Per Prathun's request at FF, spells parent classes have that the hybrids should

[Khauruk]

and one from the Shamans board

http://crucible.samanna.net/viewtopic.php?t=3887&highlight=cripple

That's decent, and up to date.  It only tests one facet of the debuff though - the STR portion (so, the attack debuff portion).

Better discussion at: http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10240&highlight=cripple  Yakk even chimes in on the statists side of it all (confidence level of the parses, etc,....)

A good test would be MPG 6 way, first vs. ukuns - they seem to proc chaos claws more than any other mob.  Do a half hour or so crippled/not (our cripple won't work, sadly...no -dex portion) and count the number of attempted procs.  Second would be against a lightning diodite dude...count the flurries (the -agi portion of the cripple line).  I can do the first portion (not crippled)....though I don't know if my druid's mana will hold out that long...probably not.  But, I can succour, med up, and reengage the same mob.  I just need to try and find an enc/shm who'll come and cripple the mob for me for the second round.

Edit - the captcha on therunes.net defeated me!  Guess I'll have to wait to register again and try to get something set up.

[Kitathia]

Meep.

IF we even get to have and Shaman tablescraps in form of spells.. WHY ask for something as useless as group shrink? I'm sorry personally think that would be a waste. Yeah you potentially have to cast shrink X2 on 6 ppl in the group so what? It takes hardly any mana - all it is, is inconvient. /shrug

There are so many things ppl can buy/farm/make that will shrink you. Most raiding guilds expect players to be able to selfshrink.


Malo, cripple, slow, panther are some of the most useful offensive spells shamans get.

We don't have a malo as a beastlord, which is a shame since MAYBE some of our dots/nukes/slow might actually have a bigger chance of landing if we did. I doubt we would get one since it's a pure mage/shm spell line.

Cripple-line is something we were given, but then I think they forgot we had it and didn't upgrade it for us. I only used it ( Incapacitate) before I got Bite of the Empress to hold agro. Incapacitate just sucks. An upgrade would be useful.

Slow - the biggest thing I would like to see upgraded really. 70 Sha's is ok, but most mobs conning DB and up just starts to laugh when I cast it. Even when grouped with shm/chanter I pre-slow with it. Take Steeltrap Jaw and toss it.. and give US a spell with same properties as that pet-proc ( except let it last more ticks) Or jsut give us a better slow.

Panterline is unique to the shamans, however I would like it.. even if they made it self only.

Canni - Not gonna happen and it shouldn't. We aren't shamans.

Cures - well we were giving some poison/disease cures (WAY late) - would be nice with a late Nadox cure. I understand if they don't want us to get a pure Remove Greater Curse cures, but it would be nice with just a remove curse.

Regen, well I don't really care about that one too much. I don't use Feral Guard unless some desperate necro ask for it, cause he can't get a decent regen anywhere else..... I don't know if I would use an upgrade either to be honest.

Haste upgrade ( group preferably) Would be nice, but again.  I rarely even have the one we have now memmed. I rather hand whomever want haste a stack of hastepots. I might use group haste.

Invis - FIXED invis is another thing I would LOVE to see us get. Very USEFUL!

I don't know much about monk. I have a 53 level one so not much to compare too. However I would like to see beast get a new offensive and defensive disc. We didn't get a sinlge Disc in both TSS and TBS. I use Rake a lot and thought it was a decent disc, til I saw the DPS from some of the eqivilent monk disc.. then I just felt really gimp. I don't really see Beastlords getting a whole lot of their "Monk parents" -except we compete with monks for weapons and armor. So adding some "monkness" might be nice instead of  a lot of buff type requests. I don't want to be a fourth rate shaman wannabie.

KitKat

[Grbage]

Canni - Not gonna happen and it shouldn't. We aren't shamans.

I agree and disagree. I agree we currently don't need canni but if they start giving us a bunch of shammy spells to cast we will end up needing it.

The mana cost of shaman spells are balanced around the ability to canni, making them a bit to expensive to use for us. That was the main reason I never used Incapacitate a lot at lower levels, it was more mana effecient for me to not cast it. By the time I had enough mana regen to cast it every mob it was only useful for agro.

[Kitathia]

True :)

However I doubt we will get a LOT of shaman spells.  If we get any. I just hope that we get some that are useful, not just fluff to blow a little smoke up our beastie butts.

KitKat

[TabarQuell]

Monk Discs...

Innerflame is their best overall offensive Disc, it is exactly the same as Bestial Fury.

Empathic Fury beats Innerflame by adding +100% to crit chance, and tags both master and pet.

The other discs they get are ones based around their special attack (scaledfist, heel of kanji) and only boost the attack rate or damage of those.

