Author Topic: Is Paragon still Paragon (and still worth being called class defining)?  (Read 7131 times)

Offline Umlat

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Is it just me, or are other people seeing Paragon of Spirits/FPoS losing out to other classes' newer AAs?

It seems odd that the devs think that each rank of FPoS in Underfoot only merited a 20 hp & 6 mana/tick increase, yet Death Bloom (as an example) suddenly gives Necros a net boost of 600 mana per tick for 7 ticks.

Things like Second Spire of Enchantment, Serene Harvest and possibly other AAs/abilities have spread high density HME recovery across many classes now. Many of these abilities have better returns in either health and/or mana than paragon, often at a lower total cost.

Looking at the beastlord's class defining abilities, let's see how they have fared.

1) Only zoneable pet. Gone.
2) Best pet healer. Tied for best now. Is actually somewhat of a liablility, since we have been given too many pet heals, to our detriment in other areas. Best "pet" anything will never happen as mages will never accept this as possible.
3) HP/Mana regen buff. Has survived, but many classes get hp/mana regen built into their own (self) buffs, lessening the need for it.  Potions are available as well, making a substitute that is portable available to everyone that can be used on demand.
4) Ferocity. Has been reduced to nothing but a short duration attack buff with a recast timer that severely limits its utility.
5) Pet Class. This is becoming somewhat meaningless as a distinction as many minor pets are making up ground on our warder DPS wise, I'm sure defense comes next. Revamp of pet system will also make focii available when it is ever introduced. We've actually started to lose out in the pet department as mages and necros get more pet types via swarm spells AAs and sympathetic procs. Furthermore, we get DENIED more pet summoning abilities in part because so NON PET classes are being given more and more swarm pet summoning abilites via spell AA or procs.
6) Paragon. Again, other classes are being granted equivalent HME regeneration abilities, lessening the need for paragon and simultaneously restricting paragon, since boosting it would make it overpowering.

This doesn't leave much in the way of "class defining" abilities now does it?

Increasingly, the "class defining" features of the beastlord have become what we AREN'T given. No fixed invis until SoD, unlike everyone else with invis. No remove curse ability until UF, unlike every other healer class and even now its self/pet only(and pet portion of Nature's Salve isn't working). Only melee/hybrid class who didn't get flurry ability with UF initially. Fewest spells/discs of any hybrid class, further exacerbated by the fact that 4 of our 81 to 85 spells are now pet heals of one form or another. The only "outdoors" class without any real "outdoor" skills. SoD item grouping imposed a major restriction of gear compared to other classes, particularly in the korafax raid, tower and hard raids, where beastlords only had about half the number of non visible items available to them (excluding all/all). The relative lack of fractured essences from t3 raids affected beastlords the most, since all of our damage focii needed these, unlike anyone else. The UF gold token weapon - its the only one out of the dual wielding class weapons that is restricted to primary only. We're one of the few remaining classes that can't ditch aggro/in combat status, which is a killer, since a lot of people seem to flop/fade far quicker than they need to, leaving us the only ones in combat, then dead, then stuck with rez effects non mana/end and the need to summon pet and buff, re gear pet if possible (generally not).

To me, it looks like any shred of positive uniqueness we ever had in terms of actual abilities as a class are gone for one reason or another. Unlike other classes, we really haven't seen any new class defining abilites added as the game has evolved. Furthermore, many of our other abilites have been frozen, since later more comphrehensive versions of those abilities were designated as being "class defining" for someone else. If we get anything new these days, it's an inferior cut and paste of something someone else has , or it's another pet heal  :-o The devs need to rectify this in the near future.Since it seems like a bst CR is something that is not going to happen for a while, we need to rely on others to argue our case for us. If that doesn't work, we may have to discuss the PM version of a letter writing campaign or something. Or, in my case, I guess it'll be more along the lines of a nine volume , 4500 page Encyclopaedia Queror Rex Bestia (excuse the bad Latin) :oops:

Offline Grbage

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Like I've been saying for literally years now, nerfed via lack of inattention. You've just outlined why bst numbers are abysmal, we probably only out populate berserkers.
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Offline Blarp

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 good post.

Offline wildwaters

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If you guys had a better sense of what exactly defines your class you wouldn't be in the shape you are in.

Problem is some of you want to tank, some of you want to dps, some of you want to pet tank, some of you want to be healers, some of you want to be a utility class.

Beastlords get alot all over and I think they are pretty powerful at higher aa levels but until you have a defined sense of yourselves and push for abilities that move you in that direction you will continue to stagnate ;/

If you have a direction you want to move in then you can work on the devs to move you that way with in reason.

In all honesty the game is eleven years old and the class is so ramshackle that at this point it's unlikely you're gonna be able to push in any direction before the game flops.

