Growl of the Puma

[Adruger]

How much extra DPS do you find this adds?  By the numbers it should add signicantly compared to the cast time, but one of the beasts was complaining it was to long to bother with.  So looking for some concrete numbers to give them.

I run parses, but I don't use this spell enough overall to give solid real world numbers on its effects.

[Nusa]

For DPS purposes, Growl of the Panther gives the same improvement with much better mana efficiency. And since it's most beneficial on longer fights, mana efficiency actually matters somewhat. Of course, the first minute is almost free, since you can have it up before the fight starts.

I'm betting your friend who is complaining doesn't have a decent beneficial cast time focus (Panther needs a much lower focus than Puma, btw!). It would be annoying to spend 3 whole seconds on the cast, but I don't. And yes, whatever time you spend on casting is dps you aren't doing another way....but your pet's dps isn't lost during the cast, and it's his dps you're boosting too!

If you haven't figured it out, I still use Panther in raids. I'll bring out Puma for the hp and regen when I'm planning to tank something solo.

[Jazzera]

i parsed myself at about 1k pure melee dps ( grped in Zeka, by only hitting auto attack, kick and Feral Swipe/Harrow maccro)
Growl of the Panther add 20% dmg melee dps so its 1k*0,20 = 200dps increase,
over 78sec so 200*78 = 15k6dmg,
cast time is 3sec so you loose 3*1kdps by casting it, 15k6-3k=12k6dmg
12k6 / 78 = 161 dps, by casting Growl of the panther i gain about 160 dps
Now, you just have to parse yourself to see how much dps you will gain by casting Growl

[Adruger]

I did the same calculation for her.  It says 20% in practical situations, last time I tried to parse panther (which is the same as puma), it came out around 12% which still makes it worthwhile.

[Pakratz]

Keep in mind that it's effectiveness is reduced if you have a shammy casting champion on you.  My calculations are that with champion going, I get about 3.1 damage per mana from Growl of Panther (dont use Puma) - this is roughly the same dam/mana as you get from a nuke.  Without Champion, I get about 6.7 dam/man, which is better than Howl.

[Nusa]

Of course, Champion is 10%, Panther is 20%, so the net gain is 10% from Panther in that case. And don't ignore the pet improvement when calculating dps improvement (some of you appear to be, although you might just be neglecting to mention it). The actual numbers will vary by individual, the weapons they're using, the pet focus, spell hastes (AA, spell, and focuses), some other focuses, attack value, pet gear, how well spells or melee work on the mob(s) in question, etc.

In other words, a generalized  right/wrong answer you will not find. All you might figure out is what is best for you in a particular  set of circumstances.

[Rabekiz]

Also remember our new pet haste has a +9% damage mod, since the damage mods dont stack the pet is only gaining 11%. The efficiency is less, but the overall result is still the same, its more DPS over not casting it. The issue you need to figure out is if you can afford the mana usage of 5 nukes, puma/panther and howl. There is no one right answer, though puma/panther is a preferred choice for targets with high spell resists like sothgar

I use panther over puma as well since it uses less mana for the same DPS gain and I cant fizzle it. On burn fights you'll also want to remember that our disc will overwrite it, so make sure you time the two, no point in wasting all that mana.

[Adruger]

Yeah I usually use panther early in the fight, and for the last 25% or so I use the disc.  Forgot about the fizzle factor, another good reason to use panther.

Generally on raids I have 3 nukes loaded, though I use the cold one the least.  I also cycle in panther and howl.  Though certain encounters I have more loaded.

Basically we are having discussions about what spells and discs to use and when to use them to maximize our classes dps.  Then as we get new recruits we can bring them up to speed and let them know which AAs will maximize their dps the best. 

Because we run a public raiding system, with our guild as the core of it.  The variation in where the beastlords are is great.  To raid with us the requirements are that you are 80, solteris flagged, and 300 AA.  So we run from the low end of 10k hp 300 AA bsts to 19k 2800 AA bsts.

[Kanan]

For short burn situations, I've started dropping panther from the lineup, mostly since I can load up another nuke for it.