Defensive wise, you have Pro. Spirit and Impenetrable, with the same mitigation effect.  the difference being monk disc has stun resistance and a 5-7 effect block recourse.

Monk combat skills compared to ours is ridiculous.

CSF rk. II = 3x Skill attack (300) to Rake = 3x Skill Attack (65)

So to fuel more discs from the monk 'parent' we'd need to get some special attacks.

to fuel upgrades would require sony to stop neglecting us which is tough to do, unless we make a lot of noise with a lot of stuff to back it up, so push for everything in beta, ya never know what you might end up with, but it's gotta be better than if you did nothing at all.

[Khauruk]

Innerflame is their best overall offensive Disc, it is exactly the same as Bestial Fury.

Except that it's not.  Speedfocus is.  There's also 0 chance of us getting a copy of this, and devs regret they ever created it (had no clue how powerful it'd become), and that it will never be upgraded.

Disclaimer - at lower gear levels, perhaps Innerflame is.  But, in upper gear, Speedfocus blows it out of the water.

Disciplines - I doubt we'll get a second one in next expansion, especially if our utility is upgraded.  Our dps is good atm, they won't upgrade it as far as I can see.  I think the best we'll get is the possibility for more burst potential w/ a Bite upgrade, and Cold nukes following the same lines.  Also w/ a possibility for DoTs to follow the Nature's Blazing Wrath paradigm (we would need to try hard for this, of course).  With gear moving to 1000 mana, spells like this will be necessary just to dump mana in a reasonable amount of time.

ya never know what you might end up with, but it's gotta be better than if you did nothing at all.

Not necessarily, as the monks found out with their Innerflame "upgrade" in TSS (iirc) beta

[TabarQuell]

Hmm, had to read up on speedfocus, as i did not really have any knowledge on it.

Speedfocus increases monks attack speed by 25% before haste, stacking with all forms of haste, except berzerker warcry.

on an 18 delay weapon, this means a monk could swing (with max haste/overhaste) 5 times in 3 seconds with that one weapon (not taking into account any skills/AAs)

normally it would take a monk 4 seconds to make those swings, +25% dps for 30 seconds...

Innerflame givest +100% damage for the 30 seconds, with minimum hits being boosted by 4x.

I can't imagine that +25% DPS from extra attacks would match the +100% damage from Innerflame... maybe i'm missing something?

I dunno, it seems to me IF does more, but i play a beastlord first, and a monk only to pull with in distant second.

[hakaaba]

Slow - the biggest thing I would like to see upgraded really. 70 Sha's is ok, but most mobs conning DB and up just starts to laugh when I cast it. Even when grouped with shm/chanter I pre-slow with it. Take Steeltrap Jaw and toss it.. and give US a spell with same properties as that pet-proc ( except let it last more ticks) Or jsut give us a better slow.

This isn't going to happen.  Many people don't realize this, but chanters' slow is exactly the same resist mod as ours (Sha's legacy) and shaman's is only 30 more.  Also, the percent slow is not going to get upgraded because they would then need to upgrade chanter/shaman slows' % and they are not willing to go above 75% slow for balance reasons, ever.

If steeltrap were a direct slow, we never would have gotten it since its the same % slow as a chanter slow with a HUGE resist mod (5x what a shaman gets)

[Khauruk]

Long math intensive post regarding overhaste, now-fixed-haste rounding, and how the hundred hands effect works:  http://forums.monkly-business.net/viewtopic.php?t=15147

Also (more pertinent really):
http://forums.monkly-business.net/viewtopic.php?t=16871&highlight=speedfocus
http://forums.monkly-business.net/viewtopic.php?t=16405&highlight=speedfocus

[Bumkus]

Humlaine,  have you done any PMs regarding this to Prathun? 

The feeling I get in EQ forums is that Shamans don't want any of their spells extended to bsts.  I get a sense that people would be willing to make a group version of our 50% haste, but that really doesn't advance our cause.  Not when 50% haste is available in bazaar.

[Khauruk]

Would it advance our cause?  No...but, it would be great to have.  Not every spell needs to be groundbreaking, and to be honest, the chances of us getting a groundbreaking spell out of this are about nil.  And yeah...almost all classes are jealous of "their" abilities/spells getting farmed out to anybody else.

[Bumkus]

I personally would not be satisfied if all we got was a group only haste.  Sure other classes would like to keep all their advantages, but that doesn't mean we have to roll over and act all happy about it.

[Khauruk]

It's a bone that Prathuns' willing to toss us...I'll be happy if we get anything /shrug.

[Bumkus]

It's a bone that Prathuns' willing to toss us...I'll be happy if we get anything /shrug.

bones are nice, but when you see others dining on fillets, it leaves you feeling a little empty.

[Khauruk]

I doubt that Rangers, SKs, or Paladins are going to get any fillets from this either.