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Consensus is...Bsts need teh love

Started by Romulus-Zek, August 14, 2007, 11:23:02 PM

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Romulus-Zek

Check out this thread.  http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=116683

Consensus seems to be:
1.  Enc
2.  Druid
3.  Bst

I agree with the consensus, though I think bsts bring a lot to groups (and even more to small groups of two or three) we lack a focus atm.

Discuss?

Regards,
Romulus

Rilelil

Group wise beasts are  not in bad shape on the flip side tho  we are siriously  lacking in  raid format   fero and paragon siriously lacking scaling

Khauruk

I've discussed BST issues until I'm blue in the face...but I could start w/ druid and enc ideas!  I think I do alright on those, esp. druid.
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Romulus-Zek

Quote from: Rilelil on August 15, 2007, 12:38:36 AM
Group wise beasts are  not in bad shape on the flip side tho  we are siriously  lacking in  raid format   fero and paragon siriously lacking scaling

I agree.  One suggestion was give bsts a group overhaste.  That might be ok.  Paragon I dont know what to do with it.  With ooc regen it's group utility is not much, and with the 400 hp hot it doesn't do much for raids either.  I say double the heal and tripple the amount of mana returned...and why not?  Fero...I use it for the resists...but then I'm on Zek heh.  But yeah, too many classes add too much else casting fero is kind of an exercise, not much else.

As for druids and enchanters...two of the oldest most proud classes kind of relegated to the dust bin of history.  But there again, a well played one of either class can make an average group really rock.  They need something...

Regards.

Khauruk

"Fix" or revamp Ferocity and Paragon, bump up curing again, and I think Beastlords are in fine form raid utility wise.  Increase overcap AC returns while you're at it...it's desperately needed for us and rogues (the 2 worst melees for incoming damage).

These fixes are assuming our current dps rankings and relative spell power remain consistent through lvl80 - something I am worried about (heal size and cold nukes especially).

We don't need (and won't receive) group overhaste - it would entirely change the haste progression between classes and just won't happen.

The other thing we need is to change people's mindsets about our abilities for groups.

Enchanters - not that hard to fix the class design (increase runes, change mez hardcaps to softcaps (yeah, would take a while to code), improve rune line relative to dps, add other cc options (knockback/memblur roots, etc,....), harder to fix the content.

Druids - some spell tweaks/merging lines of debuffs/extensions of current lines would put druids where they should be imo.  Main problems as I see it are speed/spell gems required to debuff, heal sizes/speed, ability to dps while group healing (change to spell cast times, plus increase fernspur size + 0.5sec cast time), boost curing/dps somewhat.  They also took a hit (along w/ sham) relative to clerics w/ ooc regen.  A few other tweaks would be nice (a role similar to shammies but as applies to casters would be great).  It would take a bit of work, but very doable.
TURNCOAT!!!!!

thor

Quote from: Khauruk on August 15, 2007, 04:03:17 AM
"Fix" or revamp Ferocity and Paragon, bump up curing again, and I think Beastlords are in fine form raid utility wise.  Increase overcap AC returns while you're at it...it's desperately needed for us and rogues (the 2 worst melees for incoming damage).

These fixes are assuming our current dps rankings and relative spell power remain consistent through lvl80 - something I am worried about (heal size and cold nukes especially).

We don't need (and won't receive) group overhaste - it would entirely change the haste progression between classes and just won't happen.

The other thing we need is to change people's mindsets about our abilities for groups.

Enchanters - not that hard to fix the class design (increase runes, change mez hardcaps to softcaps (yeah, would take a while to code), improve rune line relative to dps, add other cc options (knockback/memblur roots, etc,....), harder to fix the content.

