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Author Topic: New AAs on Test!!!  (Read 68690 times)

Nusa

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #150 on: April 12, 2010, 01:28:11 PM »
There's a right way and a wrong way to be vocal. I don't really care what you have to say if you can't remain civil while saying it.

I think FD is going to be more powerful than you think it is. You just have to learn the right way to use it. I'll find out for sure after it's live...I'm not wasting my time testing old data on test.

Offline Grbage

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #151 on: April 12, 2010, 02:25:13 PM »
Yeah, I'd rather have a guaranteed success every 7.5 minutes, thanks. By the time the tank has got his end back, been rebuffed, etc, you only have a couple minutes to wait before the fade is available again.

What good is a 30 sec FD, if, as the poster above me said, it failed 8 times in a row in PoF, with 3 mobs on him?

I'll take the fade, thanks.

Sure, I'm a troll, because when a weak class gets a weak ability, and a strong class gets a great ability, something seems wrong.

[edit: I should also add that other classes have succeeded in their agendas largely through being vocal and complaining a lot. By all means use the "stop whining" argument, and see how much attention we get.]

[2nd edit: there wouldn't *be* class jealously if things weren't so far out of whack. As a group player/non-raider, you want to see the disparity between mages and bsts. night and day.]

1. It has been raised to 80% but might not be pushed to test yet, we'll have to see about that.
2. 80% success chance on a short timer is a lot better then 100% on 7.5min timer for bst. Otherwise, it helps the group beast dps with lesser agro tanks on every pull and helps raid bst on raid targets not die right after the MT. Mages don't often pull agro so a 7.5 min timer is just dandy for them.
3. Thank the devs for giving you a whole nother line to spend aa's on in upcoming expansions.
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Offline k9wazere

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #152 on: April 12, 2010, 02:44:36 PM »

How many mobs did you have on you?  I got 12 success out of 20 on a single guard mob at pofire tables,  but with 3 guards chasing me i got 3 success's out of 20 tries.   I made a big ole train for fun to try 10+ mobs but somehow managed to agro that big fabled spider raid mob and had 0 of 8-9 triese before i gave up and slugged a gate potion.


Just wanted to make sure you'd read this guy's post. We assume this was based on the 60% success chance FD.

12/20 with one mob.
3/20 with 3.
0/8 with 10.

So what exactly does this FD let us escape? Most times when I die it's from bad pulls. Multiple mobs.

Exactly the time when, according to these numbers, FD will fail. An extra 20% isn't going to fundamentally change the way the AA works, is it. So I assume it's still going to fail with multiple mobs.

This is what I'm trying to understand, here.

Offline Dragonfangs

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #153 on: April 12, 2010, 04:04:40 PM »
Just wanted to make sure you'd read this guy's post. We assume this was based on the 60% success chance FD.

12/20 with one mob.
3/20 with 3.
0/8 with 10.

So what exactly does this FD let us escape? Most times when I die it's from bad pulls. Multiple mobs.

Exactly the time when, according to these numbers, FD will fail. An extra 20% isn't going to fundamentally change the way the AA works, is it. So I assume it's still going to fail with multiple mobs.

This is what I'm trying to understand, here.


Its a deaggro tool, not a pulling tool. That is the problem you are having with understanding it seems. Beastlords aren't supposed to be pullers, nor are rangers look at what happened to their HA when the devs caught wind of it still being "overpowered" during UF beta.

The guy that did this test, i am assuming here, did it just to see the rates of having more then one mob hitting you would be. Largely FD does stop a mob in the middle of an attack so if its mid combat round for a mob or mid cast it will still hit you, therefore casuging FD to "break". By large the "proof" is biase because of what was trying to be achieved at that time.

You can still FD on a bad pull and live thats what the numbers are telling you as long you don't engage the mobs and try tanking them while trying to do so. If the 80% success rate per cast is true when it goes live it leaves a realitively small gap for failing. 4/5 success ratio is by far better then 3/5 success ratio that most of these tests were run with.

There shouldn't be a need for us to have escape, even most of the classes that have it shouldn't. Having a need for a "Oh what the fuck did I just do" button only makes the class seem fairly stupid for not having thought of a better way. The only "escape" aa thats fairly well designed is that for the zerker and that is only because it leaves them stunned after using it. The stun should be longer so its not used as a bards fade is, but they still take a hit to their dps for using it. Bst Deaggro is based it seems at cutting it down before it gets to large but none of it really seemed to be working like it should be.


Once you get past it not being a pulling tool. Think this question over. Do you use Roar of Thunder or asp/raven/smash in a way like this?

Offline bradam

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #154 on: April 12, 2010, 04:12:25 PM »
Bad thing is to get a really semi accurate fail/success % I'd have to run atleast a 100 tries, and to get a solid margin of error I'd have to do 1000+ tests.   And I'm far to lazy to do that many   :lol:

I don't really like playing on test much as I tend to get bored rather quickly, once this goes live tho I'm sure we'll figure out some better numbers.  

