Bst versus Monk sustained DPS parses

[Rabekiz]

I love the fact that their whole arguement is based on the fact that we are hybrids and therefore cant do their level of DPS. The classification of hybrid died long ago. We do spell damage and melee damage, why should the combination be lower then a monks? Monks problem is that they have always been in the DPS group and always counted bard/shammy/zerker enhancements as their own DPS, enhancements that arent avaiable in the sustained DPS mode comparisons. Lo and behold when you remove those enhancements, they fall to the "lowly" DPS of a hybrid who was never put in the raid DPS group. Looks like the classes are balanced to me.

[Rabekiz]

Agree we are in great shape with SoF.  There are still fights (not necessarily in SoF) where we are hampered by spell resists (something monks dont ever have to deal with). Sothgar comes to mind. Cant land a poison nuke on him to save my life.

[Grbage]

The biggest discrepancy seems to be on "infinitely sustainable" comments by Wycca (claiming you said so, so it must be true), versus your response to the query above that fights don't last more than 10 minutes and your mana pool will last that long (which may be true, but that is a VERY different statement than what Wycca is saying). The mana-flow math simply doesn't work on a forever basis.

Actually I would like to look at the parses but I do believe over a long period of time, when just factoring in melee, we probably fall off less then the other melee classes outside of rangers. The devs have really tied a lot of classes to their endurance bar plus disc for doing dps. With no disc up and out of endurance their dps really falls off. In this case, because our damage is broken into three different types we don't do nearly as much damage using the yellow bar.

I hear monks, zerkers and rogues on a regular basis complaining about running out of endurance and needing to med while I'm standing there waiting for the next pull.

[Humlaine]

I agree, the mana situation really plays down into how your geared and auged , wycca stating that we can keep that forever is just bogus.  The fact is when using a 1k mana nuke, a 780 mana nuke and a almost 400 mana nuke despite how much mana regen you have you wont last 20+ mins with that running and chain casting it, I know because I've tried...lol.  Either way , I don't see us really need to involve ourself's or point out things where it's not needed. That thread is something we can all laugh about because we know better and so does the dev.

[Rabekiz]

They run out of endurance because they are chain casting every endurance using skill they can. Lacking a mana bar, they've never bothered to figure out how to fight efficiently. Those classes have always been focused on burst DPS for OMG leet #s, efficiency is a foreign word to them. Its akin to us blasting away with Howl and 5 nukes in a group setting and then gasping outloud when we have to med every 5th pull.

[Khauruk]

They run out of endurance because they are chain casting every endurance using skill they can. Lacking a mana bar, they've never bothered to figure out how to fight efficiently. Those classes have always been focused on burst DPS for OMG leet #s, efficiency is a foreign word to them. Its akin to us blasting away with Howl and 5 nukes in a group setting and then gasping outloud when we have to med every 5th pull.

In a raid setting, efficiency is detrimental to their total damage done - they rely upon a nice combo of shaman, berzerker, ranger, rogue(iirc), and bard (4 of those w/ very short term abilities) to put out big numbers.  Warcry, shammy epic, ranger auspice, and rogue (iirc) accuracy buff make their speedfocus discipline beyond powerful.  If they wait until those are gone, their overall damage done will be drastically downgraded.

As far as group setting, their endurance based short discs (Clawstrikers, etc) have been getting seriously mana hungry over the past few expansions...esp. if they don't have the end. regen AAs, it doesn't take too long for a monk to go ooe nowadays.

They certainly should be more efficient in a group setting - it's not worthwhile for a group to med just for the monk to get more endurance.  But, that's a bad strategy for raids.

[Rabekiz]

Thats exactly the problem khauruk, they are simply unwilling to shift play styles betweens raids and group settings, they still click their skills as fast as they cycle. We could do the same with our nukes and we'd be OOM just as fast as they are OOE.

I find Wycca's whole argument of limited value since he claims non-burn DPS for a monk is only 4% more damage then a warrior (note he refuses to post the parses). Higher attack, higher triple attack skill, better damage table and they only get 4% more damage??? Please. Shall we also consider that the monk is also more likely to have a better damage aug combo on his weapons then the warrior who is stuck with aggro augs that are probably chaotic strike. Based on years grouping with the same monk and warrior, I'd say the number is closer to 20-30% more DPS for the monk.

BTW my parse of feral swipe 3 says its closer to 66 DPS. Non crit, non disc, self buffed average hits are less then 2K.

[Bumkus]

BTW my parse of feral swipe 3 says its closer to 66 DPS. Non crit, non disc, self buffed average hits are less then 2K.

Thank you Rabekiz.  66 DPS makes muck more sense to me.  I'm not sure where the 140 DPS number comes from.

[Grbage]

BTW my parse of feral swipe 3 says its closer to 66 DPS. Non crit, non disc, self buffed average hits are less then 2K.

Thank you Rabekiz.  66 DPS makes muck more sense to me.  I'm not sure where the 140 DPS number comes from.

