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Ferocity

Started by Humlaine, August 03, 2007, 09:29:15 PM

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Khauruk

#15
Exactly as Thor says...the higher the NPC's AC, the higher attack you need to reach a given dps level.

Rashere and Maddoc seem to be working their buttocks off to fix many of Everquest's outdated systems.  They've done a good job on many of them, and are open to suggestions for modifications to these systems.  Hence my personal curiosity to see what they have in store before we collectively start shitting down their necks to get changes made. Beta's only 2 weeks away, as you said.  Hence why I think we can wait 2 weeks to make a heavy push.

It would be good to get something formatted Lucy style for rk. I - III as an alternative, assuming their modifications are unworkable.

I'd also try to get a thread started between the different CC's in CCLand on the Eqlive forums....the Attack/AC system revamps greatly affect rangers for buffage & druids for AC debuffs as well, and affect other melee classes for impacts.  Azathool (monk CC) can also pull on large extensive parses the monkey community has done on benefits of attack, and work from Lluianae (cleric CC) and some others on figgerin' out how the formulae work.
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Bumkus

I voted to get rid of the line and make a new one.  Get rid of anything that adds stats that hit a cap.  In this case ATK and Resists.  I would not rely on sony's retuning AC to bring this spell back to life

Grbage

I voted to scrap Fero. While the devs have mentioned they are going to bump up mob AC for the next expansion there is no promise it will get bumped again the expansion after that. That would temporarily make fero useful in new content but lead to it quickly stagnating again.
Grbage Heep
85 Beast of Torv

Khauruk

Quote from: Grbage on August 06, 2007, 04:41:28 AM
While the devs have mentioned they are going to bump up mob AC for the next expansion there is no promise it will get bumped again the expansion after that.

If it works (crosses fingers), I don't see Rashere and Maddoc not continuing the AC scaling....just doesn't seem in their nature.

Dev's have mentioned that they have a base scaling template for each type of mob, and they modify them as needed to assign certain attributes.  I have a feeling that one of the scaling features will be mob AC, and that the boost will be 'automagically' generated from SoF onwards.

Either way, I'm just waiting for a reply to my message.  Hopefully they won't be too sickeningly busy w/ the FanFaire to answer 'fan mail.'
TURNCOAT!!!!!

TabarQuell

The problem that i see, is that if they bump up AC significantly, all Melee DPS is going to drop, and then while people Raiding SoF content will look to Ferocity once again to get back to the point they were at, those of us still Pre-Soltaris, are going to be left with another lackluster spell upgrade at best unless something is done about the core of the spell itself.

That and if they boost AC, and hp at the same time, we're going to end up with another 'luclin-style' expansion in regards to cleaning trash and taking down mobs.
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Shamno

Lets also not mention what the higher AC is goign to do to the continued problem of pet scaling in terms of DPS, while still also having problems with surviability.

Simply put higher AC mobs to solve the problem of one spell only causes more problems elsewhere and is a bandaid (temporary) fix to an over all problem in the system already.

Humlaine

shamano hit it on the head, I really dont want to see dev's raise AC on mobs again they did it with solteris, if they boost it much more it will see more diminishing returns in our class, then  it will benefit us in the long term, and it doesn't fix the issues with people who are not in SoF

Grbage

I don't think they are raising AC just so Fero will have a use. More then likely they want to raise AC to scale back the massive DPS raid melee are currently doing. Unfortunatly, this will hurt casuals due to the lack of weapon upgrades and pets unless they fix those issues too.
Grbage Heep
85 Beast of Torv

Humlaine

+500 attack, +20 CE ( overcap ) , 7% chance to resist incoming detrimental spells, and +500 endurance ( stacks with shaman Stam line , this is the current change for the single cast version of Fero that I am working on atm

Sikkem

I thought the majority wanted Accuracy added to Fero not CE?

Also if we push to get fero changed to an aura then we have to push to get changed into a dps class as well, like zerkers with a pet.

Is that what the majority wish?


Sikkem - 90 Beastlord - Bertox

Humlaine

why would we have to be changed into a pure melee class? only 3 classes in the game do not have aura's  rangers / bst / Sk's

Shamno

Quote from: Grbage on August 06, 2007, 05:15:08 PM
I don't think they are raising AC just so Fero will have a use. More then likely they want to raise AC to scale back the massive DPS raid melee are currently doing. Unfortunatly, this will hurt casuals due to the lack of weapon upgrades and pets unless they fix those issues too.

Well I know it isn't jsut to give fero a use anymore, but it is to help return use from alot of the attack buffs out there now and days. Predator, hunter, SV, and the like as well. Don't think they are as keen to stump melee DPS growth at all. Too many big voices behind those classes.

The attack spells will work to raise peoples DPS back up, but will only do that till you get to the next wall of attack versus AC. You simply run into the same problem again later down the road that you got now.

As I also stated this does not help us in portions related to our already growing pet scaling issues.

They system probably needs a revamp for scaling issues or a total replacement. Revamp for a bigger band aid till a better system can be put in place.

