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A Community Divided (kinda long)

Started by Vecsus, January 25, 2004, 02:55:44 PM

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Vecsus

A Community Divided
(This is being posted on both BST Boards.  I am a moderator on one of them but my views are mine alone.  I do not speak for the administration of either forum)

 Beastlords make up a very small portion of the EQ player community.  This is not only because we are the newest class (for another few weeks anyway) but also because we are quite different from the traditional EQ classes.  By the time we were introduced people had formed a fundamental opinion of how certain classes fit into the grand scheme of the game.  We came along and not everyone was able to fit us into their little mold of which classes mattered.  So we were, for a long time, a bit of a cult class; neat too look at, handy at times, but never really "needed" for anything important.

 All EQ classes have a forum where people go to share information about their respective classes.  They like to read about others peoples experiences, opinions, tactics, and gear.  People like to be able to ask questions about upgrades, places to hunt, or even fashion tips.  Some people never make any posts at all; they just lurk around picking up nuggets of info. Other people post more than they should; flooding the forum with senseless drivel.  Regardless of where you fall between those two categories, the community needs you.  Every time a lurker reads something he or she finds helpful they become a better Beastlord, which in turn helps us as a community.  

 A few weeks ago EQBeastlord.com was sold (I'll just refer to this site as COM for now).  We all know the story.  Some of us even understand most of it.  We also know that the sale drove a wedge in our community.  Beastlords.org was born of that split (I'll just refer to this site as ORG for now).  A lot of people left COM in anger and/or disgust over the background of the person that purchased the site.  I am not here to start a debate over the buying and selling of EQ accounts and items, that is a discussion for another venue.  People bailed on COM and moved to ORG.  I was one of them.  Hell, I changed my account info on COM and swore I would not be back.  I registered on ORG and figured the community would just pick up where it left off.  It didn't.  ORG had a large number of people move to it but the post count was not as high and the topics were not as comprehensive as they were on COM.  So I registered a new account on COM and started browsing that site again.  Guess what...COM lacked the same numbers and relevance as ORG.  This seemed odd to me.  I know that the number of Beastlords had not decreased, if anything our numbers should increase over time (alts, bots, etc). So what was the reason for this decline in the community as a whole?  I'll let that question hang a while for people to think about.

 Am I making a call for either COM or ORG to shut down so we can all be one big happy family again?  Not at all. I believe that both sites can benefit the community.  Occasionally, when there was just the one board, people would bump their posts to keep them on the top because the number of posts kept pushing them lower.  With two forums people are more likely to get an answer.  But the flip side of that is some posts never get an answer at all.  On both sites I have seen people ask a question to which very few replies are made or, sometimes, none at all.   This does not help us as a class.
On one forum there was talk about mandatory registration just to read posts let alone reply to them.  The Admin of that board wisely chose not to make registration a requirement.  On the other board I made a call for all the unregistered lurkers to make an account just so they'd have a name available when they wanted to make a reply.  I suspect that, on both boards, many of the lurkers are people that are in "hiding" because of the controversy over the recent split and the drama that resulted.  Hell, I'm a Moderator on one site and I almost went so far as to create a different name on the other site so no one would think I was a "traitor".  But then I thought to myself "Who would I be a traitor TO?"  Where does my proper allegiance belong?  To the COM site or to the Beastlord community?  I decided that it belonged to the community as a whole.  I will continue to Mod on the COM site in order to facilitate the discussions there but I will also visit the ORG site, with the same name as the COM site, and post there when I have something to add to the conversation.

 I understand that some people associate the COM site with EULA violations.  That is an unfair characterization.  The information that the site contains is no different now than it was before the sale.  The people that Admin and Mod the site are not paid employees, we're Beastlords just like the rest of you.  I've received not one piece of new spam in my email since the sale so they are not exploiting the registration database.   People make money off EQ, they've been doing it for year and will keep doing it.  In fact, the market for in-game items is only going to grow as more and more game hit the streets.  Hell, even Sony is working on a way to get a slice of the pie through the selling of pre-leveled characters and AA/item packages.  The COM site did not originate this concept.