Wouldn't be suprised 140dps figure comes from calculating out theoretical maximum damage.

Got a good chuckle, one of the main monk complainers posted in another thread:

Granted  we havn't had any TSS weapons for monks yet Nor obviously any TBS weapons.

So people with better weapons are outdamaging him and the other monks in his guild. Go figure.

[Shieara]

I read the thread but.../shrug.

The beastlord setup didn't look realistic to me, but I am not high-end.  We just broke into Demi before Christmas.  I'd be oom very fast with that, and on raids I tend to run the swarm pet and growl instead of nukes.

Monks getting boosted though is fine with me...I group with friends so it's not like I am competing with them for groups.

[Rabekiz]

Non-disc I've gotten a few around 5K but those are very,very rare. Even 4K every 30 seconds only works out to 133 DPS, damn wish it did that much.

Only have 1 active zerker in our guild and they dont raid much so I've never gotten to test it out but I'd reckon with the right set up we can break 10K with feral swipe - once in a blue moon. Monks are on the record as going over 23K max hit with their clawstriker's fury (of course its DPS is no where near 23K/30 seconds - which would be around 760 DPS).

For Shieara, try loading up 3 nukes for your next ZT and Tris fight and cycling them on top of swarm pet and puma. You shouldnt go OOM on Tris as the fight doesnt last long enough. The goal is to run out of mana right as the boss dies. That's about as much DPS as you can possibley put out. I normally run puma, swarm, 3 ice and 2 poison nukes (about 15500 mana) and Ive only run OOM once. The normal barrier I run into is over-aggro (especially with a couple of 8K nuke crits), roar of thunder doesnt cycle fast enough so I throttle back some after using it the first time.

[Khauruk]

I'll have to turn on logging tonight/tomorrow and see for myself.

I remember Tastian parsed Feral Swipe rank 2 at 60 dps when the upgrade went live.  Looking at Lucy, the damage should be approximately doubling from rank 2 to 3 as well (rk I/II/III are Skill attack (100/200/400) respectively.  That would be 120dps.  Drop that a bit for lower end Beastlords to account for higher mob AC/player atk ratio, and we're still probably over 100dps.

The overall parse condition may not be realistic - 20 min of those spells sustained would be hard for anybody outside of the Vish encounter.

Thats exactly the problem khauruk, they are simply unwilling to shift play styles betweens raids and group settings, they still click their skills as fast as they cycle. We could do the same with our nukes and we'd be OOM just as fast as they are OOE.

Monk discs have steadily become a greater part of their dps, and absolutely required for pulling most content.  Mez is 813 end, eye of zomm disc is 800, lull is 438, and wheel of fists is 316.  Those, plus some occasional use of defensive discs when needed, and a group/lower raiding monk will run ooe very fast, even without using any of their melee damage disciplines (whose endurance cost has scaled drastically across all classes for the past few expansions).

I'm not saying Wycca's parses are an accurate representation of the facts - they sound a bit funny.  I have faith however that Maddoc will see through any potential BS/poor methodology.  And any way you look at it, I don't think anybody can say a properly geared beastlord is poor dps anymore - now we just need to get our non-paragon utility fixed, a tad more mitigation, better deagro, and we're golden.

Oh, and nuke crits are the exact same agro as the base nuke.

[Rabekiz]

 Drop that a bit for lower end Beastlords to account for higher mob AC/player atk ratio, and we're still probably over 100dps.

Except we all hit the same attack cap with anguish armor. Barring any clickies, which were excluded in this comparison, the attack of a solteris geared beast is the same as a anguish geared beast.

100 DPS requires it to hit for an average of 3K, thats well over half of its max hit and so mathematically its very suspect especially since you can hit for 0 damage. The majority of my hits fall between 800 and 2900.

Pulling, I'll agree, puts a huge strain on their endurance. However, this is a straight up melee comparison, in fact the monks are specifically downplaying their ability to pull throughout the entire post. The failure of their whole argument is that no one has ever constructed a viable comparison for the utility all classes bring to a raid. Straight DPS comparisons are flawed because every single class brings some form of utility to a raid.

I think most of us can just chuckle over the whole thing, we've been slandered for years as a subpar DPS class that was unwanted at raid except for a single buff. Now suddenly people are noticing that this view is flawed (in fact we do excellent DPS if played correctly). Rangers and beastlords are in fact viable DPS classes at a raid.

[Khauruk]

in fact the monks are specifically downplaying their ability to pull throughout the entire post.

After the first few posts, I only read those from Wycca, and Bumkus(?), and the different CCs.  I found the OP and just about everybody else to be worthless wastes of my time, and not worth reading.

Real dps?  As I said, I dunno - I have all hits in a narrow window just as numbers only.  I need to log to see even it's max hit.

I like the gains we've made, now I just wish I had time to raid again.

[Otuol]

granted our tanking ability is horrible this expansion

So have you mentioned this to the devs? If so, what did you provide for info and what did they have to say about it?  Because you are right, our tanking sucks in this expansion.