In after thought with my small sample size on the 10+ mobs I did have that annoying fabled spider add in somewhere, not sure if "raid" namers such as that fabled spider will always see through FD causing a fail anyways?  


On a side note I did manage to use it on the run, by run i mean just holding down the up arrow, and it worked sometimes.  Other times I still flopped but got the fd failed cause you moved message so it seems it's not a 100% fail if your running.


Offline k9wazere

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #155 on: April 12, 2010, 04:19:08 PM »
Its a deaggro tool, not a pulling tool. That is the problem you are having with understanding it seems. Beastlords aren't supposed to be pullers...
Quote from: Elidroth
The warder will not be included this pass because I don't want this ability to be used as a pulling tool. It's designed as an escape plan only.

De-aggro tool or escape plan? Who is right?

Offline Bumkus

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #156 on: April 12, 2010, 05:06:12 PM »
Its a deaggro tool, not a pulling tool. That is the problem you are having with understanding it seems. Beastlords aren't supposed to be pullers...
Quote from: Elidroth
The warder will not be included this pass because I don't want this ability to be used as a pulling tool. It's designed as an escape plan only.

De-aggro tool or escape plan? Who is right?

I call it 6 parts de-aggro, 3 parts escape and 1 part pulling tool.

Offline Hzath

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #157 on: April 12, 2010, 05:20:49 PM »
Bumkus is most right, but I'd say 6-2-2, or maybe 5-2-3.  Designing something a certain way doesn't mean it will end up like that in practice.
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Offline wildwaters

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #158 on: April 12, 2010, 05:34:12 PM »
I forsee 'tuning' and no further upgrades if this gets used as a pulling tool instead of a deaggro tool. It seems the devs are making it more of a habit to implement things poorly and then go back and nerf them rather than doing it properly to begin with and that makes this sort of tool a potential thorn. Or so it seems to me.

Offline k9wazere

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #159 on: April 12, 2010, 05:37:34 PM »
If it is a de-aggro tool, I agree that it is totally the wrong implementation. It's like calling Gate a de-aggro tool. Sure, that works, but it's not the best way of losing aggro, especially if you're the healer :p

Offline Bumkus

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #160 on: April 12, 2010, 05:44:51 PM »
Bumkus is most right, but I'd say 6-2-2, or maybe 5-2-3.  Designing something a certain way doesn't mean it will end up like that in practice.

The reason I only gave it a 1 for pulling is because 1) we lose our warder if we use it to separate a mob from the pack and 2) because we need to stay down for a minute to wait for aggro to clear.

Basically it's ok for tag team pulling with a box or another player, but it's not great for pulling solo.

Mage fade will have a lot more flexibility.  For comparison, I'd rank theirs at a 3 for pulling.

On the ohter hand I think FD makes a better escape than Fade since we can stay down more and avoid ae and aggro during raid wipes.

Offline Camikazi

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #161 on: April 12, 2010, 05:47:31 PM »
Its a deaggro tool, not a pulling tool. That is the problem you are having with understanding it seems. Beastlords aren't supposed to be pullers...
Quote from: Elidroth
The warder will not be included this pass because I don't want this ability to be used as a pulling tool. It's designed as an escape plan only.

De-aggro tool or escape plan? Who is right?

You'd think if it was an escape tool it would be 100% and longer recast, like all other escape tool AAs. As it is, this AA is de-aggro and part pulling, not an escape plan unless it is guaranteed to work, which it is not.




Offline Catnip_Inny

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #162 on: April 12, 2010, 05:52:43 PM »
I have to agree, it was said by the DEVS that they wanted us to have an escape ability... if we cant escape for shit unless we are 1 on 1 with a mob... then its not so useful for the function they see it being used for...

honestly having this for deaggro is almost useless i think... when i bind chameleon strike with asp, i suspect my aggro issues will be just fine considering i can also use Roar and have maxed SCS....

that is of course if bradam is accurate :)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 05:56:46 PM by Catnip_Inny »

Offline Bumkus

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #163 on: April 12, 2010, 06:07:27 PM »
I forsee 'tuning' and no further upgrades if this gets used as a pulling tool instead of a deaggro tool. It seems the devs are making it more of a habit to implement things poorly and then go back and nerf them rather than doing it properly to begin with and that makes this sort of tool a potential thorn. Or so it seems to me.
Wildwaters, you play an SK right?  So you might be more familiar with exactly how FD applies to pulling.  From what I gather, FD by itself is more a means to recover from a bad pull, as opposed to being the basis of the pull.

For example monks pull with mez, not FD.  Bards pull with Fade I guess.  A number of classes used DC pulling till it was recently fixed.  Even this was a combination of FD + another ability.

Do you see FD alone as a threat to the pulling classes?

Offline k9wazere

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #164 on: April 12, 2010, 07:07:10 PM »
Anything other than trivial splitting and you need a secondary ability, such as snare, root, mez, lull.

I guess we could do it with pet snare, but you'd have to keep sacrificing pets all the time.