In those short burn situations, I can usually be able to get mana flare/recursion/resurgence, and the gain, in all situations is pretty significant.

I'll load up HATM, both poison nukes and every cold nuke down to our 70 ancient and blow thru my mana pool fast (its sorta fun that a 2 pt nuke that HATM makes mana recursion fire ;p).  Only other spells I keep up then are fero (still not sure why tbh since I rarely cast it), daria's & promised.

[Adruger]

See beasts don't get MR on our raids, so loading up on nukes doesn't benefit me beyond the damage of the nuke itself.  I keep debating the value of fero, if the monks/zerkers/rangers/paladin/every other random raider with an epeen had their way that's all I would cast on raids.  But many over them are over 3k in atk without fero, so its value is decreased, it eats my mana, and every version I load is one less nuke I can have up.

Going to try and lobby for MR and see what it does for me if I load up on nukes.  I actually have a spell set called MR that I used in the rare situations I got it, along with when we did the cryptguard in FC2.

[Kanan]

what's the theory that your chanters are giving you for not giving bsts mana flare etc?

bsts and rangers are the BEST to get this.  Period.  Whatever else may be said by others, there are like no classes that get as many damn near insta casts nukes that are not linked.  If I wanted to, it would be overly easy to load up on 9 nukes and HATM, and I think just barely get down to the 65 nuke.  My mana couldn't absorb it much more than a minute or 2, but it is plausible.  Rangers can load up on as many, or more nukes (several of which are fire based and inherently better, resist-wise) as a bst.

Wizards and magi's nukes are far longer casting and don't get any more base dmg than bst do out of MR.  In the time a wizard can spend casting a nuke, we can usually drop 2 or 3.  That's, obviously, 2 or 3x the return on MR.

Yes, wizards get some tru insta cast nukes, but correct me if I'm wrong and they changed it, aren't they on a relatively long recast timer and all the insta's linked in recast timers?

Use these arguments to lobby for your MR.  Hell, parse yourself on the same mob for at least 2 attempts/kills.  Do at least 1 w/o MR and then talk the chanter into doing MR for you on the other.  Find a wizard and magi guildie who will do the same experiment for you.  Ideally, you will all be w/o MR at the same time, so that debuffs are all identical.  This will give you empirical evidence of the relative gains that MR gives a particular class.  You might try asking, if you're willing to deal with all the whining, bitching, pissing & moaning until you are given real data, on the EQ boards themselves if someone has done a true test of the differences.

[Inphared]

Wizards can cast near 40 spells per minute, where as we using 10 nukes only get to 20 every minute. We don't get near as much of a return from Mana Recursion as they do.

[Kanan]

Wizards can cast near 40 spells per minute, where as we using 10 nukes only get to 20 every minute. We don't get near as much of a return from Mana Recursion as they do.

bleh.. i stand corrected.

[Maylian]

As Imph mentions Wizards have seen a move over to instant cast nukes so you will hear them discussing nuke patterns, almost the same as twisting for bards to maximise their dps. In fact they probably are the new bards since there isn't a /melody command they can use.

As for my spell line up for full burn fights I have now decided to drop puma if the fight is less than 2 minutes since it has very little effect and have reloaded Fero. Our Orc fights last about 90seconds which is barely long enough to use both discs, so only utility spell I have up is fero and daria's / minhoten and the rest are nukes and howl. With this agressive dpsing agro is a problem as many know and I still have issues after hitting roar and tear but 4k is achievable without flare in my opinion.

[Khauruk]

Wizards aren't chaining Insacasts anymore, but they still use them regulary.  The SoF release patch changed many spell cast times, and recast times so that it's more along the lines of insta, wait 2.5 sec, 2secondish w/ spell haste cast time nuke, wait 2.5, instanuke, etc, etc,....  Their big booms are now 4.5 second unhasted as well, so around 3seconds I think to cast those.

So, not as many nukes per minute, but still a goodly number - 2 per every 7-8 seconds means >=15/minute or so, with some possible clicky nukes thrown in between.