Offline Camikazi

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If you guys had a better sense of what exactly defines your class you wouldn't be in the shape you are in.

Problem is some of you want to tank, some of you want to dps, some of you want to pet tank, some of you want to be healers, some of you want to be a utility class.

Beastlords get alot all over and I think they are pretty powerful at higher aa levels but until you have a defined sense of yourselves and push for abilities that move you in that direction you will continue to stagnate ;/

If you have a direction you want to move in then you can work on the devs to move you that way with in reason.

In all honesty the game is eleven years old and the class is so ramshackle that at this point it's unlikely you're gonna be able to push in any direction before the game flops.

The reason we can't come to decision on how to define the class is cause we never had definition in the first place. We have at different times been able to tank, to heal, to DPS and had utility, most everyone who has played the class for years have done all of this. It is hard to agree what our class is when we have been shifted from one thing to another over the years. The devs need to figure out what our class definition is, then we can help to get us there, but until they figure it out we will always argue over it.




Offline Zunar

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All I know is, in character creation it says beastlords are primarily a dps class, with some shaman like spells to heal/boost allies, sicken and poison mobs with crippling/slowing attacks, and hurl ice nukes on them.
We use blunt weapons, fight hand to hand and sometimes use piercers.
We also have a warder to fight alongside us, which we share a bond with and aid eachother in battle. We wear leather or chitin/carapace armor.

It'd appear to me we're supposed to be a hybrid dps class, able to solo and group, and do alittlebit of everything.
Except pulling/cc....that we totally cannot do.
Oh yeah, did I say primarily a dps class :)

It's easy really...to make beastlords catch more of that lost ground, we need a new meaningful utility to define our class (which I think SOE have failed with for years now. We only get abilities another class can already do better) or more dps to be considered among the better dps classes imo.
I don't see how more dps would be a problem to give us, since plenty of other classes, including top dps (rogue) can also pull. Not to speak of monks too, who can CC, pull and dps....oh wait they can tank too :P

Offline Umlat

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If you guys had a better sense of what exactly defines your class you wouldn't be in the shape you are in.

Problem is some of you want to tank, some of you want to dps, some of you want to pet tank, some of you want to be healers, some of you want to be a utility class.

Beastlords get alot all over and I think they are pretty powerful at higher aa levels but until you have a defined sense of yourselves and push for abilities that move you in that direction you will continue to stagnate ;/

If you have a direction you want to move in then you can work on the devs to move you that way with in reason.

In all honesty the game is eleven years old and the class is so ramshackle that at this point it's unlikely you're gonna be able to push in any direction before the game flops.

Excuse me for a second...ok I'm better now. Better sense of what we are/should be? Personally, I think I covered what I think we are. I saw some agrees and disagrees, but mostly what I saw was OMG - Long! Guilty of that. I'm a book junky and read and retain an averge sized sf/fantasy novel in 4 to 6 hours tops.

Any attempt to restate my views on the subject will probably get me hurt. Beyond that, we have in fact tried to push the beastlord class towards something more defined. IF we get an answer, it is almost certainly "No. We're giving that to <another class>." Or it was already allocated by the time we got to beastlords. Or some forum troll shows up and whines enough to kill it. Or it can't be made to work in game. Even when we are ASKED for input, they ignore it and do what they want.  I'm hoping that given a reasonable amount of time, that some (even 2 or 3) of the suggestions I've included in Beta Forums, The regular forums and here will show up in a reasonably balanced form that actually improves us and gets us closer to where I'd like to be (personal bias there, obviously.)

The major problem as I see it is that we get little or no feedback from the Devs on a lot of whats offered up. If we had a good solid post of all the no answers here as a sticky or something, we'd be able to actually cull a bunch of stuff from the want list and better figure out what it's worth asking for. Seeing something come back saying, a b c & d are acceptable options to give you - pick 2 by consensus and we'll work on them. We've proposed, getting a counter-offer/suggestion/proposal is what we really need.

Nuff said. Late for Raid ><

Offline Hzath

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Quote from: Umlat
Increasingly, the "class defining" features of the beastlord have become what we AREN'T given.

The major problem as I see it is that we get little or no feedback from the Devs on a lot of whats offered up.

These 2 lines (from 2 different posts, but I find them to be the two most important) are really what's holding us back right now.

 TADENEA (bolded in case you're skimming)  you're really the only person we feel has any power (we put too much on your shoulders I'm sure, but you're the only one listening) that says anything at all to us.  Could you do whatever is within your power to try and find out what the hell a beastlord is supposed to be?  Find out why we have the issues we have, find out where our class is headed, find out what, if any of our issues are currently being worked on so we can stop flooding them with PMs on said issues.

Beastlord Community Round Table representative.  Feel free to PM me or contact me in game (Drinal.Hzathz) about anything you think needs attention.