 I also understand that some people consider the ORG site as a "rebel" group.  They are the ones that thumbed their noses at our previously happy home and left to make a new one.  Well I think that's crap.  They did what they thought was best in reaction to the sale.  No one has the right to judge their individual decisions.  People have different tolerance and comfort levels.  Theirs dictated they could not support a site purchased by people that sell EQ items.  

Much the same way people choose between FoxNews and CNN.  Neither of them is evil, they are just different.  But they both report the news.  When a bomb goes off in Baghdad they report it.  It's the same thing with the Beastlord community; when a nerf happens both sites report it.  I'll visit both sites in order to get as much info as I can.

Two forums does not have to mean two communities.  We can exist on both.  Hell, I venture to say we can even grow stronger through two forums.  People have a second place to ask their questions and post their tactics.   I'd like to see the "us and them" attitude subside over time.  I'd like to see us as a Site1 and Site2 community.  It does not have to be an Either-Or situation.  It can be a Both.  

So to you site lurkers, register, login, post, talk, debate, argue, tell stories.  If you disabled your account on COM, just PM an Admin and they can reset it (like they did with mine).  To the ORG lurkers, just register and post.  Lets keep building up our wonderful class.  Starting with the new expansion we'll no longer be the new kids.  We're getting a new red-headed step-child to kick around with the Berserker class.  We should have a solid community once again.

 I will not climb off my soap-box.  I thank you if you've read all the way to the end.  Again, this was just something I wanted to say.  It reflects none of the opinions of either board.
Vecsus Strangiato <Enlightened Dark>
Feral Lord
Tarew Marr
MY MAGELO!

Jaeren

Here's my disclaimer.. I'm a moderator here, was a regular reader of eqbeastlord until the last few months (ironically about when I got level 65 and got fed up with the slowness, useless posts, etc of the site) and occasional poster. My views are just my views, DiosT, Kashmiir & anyone else that visits or helps keep this community running may not agree and thats fine.

Quote
Most people have no real problem with Oaga. It's that slime-ball Yantis that turned this whole mess into the drama it has become. Some people either don't know or don't care what Yantis does to the game and thats fine. Sometimes ignorance truely is bliss.

Those were your exact words. Most of continue to feel that Yantis hurts the game and you seemed to have agreed for a while at least, personally, someone that I think is a slimeball, I dont then frequent their business or help their business grow..

Quote
I registered on ORG and figured the community would just pick up where it left off. It didn't. ORG had a large number of people move to it but the post count was not as high and the topics were not as comprehensive as they were on COM. So I registered a new account on COM and started browsing that site again. Guess what...COM lacked the same numbers and relevance as ORG. This seemed odd to me. I know that the number of Beastlords had not decreased, if anything our numbers should increase over time (alts, bots, etc). So what was the reason for this decline in the community as a whole? I'll let that question hang a while for people to think about.

You expected us to have the whole database and userbase that eqbeastlord.com had built up over the years in a matter of a day? Think you need to get real and think about that again. Talk had been mentioned about a database copy and Oaga / Yanti$ basically said do it and we have a very good case for a lawsuit.

Right now .COM has 107659 articles & 7454 registered users.
Right now we have 6842 articles & 1029 registered users.

Yes there are less posts, we've also only been going for 3 weeks. And there are a lot less repeat posts, whining, etc which you even admitted to. So whats the difference in your opinion between relevance & comprehensive? You've said one site is relevant, one is comprehensive.

Quote
On both sites I have seen people ask a question to which very few replies are made or, sometimes, none at all. This does not help us as a class.

Unfortunately, yes this does happen. Sometimes it's because people have asked it before and anyone reading the new thread may assume the poster will find the answer. Sometimes people don't know the answer. Sometimes, the post just gets lost in the "i'll reply later" shuffle. Unfortunately, there's no real solution to that, stuff happens and it just doesn't happen here or on .COM or even just everquest baords. It can happen everywhere.

Quote
Hell, even Sony is working on a way to get a slice of the pie through the selling of pre-leveled characters and AA/item packages. The COM site did not originate this concept.

