How incoming damage works (DB + DI x Random(1 thru 20)), midget pirate vs. ogres

[Khauruk]

Because the topic keeps coming up.

Taken from: http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3506

With all due respect to Zyric, I couldn't let the midget pirate explanation of combat get lost to time.

Damage Intervals and Attack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyric
DB + DI x Random(1 thru 20)

Where DB is base damage.

and DI is damage interval.

Except, the Random(1 thru 20) part isn't exactly random. Its a weighed scale that is based on Mob Atk, Player AC, etc.

In layman's terms:

Lets say everytime a mob tries to hit you the following example happens (after dodge/parry/riposte/block checks):

The Mob spawns 19 midget pirates. These midget pirates gain power based on the mob's attack.

Now in the mean time: You the tank, summon 1 big ogre thing. Your ogre gains strength, health, and manliness based on your AC.

The 19 midget pirates fight your ogre to the death. At the end of the fight the number "Random(1 thru 20)" is based on how many midget pirates survive +1 (All shorties dead = DI 1). And this number gets plugged into the formula and the result is how much damage you take from the mob.

So as you can see, the stronger your ogre is in terms of the midget pirate swarm, the less damage you'll take, since he'll probably kill them all before they kill him. But in the event that the midget pirates get lucky during their fight and kill the ogre, you'll take a spike round of damage.

With that said, Beldavir summons one of the biggest ugliest ogres known to man (5000+ AC). We're talking the Chuck fucking-Norris of ogres. So for him to be taking constant DI20's (all 19 midget pirates survive the fight AKA max damage). Those must be some fucking crazy midget pirates. What this says is that SoF raid mobs ATK is so beefy that the 19 American Gladiator midget pirates they summon are so intense they kill your ogre without a problem every single round. Which is where the problem lies. The issue is that you can't get enough AC to summon a strong enough ogre to kill a good number of those midget pirates before they kill him.
Damage Bonus and Shielding

The midget pirates explains the DI portion of the damage. Each mob has a damage bonus. Think of it as a cannon the midget pirates operate. It's loaded with a cannon ball aimed right at you. If it hits you, it does a certain amount of damage. Shielding makes the cannon ball smaller while Avoidance makes it more likely the entire raiding party of midget pirates and cannon sinks before it gets to your ogre.

The total damage you take is the damage done by each of the midget pirates, plus their cannon.


Skills and mod2s

Dodge, Parry, Block -- When you attack another ship, but your raiding party is sunk before it gets there.
Riposte -- When you attack another ship, your raiding party is sunk, and they instead attack your ogre with their midget pirates.
Strikethrough -- Allows your raiding party to survive being sunk and attack anyway. Notice, however, if the defender has riposte their raiding party still attacks your ogre.
Accuracy -- Launches your midget pirates in strong raider boats.

For warriors:
On their innate benefits:

Originally Posted by Brael
No, it's the DI portion of the damage*.95. Think of it as an innate chopping one hand off one of the midget pirates.

With defensive, it's as if you still have the same number of pirates, but each one that lives only hits you half as hard.

[Khauruk]

From http://www.evilgamer.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57, a more technical viewpoint.

Mobs have 3 variables. DB = Damage base, DI = Damage Interval, and Attack = how often they will land a hit and how high of an interval they will hit at on average.

Damage = DB + (1-20)*DI

Thus there are 20 discrete values for the damage a mob may do, ranging from:

Minimum Damage = DB + 1*DI
Maximum Damage = DB + 20*DI

DI is established by collecting data on the mob and finding the difference between the 2 closest hits. Maximum damage can be determined by sitting and letting the mob hit you. It will hit for maximum. Subtract the DI value you established earlier from the maximum hit and you get the mob's DB.

Warrior innate mitigation = DB + 0.95*(1-20)*DI
Warrior defensive discipline = DB + 0.5*(1-20)*DI

So, let's use two extreme examples:

Mob_A - DB=50, DI=100
Minimum hit is 150, 250, 350, 450, 550, 650, 750... and maximum is 2050 for non-wars
Minimum hit is 145, 240, 335, 430, 525, 620, 715... and maximum is 1950 for wars
Under Defensive, minimum hit is 100 and maximum is 1050

There's a big difference between the maximum hit under Defensive and without it. Further the range of possible hits (maximum hit-minimum hit) when not under Defensive is quite high making healing needs a bit unpredictable.

