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Recent Fero Parses

Started by Inphared, April 28, 2007, 01:29:05 AM

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Urim

Quoteand over the next few weeks we'll be testing this higher-attack-more-backstab theory on several burn-type mobs

Logging special burn-type mobs in a raid setting won't prove anything really. The rogue will have numerous other effects taking place while burning (shaman champion, bard songs, berzerker warcry, discs, etc) as well as all the random little things that can and often do occur during these types of events.

For any parsing to accurately give us a picture if it does (or doesn't as I claim) help them with any meaningful boost to their melee it will take extensive non-raid parsing.  It will have to be conducted for hours and hours without ferocity and hours and hours with ferocity to even come close to being outside the margin of error for parsing.

I applaud you for trying but parsing like that will all be in vain as we can throw dead rangers through the holes it creates.
Maelin Starpyre
[80 Arch Animist] Urim the Library Guardian (Iksar) <Crimson Tempest>

'Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity'

Inphared

This is part of the problem, I think.

No one on either side has even decided to test the problem. Rogues automatically claim it does, while we automatically claim it doesn't. There's no willingness to actually try and figure it out. I'm just stepping up to try and find some middle ground, when no one else has, and if that middle ground is a bit foggy, so be it. It's better than nothing.

I will definately be testing this during Beta, as that provides the optimal setting with buffs and such. But for right now, it's basically the only standard to go by. Maybe I'll limit my data to just one or two mobs. Something like Ur-Floxiz and Veldyn. But it's all we've got at this point.

(No, this isn't a flame against Urim or anyone else)

Khauruk

#32
I'm not sure we actually need to do any new parsing...if somebody has time to get a series of rogue parses at various attack levels (since attack is the variable here, not something specific to Ferocity), and look through them, it should be pretty obvious if attack scales up their double/triple backstab.

edit:  All with max double/triple backstab AAs, of course (I'm not sure just what rogues get for that).
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Urim

As i said before, i applaud you for attempting to do parsing on this subject. However, the way in which you are planning on doing it won't be foggy ... it will be muddy. In the end, despite what your results show, the other side will have a legitimate claim against it due to the parsing manner. If your results show atk does give a boost, bsts like me will claim the parse was insufficient due to parsing mechanics and vice versa.

No reliable parse can be done on a raid. There are just too many variables that you cannot account even with the best attempts.

Best option (and only reliable one) would be to wait til beta and do EXTENSIVE parses, like overnight parses with a rogue that can put backstab on a macro or something so they don't have to sit there. Or if you have an inside line with devs, ask for you and your rogue friend to get copied to test where the parse mobs in arena are up all the time.

In the end, Im sure the result will show that atk helps a double backstab land the same that atk helps a regular melee hit to land. And that has been shown to have extremely low benefits past 2k attack or so.
Maelin Starpyre
[80 Arch Animist] Urim the Library Guardian (Iksar) <Crimson Tempest>

'Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity'

Inphared

Quote from: Urim on May 05, 2007, 09:08:15 AM
There are just too many variables that you cannot account even with the best attempts.

This isn't going to be as in depth as you think it's going to be. I'm not measuring raw DPS numbers. I'm measuring the amount of backstabs. All that's involved is finding the rogue's attack value before the fight (when he's all buffed up), and finding out how many times he double or tripple BS'd. That's all it will be. That's all I would be looking for in a Beta test. That's what they claim, so that's what I'm testing. It's not about the raw DPS.

And, the rogue I will be using is always in the same group, so the chance for change is minimal, at best.

Khauruk

The test/beta dummies are certainly the best option available to us.  That said, it is doable if you can get parses from all max-AA rogues with consistent attack levels throughout the parse.

Hell, just do 2 parses (3 x Fero duration each)...one at X attack, and one at X + 500ish.  Or one naked and one with all worn gear.  We don't care about the pure dps upgrade right now, just to prove/disprove this mechanic.  If 500+ attack doesn't show a difference in double/triple backstab sizeable enough that it's distinguishable (despite the low statistical confidence of the data) w/in 3 10 minute parses, I'd call it all bupkus and say they're clueless.  If it's not distinguishable, Ferocity certainly won't be worth the mana to cast on the rogues.

Quote from: Urim on May 05, 2007, 09:08:15 AM
In the end, Im sure the result will show that atk helps a double backstab land the same that atk helps a regular melee hit to land. And that has been shown to have extremely low benefits past 2k attack or so.

So nobody misunderstands, attack has nothing to do w/ an attack actually landing (i.e. accuracy), but the damage amount it lands for.
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Nusa

No, don't waste time on a naked test. I don't think anyone would deny that Fero is useful on rogues that are below their attack caps. What we need to know is exactly how useful attack is on rogues that are already over their caps with normal gear and buffs.

Khauruk

Quote from: Nusa on May 05, 2007, 05:46:24 PM
No, don't waste time on a naked test. I don't think anyone would deny that Fero is useful on rogues that are below their attack caps. What we need to know is exactly how useful attack is on rogues that are already over their caps with normal gear and buffs.