Thats just a rumour about sony. And no, the COM site did not originate it, but Yanti$ is definitely one of the biggest players and most successful, so he has defined it at least.

Quote
The information that the site contains is no different now than it was before the sale

Taking you on your exact phrase, the site has in fact changed. It has the list of exploits along the side from RPGEXpert and it has the banners & links. There is also the issue of moderation. There have been many more complaints about .COM's moderation procedures since Yanti$ took over. That could be because all of the old moderators were stripped soon as he took over and only a few asked to come back, then all new mods were found.

Quote
It does not have to be an Either-Or situation. It can be a Both.

It's a nice thought, but unfortunately, I think a lot of people feel the same way as I do. That being, if I dislike what Yanti$ stands for and does, how can i support him by giving him hits & building his community so he can sell it off again with his assets to IGE or use it to get more items to sell. We got sold out once... Now twice if the IGE thing goes through...


/shrug

Random thoughts from me, sorry for spelling mistakes or jumbled thoughts. I just woke up and this was the first post I read.

Note: I expect this will end up in the rant section shortly and will be checking the thread while I'm on. Nothing against you Vecsus but this basically is a rant and the comments it will draw will probably be rant material as well.



EQ - Morell Thule / Erollisi Marr (Retired):
[75 Beastlord] Jaeren (Barbarian)
[72 Cleric] Velissia (High Elf)
[69 Shaman] Sotar (Vah Shir)
  
WoW - Medivh (Retired):
[60 Rogue] Draeven (Undead)
[60 Priest] Lifesaver (Undead)
[56 Rogue] Klaien (Human)
[51 Paladin] Keidian (Human)
  
VSOH - Flamehammer (Retired)
[34 Disciple] Daevien (Half Elf)
[33 Bard] Pastorius (Kojani)
[26 Dread Knight] Draeven (Kojani)


Bulge

Quotebut this basically is a rant and the comments it will draw will probably be rant material as well.

Depends on which forum you are. :)

See, now I was a little ranty myself. :D


Edit: And joking off course!
Bulge, 66 Beastlord of Third Era, Antonius Bayle(formerly Kane Bayle), temporarily retired.
Sterk, 45 SK of Indigo Skies, 6-box on Rathe server, and progressing through TSS.

Vecsus

When i refer to post count I do not mean totals.  Of course you have less here, you are newer.  I am talking about daily counts.

 I never once said that one site was relevant (which would carry the logical connotation that the other site was irrelevant).

 Yantis does not run the moderation on the .COM site.  I'm a mod and I have never been told what to do.  There was not pamphlet telling me how to preach the gospel of Yantis.  I think people are creating drama where there is none.

And you are right, a lot of people do think the way you do, that it cannot be a "both" situation.  There are people on both sites that feel that way.  They are not the ones I was talking to.  I was trying to reach the people that are riding the fence.  Trying to explain that the BST community does not have to be split to the degree that it currently is.

 Funny how you declare it a Rant.  A rant is usually considered an irrational or overly emotional post with little or no attempt to offer alternatives or solutions.  As i re-read my post I see fodder for discussion.  I am aware that some will treat it as a reason to rant, which may result in the need to move it.  But the original post is not, in and of itself, a rant.  That you choose to see it as such says much.
Vecsus Strangiato <Enlightened Dark>
Feral Lord
Tarew Marr
MY MAGELO!

Jaeren

Actually, if you compare the daily counts now you will see that we have more per day ;)

Quote
ORG had a large number of people move to it but the post count was not as high and the topics were not as comprehensive as they were on COM. So I registered a new account on COM and started browsing that site again. Guess what...COM lacked the same numbers and relevance as ORG.

See above quote for the relevance reference.

I personally stopped posting when Yanti$ took over, I browse through as guest quickly once in a while (ie: twice since this site came around) but I've heard all kinds of comments about the moderators now and it does mostly seem to fit in with anything that would hurt Yanti$ is removed.