Mob_B - DB=1800, DI=10
Minimum hit is 1810 and maximum is 2000 for non-wars
Minimum hit is 1809 and maximum is 1990 for wars
Under Defensive, minimum hit is 1805 and maximum is 1900

There is very little difference between the maximum hit under Defensive and without it. Further the range of possible hits (maximum hit-minimum hit) is nearly identical with or without Defensive.

Thus, if a is mob hitting for a wide range of values, the chances are that it's DI is high and you will benefit from using Defensive. If two values are pretty close and it's consistantly hitting for very simular values, the DB is doing most of the damage and DI is likely fairly low - use Evasive.

--------------------------------------------------

With that said, let's say an average Tacvi named that has a DB = 500 and DI = 250 (this seems to be the case with a lot of Tacvi mobs who hit between 700's-5000+). This means it's range is (DB+1*DI) 750 up to (DB+20*DI) 5500 for any class or (DB+0.95*1*DI) 738 up to DB*20*0.95*DI) 5250 for warriors with the inherent 0.95 DI mod without using any discs.

Shielding modifies the DB but not the DI nor does it affect avoidance.

Hence a warrior with 0% shielding will be hit for (1*DB+0.95*1*DI ~ 1*DB+0.95*20*DI) = 738 ~ 5250 on this mob.

A warrior with 10% shielding will be hit for ([1-0.1]*DB+0.95*1*DI ~ [1-0.1]*DB+0.95*20*DI) = 688-5200 without any discs.

Hence, a mob that has a DB of 500 and DI of 250 will hit for:

Non-wars w/o shielding = 750-5500
Wars w/ 0% shielding = 738-5250
Wars w/ 10% shielding = 688-5200
Wars w/ 15% shielding = 663-5175
Wars w/ 20% shielding = 638-5150
Wars w/ 25% shielding = 613-5125
Wars w/ 30% shielding = 588-5120
Wars w/ 35% shielding = 563-5095

So a war w/o any shielding will be hit 738-5250 and a war w/ MAX 35% shielding will be hit 563-5095 for the average Tacvi mob.

The average hit is variable for each mob with this set DB and DI based on its attack.

Defensive modifies DI to 0.5 but does not touch DB. Hence a defensive war will be hit for ([1-shielding percent]*DB+0.5*1*DI up to [1-shielding percent]*DB+0.5*20*DI) or:

Non-wars w/o shielding = 750-5500
War (defensive) w/ 0% shielding = 625-3000
War (defensive) w/ 35% shielding = 450-2825

--------------------------------------------------

Let's look at a trash mob in Txevu with DB = 800 and DI = 100

Non-wars w/o shielding = 900-2800
Wars w/ 0% shielding = 895-2700
Wars w/ 35% shielding = 620-2420

--------------------------------------------------

Let's look at another Tacvi named with a higher DB but lower DI. DB = 1000 and DI = 200

Non-wars w/o shielding = 1200-5000

Wars w/ 0% shielding = 1190-4800
Wars w/ 35% shielding = 840-4450

War (defensive) w/ 0% shielding = 1100-3000
War (defensive) w/ 35% shielding = 750-2650

--------------------------------------------------

I hope this clarifies how shielding works. Hence, shielding is useful but not as game-defining as a lot of people seem to think because most mobs have high attack which means they will hit with higher DI (so closer to 5250 vs 5095 for someone w/ 0% shielding compared to someone with 35% shielding) than on the lower end. Hence on a max hit on a defensive warrior, 35% shielding = 5% mitigation on the first Tacvi example or 11.7% mitigation on the 2nd example.

As you can see shielding is highly DB dependent and and most Tacvi mobs seem to range from 500-1000 on DB. But the fact remains that 35% shielding is NOT 35% mitigation which some people seem to believe.