Sikkem

#27
Quote from: Humlaine on August 06, 2007, 09:59:00 PM
why would we have to be changed into a pure melee class? only 3 classes in the game do not have aura's  rangers / bst / Sk's

Firstly I did not say a pure melee class I  said a dps class.

The majority voted that they wish an aura.. The major reason given was so that that would get them a slot in the dps group. Therefore it follows that the majority posting see beastlords as a dps class and not a utility class. Considering I see posts that have monks, rogues, zerkers, rangers and even warriors returning higher dps figures it is logical to assume that for us to be a dps class and thus warrant a spot in the dps group we would need our dps upped.

Or do you believe we should just be a in the dps group ahead of a more dps oriented class because we have an aura and thus being in the dps group pads our numbers? Isn't this what we have been accusing rogues of doing when they request the current fero, making their attack number bigger and padding there own dps figures at the cost of our mana?

Don't get me wrong if the devs decided to stop giving us any more utility as such and concentrated on upping our dps I would be fine because at least then we would have a direction. But considering most agree we do okay in the group game and it is the raid game where we have major shortcomings, I fail to see any advantages of an aura over a group spell to help a raid out.

Just my 2c but leave it as it is atm just have the current spells changed to group spells (leaving the same mana cost) and see how it pans out. Buffing a normal dps grp we would go from adding say 15dps for 900 odd mana to adding say 60 dps for 900 odd mana. Plus our dps would increase as we would only have to cast it every 8 mins. Plus I see no real reason why the devs could not do this change prior to the next expansion and we could use the beta to maybe get and upgrade with a mod added.


Sikkem - 90 Beastlord - Bertox

Khauruk

I think that what they're getting at w/ the aura for raids is a dps group support slot.

The usual 'best' dps group makeup is
Bard
Shaman
Zerker
Monk
2 x zerker/rogue

Bards are obviously in short supply, so they're hoping to take that slot, I assume.  So, imo, this would make us a second fiddle type dps group supporter.  We sure can't replace shamans, as we are woefully inadequate to fill a group healing role in comparison.

In a group setting, aura Ferocity would be great.  Raids however...I think it'll end up seriously lackluster.

And can somebody please explain to me why in the heck anybody would want Combat Effects on Ferocity /boggle!  I have listed several of the many reasons why it's a horrible choice, which nobody has countered, and for the life of me can't think of a single reason that a Zerker/Rogue/Monk would possibly want it (and several reasons why they wouldn't).
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Khauruk

Quote from: Humlaine on August 07, 2007, 01:53:35 AM
lets see, procs = more damage
Weapon procs make up a very small %age of dps for almost every single class in the game. Procs are also insane agro in relation to their dps addition (see below for more on agro)
oh ya a bulk of our own dps is from proc's
We are an abberation, due to our low double attack and single dps discipline.  Also, in current top end content, there are no boomsticks.  Heck, the TSS boomsticks don't hold a candle to TBS weaponry.  If we want something to increase proc dps for ourselves (and possibly curse us by relying on boomsticks forever for good dps), let's try to put together a self buff, akin to the Bard buff suggested by Kroe (iirc)
CE is beneficial to all melee classes
False.  Many zerkers avoid procs like the plague.  Melee dps classes are only starting to get procs again, as +DMG augs with procs are being rolled into the game.  The proc has nothing to do with their choice of aug - it's the +DMG part that matters for their dps.  The dps addition from a proc is miniscule, and further reduced when they're chaining disciplines.
Accuracy wont stack with rangers auspice line so thats out of the question
Auspice is a short term buff.  An accuracy component could be coded so that it is in a different slot than Auspice's, allowing buff stacking.  The more potent of the two would win out.  So, auspice would take precedence when it's cast, and Ferocity would take effect again when Auspice fades.
only reaoson I can see why people wouldnt want CE would be if they have aggro issues
BINGO!!

A) Warriors are being moved away from warrior specific high agro proc weaponry, and being given generic agro proc shite (Hi CS IV!) along with other melee classes.  Warrior agro is also usually a shaky thing lately, and hasn't been climbing to match dps class agro for a while now.  TSS guilds also suffer horrid drop rates on agro weaponry, for which there is far more competition nowadays.  Lassitude and Skin of the Reptile can reduce agro in some instances.  There have been no new agro clickies since Plane of Time.  Now that mobs are starting to hit like Mack Trucks again, Warriors are needing to spend much time shielded, reducing agro drastically.  Encounters increasingly use agro-reducing mechanisms (AE FDs, etc,....).  The Haste Rounding bug also reduced warrior agro in comparison to other melee classes


B) Zerkers are screwed for agro.  Their agro is insane, and their deagro ability is simply insufficient.  On top of that, at least one of their best weapons has THE BEST agro proc in the game (Rune V).  Rangers are often riding high on the wave of agro again as well, not being helped by the generic dps class weapons that almost all seem to have Chaotic Strike procs on them.

Increasing melee dps agro relative to warriors is simply a wildly unwise choice right now.
  If we're going to get a change to Ferocity, let's get something that we can cast for all raid encounters, for all dps classes, without screwing over the raid.
but they gonna revamp the other fero's we already have so just give one of the lesser ones to them
Developer quote please!
TURNCOAT!!!!!