Bst versus Monk sustained DPS parses

[Bumkus]

Humlaine,

Can you comment on the parse parameters for the Bst versus monk comparisons that Wycca has been working on?

This is in reference to xistence's class balance thread on eq forums.

Thanks

[Humlaine]

the parses of bsts were actually from me, give a little bit, and I will edit this post with the parse of bst substained dps, but knowing from monk dps ( my old main ), as for the monk parses I can't really comment on what wycca really parses, as I honestly don't know

[Bumkus]

Did you run the sustained DPS parses with the 2 poison nukes and an ice nuke?  There was some question as to whether a bst could sustain those 3 nukes for 15-20 minutes.

[Humlaine]

15-20 mins? most fights in EQ aren't even 10 anymore, I think like maybe 1-2 fights per expansion are 10 mins + and those most people have issues staying FM on, as for other fights, 7 min duration you can maintain top 3 nukes + Hatm without much concern depending on your mana pool, I Was going off of about a 17-19k mana pool on beta, on live buffed I am sitting at about 20k now, so it's not much of a concern, it becomes more of a aggro issue then anything else.

[Bumkus]

Thanks humlaine.  I think there is some confusion on EQ forums about how long we can sustain our nukes, because our nukes are being used to estabish our infinitly sustainable DPS.

I also question whether someone would indeed use nukes over say Bark/Howl at the Moon on a long duration (ie Raid) fight, due to resists, but that is a separate issue.

It sounds like monks may have indeed had their DPS held back, but I am not exactly agreeing with the method they are using to prove it.

[Fightclubx]

in an exp grind group I can sustain around 1100-1400dps, depending on how lazy I am

/G Combined: A chaotic clay guardian in 3625s, 3753k @1035dps || Fight + pets 3753k @1035dps

that was ashengate for a little while, and mostly on auto pilot cus I was bored so wasnt nuking a whole lot, just batm alot, cus even after all this time i still get giddy when I see multiple pets proc=)

[Bumkus]

I think our numbers in xp grinds will be a little inflated, because mobs typically last 30-40 seconds.  This allow 2 fires of our 30 second melee discs and/or 30 second refresh nukes.

[Shamno]

I think it might be too early with alot of the comparisons really, mainly with monks against anyone. The expansion is still early, so the end gear isn't quite there yet. Also monks long list of skills haven't been retuned too full yet. They got kick and flying kick upgraded, but I don't think Flying kick itself was well done and the abilities between haven't been revamped yet.

I will also admit that alot of fights just go one way or another that DPS just isn't steady list of class a beats class b comparisons anymore. Too me this isn't a bad thing.

[Rhoam]

I found the thread once, but cannot find it now. Can you tell me where it is? Or link it?

[Bumkus]

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=125982

This is the thread where they indicated bst were at the top of infinately sustainable DPS.  The did not actually include the parses, but Wycca gave some idea of his parse parameters.

[Humlaine]

I've already commented on the thread, basicly they are calling for a nerf to bsts and rangers, while they may not like where we are in terms of dps, is all comes down to who is playing the toon.  Most people are not consistent enough for parsing and saying hey somethings wrong here.  With that said, I don't see any real issues with dps in terms of bsts / rangers, we are better then ever, and yes they did close the gap to monk dps, it's not to the point we should out dps them every time, alot of fights are situational and we tend to do better in longer post 3 min fights.

[Grbage]

Humlaine, after reading that post and as about a high end of a bst as you can get I'm curious where you personally end up on the guild dps list during raids. Wycca is saying bst outparse monks but everyone the posted a dps list for their raids had monks ahead of bst.

[Bumkus]

I dont mind people discussing balance, but I worry about spreading misinformation.

Here is the paragraph that troubles me most:
Since you asked about how beastlords ranked, I will be blunt.  Beastlords were at the top of my 15-20min duration parses.  For indefinitely sustained, BEFORE adding in pet dps (which Humlaine parsed to be 338dps) and Feral Swipe dps (which is well over 140dps - and has a 1 mana cost), beastlords were under 13% from a warrior in sustained dps (raw melee + kick).  A monk was under 4% above a warrior in the same scenario.  Once you add in the pet and Feral Swipe values, a Beastlord shoots past the monk to the #2 indefinitely sustainable dps class.  Obviously, that isn't a complete picture, but it should be a very large - holy **Halfling** of a red flag.  In case you were curious, the bst spells I used were Jagged Torrent Rk.2, Bite of the Burrower Rk.2, Bite of the Empress Rk.1, Feral Swipe 3, and Harrow Rk.2.

First, he says his parses were run before adding in Feral Swipe, then he lists Feral swipe in the list of abilities he used in parse.

Second, he lists Feral Swipe DPS at 140.  Since this is only usable every 30 seconds, it would need to hit for an average of 4200, but I only see it hit for 1.5 - 2K

Third, he lists a spell set up which is not really sustainable, unless you have maybe 5 other bst feeding you mana.

And forth, this nuke selection would result in a resist rate that would make it undesirable in real-game scenarios.

I've already seen someone post in an unrelated thread that BST are outparsing everyone, so I am afraid if we don't address the lingering questions, then the public at large will accept these parses as Gospel.

Bst is not overpowered at the moment.  We are doing ok, but not overly so.  I do not want to go back into another 3 year downcycle, because of a false perception.

[Humlaine]

In reality wycca is correct on what he says, but speaking on what he's said, me and him both have the parses, our dps is actually higher when you add in our activated abilities.  Monks dps sloap is greatly dependent about group set up, and disc position in a raid setting, while ours is more or less go and do things when you choose.  I think the balance is fine as does a couple of other people who rashere had parse for him.  It really boils down is where SoE wants our class to be at.  I don't think we are in a bad spot nor do I forsee any nerfs happening. 

As for for the spell set up, I was the one using that spell set up, and yes it can be done ( and no I don't have the biggest mana pool in bsts either ) granted my gear and armor have alot to do with it, the parses were looking at potential and a few other various factors in there.  As for our pet dps, I find my warder actually doing closer to 380-420 dps on raids now fully raid buffed ( this is including BP clicks and various other aa's tossed in there along with discs ).

Our class has really developed into a well rounded machine, granted our tanking ability is horrible this expansion, in terms of how we are , this is the best we've been since luclin in my opinion

[Nusa]

The biggest discrepancy seems to be on "infinitely sustainable" comments by Wycca (claiming you said so, so it must be true), versus your response to the query above that fights don't last more than 10 minutes and your mana pool will last that long (which may be true, but that is a VERY different statement than what Wycca is saying). The mana-flow math simply doesn't work on a forever basis.