Offline nedoirah

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I have a question. Why are we given a piercer as our class only weapon in the expansion? Why not a h2h? The only beasts I know who use a piercer are those not lucky enough to get a h2h or 1hb for their second weapon.

Offline Umlat

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I have a question. Why are we given a piercer as our class only weapon in the expansion? Why not a h2h? The only beasts I know who use a piercer are those not lucky enough to get a h2h or 1hb for their second weapon.

I think Ngreth is trying to provide more variety in the weapon types actually used by people. Seems like UF is piercing for Bsts since Ripslice Claws and Torment are both piercing. Afflicting Strike for a proc is all over the place. Several cultural procs have also started to appear on dropped weapons now. The downside is that the cultural procs in particular and also things like Chaotic Strike, are dependant on the magnitude of the proc for level caps on stuns and possibly other effects. Something that does 10 damage and stuns up to a level 70 mob for 0.05 seconds on a proc on a level 85 required weapon is pretty useless. Fist of Lava from OMM missions looks ok until you look at the level cap on the stun. Same thing with a quested DD/stun aug from TSS.

Would be nice if the generic Proc lines that have been taking over were made formulaic with respect to things like maximum level for the stun. For example Stunning Strike V does 250 dmg and a 0.75 sec stun(magic, -50 resist modifier), with stun level = (req lvl +3). So stick this proc on a level 10 req weapon and the stun is (0.75 sec/13). Put it on a level 85 req aug and it still does the same 250 damage but the stun is (0.75sec/88). In the case of stuns of inappropriately low levels, all they do for us is add more aggro if I remember correctly, which just make our aggro problems worse to now positive effect.

Another point of note is that rarely is a h2h weapon of a particular type more beneficial to a bst rather than a mnk. H2H weapons that are mnk bst will often sport something like +x Flying kick or some other modifier that is for monks. THe occasional h2h weapon that sports a sympathetic deaggro proc built in or a rake line damage bonus would be good. Originally our highest weapon skill was hand to hand. Seems silly that nowhere in Norrath, particularly among the 4 races that can be bsts but not monks that there is no weaponsmiths that focus on designing h2h weapons that are of most use to thier own fellows.

Lastly we are getting the strange procs. More specifically the "Weapon X has proc Y...hunh?" ones. Kernigan's Firey Hammer... which procs a Freezing Strike :roll:


Offline Grbage

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Re: Is Paragon still Paragon (and still worth being called class defining)?
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2010, 02:12:27 pm »
Well, since they changed how BS works for rogues piercer ratios have been brought up to where they are actually a useable option for everyone else to use. Couple that with H2H weapons losing their ratio advantage, beyond looks it doesn't matter what we use now. Personally I've never been caught up on looks, performance is what matters to me.
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Offline nedoirah

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Re: Is Paragon still Paragon (and still worth being called class defining)?
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2010, 01:30:38 am »
LoL Torment is the weapon I was refering to in my question. I'm going to have to look at our skill caps for 1hb h2h  and piercing to see which is the best... not that I think 1 or 2 points difference does all that much.

Offline Grbage

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Re: Is Paragon still Paragon (and still worth being called class defining)?
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2010, 02:19:44 pm »
LoL Torment is the weapon I was refering to in my question. I'm going to have to look at our skill caps for 1hb h2h  and piercing to see which is the best... not that I think 1 or 2 points difference does all that much.

Been forever since I looked at skill caps and I'm at work right now but from memory h2h has a slight advantage there. Like you said though, a few points wont make much of a difference in dps all other things being equal.
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Offline kharthai

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Re: Is Paragon still Paragon (and still worth being called class defining)?
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2010, 02:28:45 pm »
Skill caps been equal for quite some time now, as far as I know.

Offline Lathon

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Re: Is Paragon still Paragon (and still worth being called class defining)?
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2010, 04:55:33 pm »
LoL Torment is the weapon I was refering to in my question. I'm going to have to look at our skill caps for 1hb h2h  and piercing to see which is the best... not that I think 1 or 2 points difference does all that much.

Been forever since I looked at skill caps and I'm at work right now but from memory h2h has a slight advantage there. Like you said though, a few points wont make much of a difference in dps all other things being equal.

Like Kharthai said our skills have been equal when maxxed for some time now, I believe 335 for all. As far as the bst only weapon, Torment. I use this piece myself and am very happy with it's performance. It isn't as good as Hexxt Chitinbreaker's Lessonteacher ratio (if you were lucky enough to get one) but it does out perform Soulsunder. The disease proc is a plus with the AA's into Focused Animus. Overall it is a very good weap and cheaper sub for Hexxt until you snag a UF raid weap or one from the Anniversary raid.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 04:57:39 pm by Lathon »