In relation to AC, it basically modifies attack rating of a mob. Attack affects how often a mob will hit someone as well as what range in 1-20 DI it will hit on average. How this actually works, I cannot explain it in full detail because I don't understand it fully. From what I understand, it might change both the chance of being hit (although some wars state that it does not) and it definitely affects the average DI to make it lower. AC does NOT affect DB.

HP's is self-explanatory, but most people state that AC and shielding are more important than HP on the high end. So why does 1000 hp difference mean very little if AC and shielding are equivalent between 2 tanks? On a mob with DI = 500 and DB = 250, they will be able to take less than 1 more hit on average (median is 2994, mean varies with attack but basically a war would need 2000+ hp difference to take even one more HIT).

AC and shielding are the more important variables because it will cut down the DI and DB respectively, meaning lower average damage which equates to lower spike damage meaning a tank will live longer. This fact becomes even more salient if you consider that pious light will heal for ~ 6000 non-crit or ~ 12000 crit, meaning you can't heal a tank fully over 12000 hp anyway unless you crit a CH. Once a tank has over 12khp, in theory if they are fully healed it takes another 2k+ hp to survive ONE additional hit.

So what does this all mean?

Shielding is good for mobs with high DB and low DI
AC is good for mobs with low DB and high DI
Generally, shielding and/or AC >> HP for tanks once a tank is over 12k range
HP is useful for mobs that proc or cast spells a lot

Relatively speaking =

On non-proc pre-GoD trash, DB is low and DI is low = AC > Shielding > HP
On proc pre-GoD trash, DI is low and DB is low and procs are also low = AC > Shielding > HP

On non-proc GoD trash, DI is moderate and DB is low = Shielding >> AC > HP
On proc GoD trash (kyvs), DI is moderate and DB is low but procs are high = HP > Shielding >> AC

On non-proc PoP era bosses, DI is moderate and DB is low = Shielding > AC > HP
On proc-PoP era bosses, DI is moderate and DB is low and procs are relatively low = Shielding > AC > HP

On non-proc GoD bosses, DI is moderate and DB is high, DI is moderate and DI is high = AC > Shielding > HP
On proc GoD bosses, DI is moderate and DB is high and procs are relatively moderate = AC > Shielding > HP

Can you make a relative scale for the Shielding vs. AC vs. HP? Not really, since it is variable by each mob based on DB, DI, Attack and Procs. But the AC mitigation curve is pretty linear under 2000, has diminishing returns over 2000 and is believed to become fairly flat at 3000. Shielding is linear and caps at 35%. HP is linear without a cap, but in terms of returns it is diminishing over 12khp limited by heals.

But you still want a rough estimate of what a relative scale would be? A parse on a riftseeker's TRASH shows:

1% shielding = 40-50 HP = 24 AC

Keep in mind that this varies a lot by the mob you are fighting. Extrapolation for what we face would probably be roughly:

Non-proc GoD trash ~ 1% shielding = 50HP = 24AC
Proc GoD trash (kyvs) ~ 1% shielding = 25HP = 24AC
Non-proc GoD boss ~ 1% shielding = 90HP = 15AC
Proc-GoD boss ~ 1% shielding = 70HP = 15AC

--------------------------------------------------

Keep in mind that this is primarily for tanks. For casters, shielding will mitigate the same. HP will be the same. But AC is a lot more useless since the effect it has on DI will be a lot less for non-tank classes on the inherent tables.

--------------------------------------------------

Summary:

1. Shielding does not work as % shielding = % mitigation
2. DB = base, DI = interval from 1-20 and all mobs are DB + (1-20)*DI in their damage
3. Shielding affects DB but not DI
4. AC affects DI but not DB
5. HP does NOT affect either
6. Shielding is best for mobs with high DB but low DI
7. AC is best for mobs with high DI but low DB
8. HP is best for mobs that proc a lot
9. For casters, AC is almost useless because of their inherent tables, making shielding and HP more important
10. For what we are doing, tanks should probably focus on AC > Shielding > HP once they are over 12khp

[Kitathia]

LOL Loved the explanation!

KitKat

[Volo]

I think the midget pirate scenario is probably the best theorycrafting scenario I've ever seen.

Awesome posts. Been meaning to understand EQ's system(s) a bit better.