Inphared is looking to prove one assertion about rogues and attack, not necessarily dps potential of Ferocity buffs. 

The easiest way to get the large spread that would (imo, need) to occur is to do one test naked, and one test w/ attack buffed to the gills.  If there's a sizeable increase in double/triple backstab, then it's worth further parsing.  If not, less time wasted.

Why do a very time consuming refined test when a couple short/simple parses should be able to give us a pretty good idea if they're talking out their but-tocks, or not?
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Urim

Quote from: Khauruk
Quote from: Urim
In the end, Im sure the result will show that atk helps a double backstab land the same that atk helps a regular melee hit to land. And that has been shown to have extremely low benefits past 2k attack or so.

So nobody misunderstands, attack has nothing to do w/ an attack actually landing (i.e. accuracy), but the damage amount it lands for.
Sorry, I should have put a smiley face or something at the end of that statement. I was being a bit of tongue-in-cheek in that i don't think it affects backstabs landing at all because it doesn't affect melee landing at all.
Maelin Starpyre
[80 Arch Animist] Urim the Library Guardian (Iksar) <Crimson Tempest>

'Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity'

Bumkus

I ran some tests on myself to get a sense of what Fero does on a mid range bst.

Ran same buffless test 2 times, and a Fero rnk II test 1 time

Basically averaging my buffless samples and comparing against a 50 minute fero test, I saw an increase from 196 to 206, or 10 DPS.  this is lower than the 11-12 DPS others have reported, but seems in line with normal margin of error.

One thing I noticed was a big variance in proc DPS, but note that there is a much smaller sample of 'hits' on proc, versus melee hits.  Backstab samples would also be much smaller, so Rogues would have to run some enormously long samples to see what effect Fero has on Backstab rates.


Parse info below.
------------------------------------------------------------
5/6/07

Exterminator Sutton Parses:

1.a  25 minutes, No buffs. ATK - 1852:
Total DPS - 218
Proc DPS - 16.5 (11.5 base + 5 DPS crit proc)
Reposte DPS -  3 (Parsed separately, 15 min, and suptracted out.  AA's through "Double Resposte" rank 3)
Melee hits - 2706
Proc hits - 211
Baseline Melee DPS 218 - 16.5 - 3 = 198.5

1.b  25 minutes, No buffs. ATK - 1852:  (This is retest of No buff test above)
Total DPS - 218.5
Proc DPS - 22.3 (14.5 base + 8 DPS crit proc)
Reposte DPS -  3 (Parsed separately, 15 min, and suptracted out.  AA's through "Double Resposte" rank 3)
Melee hits - 1955
Proc hits - 160
Baseline Melee DPS 218 - 16.5 - 3 = 193.5


2. 50 minutes, Ruthless Ferocity Rnk II, ATK - 2166:
Total DPS - 230
Proc DPS - 21 (15 base + 5.5 DPS crit proc)
Reposte DPS -  3 (Parsed separately, 15 min, and suptracted out.  AA's through "Double Resposte" rank 3)
Melee hits - 4385
Proc hits - 432
Baseline Melee DPS 230 - 21 - 3 = 206


Personal Stats for reference:
1129 AA's

Defensive:
Dodge III
Avoidence - 40
Shileding - 5

Offensive:
Fero II
Cleave V
Accuracy - 6
Strikethrough - 15
Combat Effects - 3

Primary:
Soulskyve - 21 Delay/26 Damage, Piercer
Life Sap III
Life Sap II

Secondary:
Epic 1.5 - 22 Delay/26 Damage, 1hB
Life Sap I
Vampire Kiss



Humlaine

if you actually dig around the EQ live boards, wycca posted a great parse about fero and its affects *note* this is with the current fero, and if I remember correctly it was only like a 10-13 dps increase total

Khauruk

Quote from: Humlaine on May 07, 2007, 06:05:13 AM
if you actually dig around the EQ live boards, wycca posted a great parse about fero and its affects *note* this is with the current fero, and if I remember correctly it was only like a 10-13 dps increase total

TSS Beta boards, tho
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Grbage

Bumkus-That looks about right because you are below the attk softcap when unbuffed, this is the area in which fero gives the most return. Once above the softcap it has rapidly diminishing returns. Tastian parsed our softcap at 2k, rangers/monks parsed theirs it at 2.2k. Do the same parse but snag a ranger to buff your attk first then slap a fero on top of that and see what happens.
Grbage Heep
85 Beast of Torv

Chasom

QuoteThe easiest way to get the large spread that would (imo, need) to occur is to do one test naked, and one test w/ attack buffed to the gills.
Just as long as you don't change their worn ferocity.

Khauruk

Quote from: Chasom on May 07, 2007, 10:44:35 PM
QuoteThe easiest way to get the large spread that would (imo, need) to occur is to do one test naked, and one test w/ attack buffed to the gills.
Just as long as you don't change their worn ferocity.

Hmm...does worn Ferocity affect double/triple backstab rates?  I honestly have no clue..I want to say it likely doesn't, but wouldn't lay money on it.
TURNCOAT!!!!!