. For analusis purpos's i will use the wizy spells by popular demand from my guild's wizys these are the two most used spells for best dps/mana useg for a wiz at both levels.

Level 75 Sothgar's Flame Rk2.
1024 mana for 5089 damage

level 60 Garrison's Superior Sundering
480 mana for 2,000 damage

take a look at the damage potential then of the average mana pools usen hak's data

10,316 mana pool = 10.46 casts of sothgar for 51.254 damage
3,050 mana pool = 7 casts of GSS for 14,000 damage

adding in the paragon/aura to the both

11,156 mana = 11.31 casts of sothgar for 55,419
3,530 mana = 7.35 casts for 14,700

the the gains from the two aura/paragon

Aura of spirit = 140 mana per tick for 6 ticks, or 840 mana
paragon = 80 mana a tick for 6 ticks, or 480 mana

Now usen this info plugin in the numbers you gain 1 full cast of the lvl 60 GSS spell during that time useing paragon but when a beast use's aura at lvl 75 curently a wiz would only gain mana for about 0.85 cast's of sothgar's. Doawngrade anyone? this is not even showing the aa spent for the amount gained ether but that is another story, but if they see this and revamp the line to be more inline i dont think anyone would mind the aa we have allready spent on it when it was going down hill lol.

I can not take credit for this info btw all this was done by members of my guild im just bringing it to the forum for all to see and hopfuly give tast some info to bring to the peaple that need to see it.
-Elder Recoil Rahl-
    -- of ctv --
a prexus guild
         and
-Hissar Spits-
   --of twinky alts-r-us--

hokarz

A single group, paragon type spell/ability that's TGB'able and has mana/hitpoint and endurance regen. It would add some raid utility to us and give us some flexibilty with our rake disc. At least it would help get that warrior back on his feet after he dies and has to wait for the rez affects to fade before the ooc endurance regen kicks in.
Savage Lord Hokarz

Pakratz

First off, I appreciate you throwing out things to discuss Tast, gives us some hope that ppl are listening.

Personally I would only like the idea of single target Paragon if it provides 50% or more mana (ie 6k).  In a raid, even our weak sauce Aura gives out 6500 mana if theres 8 clerics present.  Then you'd have the issue of figuring out who to hit else risk wasting some of the benefit on a cleric who's at 75% already.  It would pretty much make our MGB useless as well (except for SA which can be done by 1 BL).  In group and solo, a 6k single target mana blast would be a nice boost over our current Aura.

Since I'm all about raid utility, I'd have to No vote it if it's under 6k/50% but wouldn't be upset if it did get approved.  I just don't see this being an important utility that will make BL more desirable on raids.


About a year ago you mentioned the idea of a /pet shield utility, the ability of our warder to guard another character.  Seemed like a great idea, did that get pitched to developers?

hakaaba

who cares about MGB? It *Should* be almost exclusively used for buffs since it was intended for that purpose anyway

Arch Animist of Bertox (Saryrn (Mithaniel Marr))