Druids - some spell tweaks/merging lines of debuffs/extensions of current lines would put druids where they should be imo.  Main problems as I see it are speed/spell gems required to debuff, heal sizes/speed, ability to dps while group healing (change to spell cast times, plus increase fernspur size + 0.5sec cast time), boost curing/dps somewhat.  They also took a hit (along w/ sham) relative to clerics w/ ooc regen.  A few other tweaks would be nice (a role similar to shammies but as applies to casters would be great).  It would take a bit of work, but very doable.

actually i think rangers have done some parses and found that there returns on ac are 1 in 6 as well which according to a dev is what bst returns are 1 in 6 as well. although there softcaps are a bit higher i really doubt we will see  a change unless they adjust rangers returns as well

Khauruk

A) I think rangers *should* be bumped up on mitigation...to the point where they're somewhat above monks again.  That whole "4th tank" or "light tank" thing.  I also haven't looked at their parses/forums in quite a while.

B) The last parses Tastian referenced (dunno if they were his or Coprolith's), showed us at ~40:1 or something ridiculous and practically unparseable.  Maddoc says we're intended to be 6:1 - a pretty huge difference frankly.

One of my wannabe projects is to get some info from monkeys on current softcap (if they've parsed it since TSS...not sure.  We're on the same softcap as monks, btw) and hit distributions at different gradients of raw AC vs. TestBots.  From those, we should be able to work out an expected hit distribution for different levels of Beastlord AC (i.e. Monk hit distribution of softcap +200rAC should be virtually the same as BST softcap +400rAC).  This should make it easier to see if we're at or even near the expected overcap return value.

I won't be able to run any reasonable length parses (assuming I get into beta...I'll be on the road for next 1.5 weeks) during beta, but hope to have some 'expected' results.  That way if somebody is willing to do some afk parsing, we have an anticipated baseline.
TURNCOAT!!!!!

thor

took me a bit to find it but here is where i saw it http://eqoutrider.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2870&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
mentions a bit about monk softcap and returns as well

I have to admit i am shocked that monks are so much better then rangers but parses don't lie

Khauruk

For reference - monk/bst softcap = 187rAC at lvl70.

So, from that thread, (monk/bst softcap + 17 to 20) = ranger softcap (ranger = 204 to 207rAC) (at max mitigation AAs).  These are believed to have changed from 70 to 75, but only minimally.

If we have a 6:1 overcap return, then the mitigation curves between ranger w/ 300rAC and a Beastlord with slightly over 400rAC should be virtually identical (multiply by 1.47 for worn AC number) (assuming both have maximum mitigation AAs which raise the softcap).

One more dataset for comparison.

Any Beastlords on Test play here????
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Grbage

Just a gut feeling but I don't think anything has changed for bst since Tastian did defensive parses and found displayed ac of over 1800 made almost no difference in mitigation.

It came out at FF that they are going to implement the /testcopy feature so we should be able to get some people on test and start parsing for the long term and beta is firing up shortly so some testing can get done there. Who has a pocket healer that wants to parse?
Grbage Heep
85 Beast of Torv

Khauruk

Quote from: Grbage on August 15, 2007, 02:23:49 PM
Just a gut feeling but I don't think anything has changed for bst since Tastian did defensive parses and found displayed ac of over 1800 made almost no difference in mitigation.

It came out at FF that they are going to implement the /testcopy feature so we should be able to get some people on test and start parsing for the long term and beta is firing up shortly so some testing can get done there. Who has a pocket healer that wants to parse?
A) But we don't have copies of his parses, and I never saw hit distribution histograms...I'll look around some more though.

B)  You don't need a healer if you're against a testbot - you can set regen levels, HoT amounts, and for the bot to heal you at certain intervals...you may die a lot at low AC/HP levels though getting it to heal fast enough though :)!  As far as Testcopy though, that's been deconfirmed by Rashere....he's not sure if it'll be going live, and if so, when.
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Grbage

Deconfirmed? That sucks. Didn't know you could set up the test bots to heal you also. Only done some offensive parsing during beta.
Grbage Heep
85 Beast of Torv