The community is split, for a few different reasons. One is that many people feel that Oaga sold us out (I do find it very strange that besides Oaga's post about needing the money, eqdruids got bought out at the same time and oaga suddenly has an interest in the site again now that Yanti$ owns it. I tend to think that was part of the deal, he had to work on the site and try to keep users, which almost works against him for a lot of users that feel negatively about him and his actions) and a lot of people dislike Yanti$ and wont visit his purchased communities since that would seem to support him in their minds.

Quote
Funny how you declare it a Rant. A rant is usually considered an irrational or overly emotional post with little or no attempt to offer alternatives or solutions. As i re-read my post I see fodder for discussion. I am aware that some will treat it as a reason to rant, which may result in the need to move it. But the original post is not, in and of itself, a rant. That you choose to see it as such says much.

I didn't declare it a rant, I said it basically was and as I stated at the very beginning, the posts in this thread are just my opinion, no moderators or admins support my thoughts at this point, if they post and agree that still doesn't mean an official beastlords.org stance. If I had declared it a rant, I would have moved it immediately, I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt and seeing where it leads. Your immediate attack on me for mentioning that is a step towards it moving beause now you have made it personal against me and running it further into rant territory.



EQ - Morell Thule / Erollisi Marr (Retired):
[75 Beastlord] Jaeren (Barbarian)
[72 Cleric] Velissia (High Elf)
[69 Shaman] Sotar (Vah Shir)
  
WoW - Medivh (Retired):
[60 Rogue] Draeven (Undead)
[60 Priest] Lifesaver (Undead)
[56 Rogue] Klaien (Human)
[51 Paladin] Keidian (Human)
  
VSOH - Flamehammer (Retired)
[34 Disciple] Daevien (Half Elf)
[33 Bard] Pastorius (Kojani)
[26 Dread Knight] Draeven (Kojani)


Layne

QuoteYantis does not run the moderation on the .COM site. I'm a mod and I have never been told what to do. There was not pamphlet telling me how to preach the gospel of Yantis. I think people are creating drama where there is none.


So you're saying Oaga and the Mods are NO LONGER deleting ALL links to this board?

Have the word filter operational to change all links to this board back to the other board?

Delete ALL posts asking for PM's with the address of this site?

Threating to ban people for posting links to this board?



Is that the non-Yantis moderation you mean?  :roll:



The censorship by Oaga since he sold the board has been rediculous, anything negative in anyway to Yantis OR his business interests (i.e. site NOT owned by Yantis) is deleted.

And you say that board is being ran well!!!  :shock:

Jaeren

Just a note Layne, Vecsus is one of the new mods that were introduced when the old ones lost access & left when Yanti$ took over ;)



EQ - Morell Thule / Erollisi Marr (Retired):
[75 Beastlord] Jaeren (Barbarian)
[72 Cleric] Velissia (High Elf)
[69 Shaman] Sotar (Vah Shir)
  
WoW - Medivh (Retired):
[60 Rogue] Draeven (Undead)
[60 Priest] Lifesaver (Undead)
[56 Rogue] Klaien (Human)
[51 Paladin] Keidian (Human)
  
VSOH - Flamehammer (Retired)
[34 Disciple] Daevien (Half Elf)
[33 Bard] Pastorius (Kojani)
[26 Dread Knight] Draeven (Kojani)


Laba

Quote from: Layne
QuoteYantis does not run the moderation on the .COM site. I'm a mod and I have never been told what to do. There was not pamphlet telling me how to preach the gospel of Yantis. I think people are creating drama where there is none.


So you're saying Oaga and the Mods are NO LONGER deleting ALL links to this board?

Have the word filter operational to change all links to this board back to the other board?

Delete ALL posts asking for PM's with the address of this site?

Threating to ban people for posting links to this board?



Is that the non-Yantis moderation you mean?  :roll:



The censorship by Oaga since he sold the board has been rediculous, anything negative in anyway to Yantis OR his business interests (i.e. site NOT owned by Yantis) is deleted.

And you say that board is being ran well!!!  :shock:

Theatened? I WAS banned be Oaga for linking to this site. Not just account banned, They banned my freaking IP address too so if i want to check out the site i have to use a proxy. Its nice to see that people realise tha Oaga is behind this too and that he's not some innocent bystander. Vecsus is a mod of the old boards so his views are very one sided. He probally wants more people to move back to the old boards so he can feel important.
Laba Lamp
65 Beastlord
Legions of Darkness
Innoruuk Server

Thrashum Gud

QuoteI think people are creating drama where there is none.

and your bringing this up just as it FINALLY was starting to die down a bit helps keep drama from being created exactly how?

I think the more we continue to bring this up the angrier the community will remain.

Grymlok

Quote from: LabaVecsus is a mod of the old boards so his views are very one sided. He probally wants more people to move back to the old boards so he can feel important.

That is harsh and unfair.  He does have many valid points.

But to me, it is simple: the board is more active, therefore it is the one I prefer to frequent.  Though I must say the frequent font page updates on COM are nice.  Wish Oaga would have been that interested before he got paid to do it, though.

The Berserker: Foecussed

BloodCelt

after reading this, I decided to go back over and see how the old board is doing since the mass exodus.    It appears to be the same 8-10 people posting to each other, and most of them are mods and admins.

We left due to two things..  most left for moral ethics in regard to the site being owned by someone they think is destroying the game, and then the other half of us left because a site we supported was outright sold without any input.   Since you stayed, it is obvious that you are not hindered by either event.   The nail in the coffin was the redirect from the EZboard that the members HERE paid to turn gold while we looked for a new home.

You are welcome to come visit, but leave your bagage at the door.  We made our decision, and it was the right one.  You may return to the Oaga and Friends™ board with our best wishes if this is unsatisfactory for you.

BC
[FONT COLOR=yellow]
Ironcelt McClain - Feral Lord - <The Mercenary Syndicate> The Rathe Server

Sorien

Okay...

At first I thought this was another one of those 'The ORG site is so high, mighty, and pure a site'  posts, but then I read it.  Don't rant me for saying that either.  I was once told to never throw stones unless I am fully sin free.  Now granted, I have not bought stuff for game purposes except to keep my DSL up, and pay for the privelage for logging on.  I cannot say that I have never gotten crabby in game and done something I have regretted later, or done bad things in real life.

You have some good points in your post Vescus (which, by the way is certainly not a Rant).  I do believe that there is still good information in both forums.  Both have stuff you need to weed through to get to the real meat of the site.  The COM site, you have to weed through the 'Bah, screw the rebels', the ORG site, you have to weed through the 'Oh we are so much higher, mightier, and pure than that other site'.  And yes, I do go to the other site to check certain things out when I can't find it here.  

I do think that people will start realizing the fact that there is good information at both sites and start going back once the fires have died down.  Making a post like this certainly is not letting the fires die, but helping to rekindle the fires.  I can see your intentions though and I suspect they are good.

To sum up, just stop posting things like this and everything will go back to normal.  Which is people exchanging ideas with other people, wherever it happens.  

-or-

Maybe we all could just put a little perspective to things and realize that this is just simply a forum on the internet, which supports a GAME.  If you really think about it, it's is truly kinda silly, what we are putting ourselves through.


P.S.  There have been no attacks (direct or indirect) nor have there been any rants on this thread.  :)

Saiphlor

Quote from: Vecsus
Much the same way people choose between FoxNews and CNN.  Neither of them is evil, they are just different.  But they both report the news.  When a bomb goes off in Baghdad they report it.  

But this is where you are wrong ... FoxNews is evil.   :lol:

Noxdowne Draggout

The bottom line is that US the Beaslord's of Norrath need a board that will be recognized by Sony as an official class board.

This board is now the official board according to Sony correct?



Nox

Thoar Nametaker

Why would I want to read the other board?  Any questions I have (that have not been answered 30 times) will be answered by someone here.  Yes, there is more information at the other site, simply by virtue of longevity.

But don't try to pretend that visiting the other site does not support Yantis, if that were true, he would not have purchased it in the first place.  

He already has 2 years of our thoughts and questions to fuel his industry, there is no way he is going to get more.