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Author Topic: New AAs on Test!!!  (Read 53474 times)

Offline Bumkus

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #165 on: April 12, 2010, 07:28:41 pm »
Anything other than trivial splitting and you need a secondary ability, such as snare, root, mez, lull.

I guess we could do it with pet snare, but you'd have to keep sacrificing pets all the time.

I thought about pet snare, but it would be worn off by the time aggro cleared from FD.  I don't think that will add much for solo pulling.

Offline Mazame

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #166 on: April 12, 2010, 07:51:48 pm »
mez, Lull, snare . root. pacify are the key tools of pulling FD is to clear the aggro after the mob has been trapped so that other mobs walk back.


Pocket pet make a new pet and buff him with HoS / block like.

pull group of mobs, tab over and pet pet on one having it taunt. kite the others and when FD procs with out fail then /dismiss pet. the one your pet was fighting will be snared and away from the other mobs  the ones you kited will walk back. when they return to there spawn point  you can stand and the one your pet was on will come solo.

ya not the best way to pull but will work if your soloing.

the other trick is to use range item to tag / FD stand  tag FD untill you split one off .. again with lots of FD fails not a good way to pull.


the Dev said they didn't want us to use it to pull. and I find max range with slow I can pull most things that are spaced right. and body pull works well. and so I never need FD to pull before.

Offline wildwaters

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #167 on: April 12, 2010, 07:58:02 pm »
I forsee 'tuning' and no further upgrades if this gets used as a pulling tool instead of a deaggro tool. It seems the devs are making it more of a habit to implement things poorly and then go back and nerf them rather than doing it properly to begin with and that makes this sort of tool a potential thorn. Or so it seems to me.
Wildwaters, you play an SK right?  So you might be more familiar with exactly how FD applies to pulling.  From what I gather, FD by itself is more a means to recover from a bad pull, as opposed to being the basis of the pull.

For example monks pull with mez, not FD.  Bards pull with Fade I guess.  A number of classes used DC pulling till it was recently fixed.  Even this was a combination of FD + another ability.

Do you see FD alone as a threat to the pulling classes?

I have been thinking about this more lately then when it was first anounced. I would say the 'threat' is more to the beastlord than the pulling classes.

First off it wasn't intended as a pulling tool, Eldiroth made that clear. The problem is once you figure out a way to use it that way and it becomes wide spread then you open the ability to stagnation or out right nerfing. The problem with that being that a stagnant ability is a weak ability and having so many deaggro tools may block you from gaining a truly useful one or getting the upgrades you need to existing abilities.

Do I see this as a pulling tool and a threat to pullers? No I do not. I doubt the other classes do but I'll lay you nickles to pickles and popsicles that monks will find a reason to complain about it to get themsleves powered up or beastlords powered down.

On the pullling side of things I think sks and monks do it very differently. Where FD might be a means to recovery for monks it is more important for sks and necros who use the FD mechanism is an integral part of the pulling strategy.
Basically snare lasts longer than it takes aggro to fade. So you snare and run far enough away that the snared mob will reach a distance from it's original spawn point that will allow it to be pulled single and then you FD. So after aggro clears all the mobs path back and your mob just stands there looking stupid until you tag and pull it.

There is also one other thing to note. With the new extended target window and a little patience you can pull a mob single without snaring it. It seems to me that they totally changed the way that aggro loss works... it used to be the mob you hit was the first to fade, now it is the last to fade, but actually for snare pulling that makes it easier to split things. I won't bother explaining cause the post is getting long.

Anyway, FD as a pull tool will be slow and inefficient, as deaggro... well it will be effective but it will impact your dps. Those lost melee rounds and nuke or two while you are down will add up over a fight where you need to lose aggro more than once.

In my opinion FD is a poorly thought out deaggro option and is not an escape option unless you have corresponding ranks in willful death type aa's which opens a whole nother can of worms.

Look at how sks/necros use it for deaggro. We dot, dot, dot, nuke, get aggro and fd for a few seconds. The thing is neither class dpses the way a beast does. We don't have to cast as much or hit as many aggro inducing abilities to do our jobs. If we get aggro we can FD for a few seconds and it won't impact our performance at all. Monks, being melee dps, are impacted when they have to fd to lose aggro. That is why some of the parse whores will wait for the tank to taunt rather than fd. The time they are down will effect thier dps plain and simple.

So to sum up

1) no, fd is not a threat to other pullers
2) it can probably be used and probably shouldn't be used to pull
3) it is a so so deaggro ability
4) it is a weak escape ability
5) it has the potential to cause a lot of grief in terms of stagnation, and some classes will likely never let your class forget you have it.
6) beastlord dps is done in such a way that Fd will have an impact on it. It may not be huge but it will be there.

I don't think that pulling is an issue here but it will likely have an impact on the discussion.

The issue is how many poor deaggro abilities do you want? And do you want deaggro abilities that impact your dps in any manner no matter how small it may be? /shrugs these are just my thoughts.

Offline Zunar

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #168 on: April 12, 2010, 08:17:42 pm »
Well...there's plenty of ways to pull already without FD, so I for one don't care much about the possibility to use this for pulling at all.

berserkers can pull..just throw a snare axe on desired mob and fade...
rangers have several ways with roots, snares and cover tracks....
clerics can root and atone the adds or pacify add and pull desired mob.
druids can root/snare succor and run back to single mob
paladins got root...not sure how their pacify works these days...root mob, zone out, and back in
Shadowknights can snare + FD
necromancers can snare + FD
Magicians can use pets and now will be able to fade
rogues, who are also top dps can use mez/blur trap to pull
wizards got a great root to CC and snare...with evac they can lose agro off adds
shamans got VP and other roots. with bind/gate they can lose agro
enchanters are kings of pulling now...what can't they do :)
monks don't even need FD for pulling now, since they can mez+blur anything
bards are of course king of pulling with monks.

so.....except for warriors we're the last class in EQ not having any kind of tools to use except.....slow, which is crappy today in EQ. Somebody...please explain to monks how we shouldn't recieve FD, even if it would have some ghetto pulling ability involved :P
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 08:20:00 pm by Zunar »

Offline Sikkem

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #169 on: April 12, 2010, 08:26:19 pm »
the other trick is to use range item to tag / FD stand  tag FD untill you split one off .. again with lots of FD fails not a good way to pull. 

This was one of the old methods for pulling run speed immune ot highly resistant mobs so I assume it would still work. The key was getting the mob you had directly aggroed close enough to you that it would stay longer than the other mobs. Some pulls took a very long time this way, I remember spirocs in TD being a real pain.

I asked Elidroth about the desrciption and the fail rate his answer was
Quote
The 20% chance is all there is. The rest is 'in character' text for flavor.
So the good news is I and the description is wrong and mobs will not see through Possum it's just the success rate and spells to worry about.


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Offline Grbage

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #170 on: April 12, 2010, 08:28:30 pm »
I forsee 'tuning' and no further upgrades if this gets used as a pulling tool instead of a deaggro tool. It seems the devs are making it more of a habit to implement things poorly and then go back and nerf them rather than doing it properly to begin with and that makes this sort of tool a potential thorn. Or so it seems to me.
Wildwaters, you play an SK right?  So you might be more familiar with exactly how FD applies to pulling.  From what I gather, FD by itself is more a means to recover from a bad pull, as opposed to being the basis of the pull.

For example monks pull with mez, not FD.  Bards pull with Fade I guess.  A number of classes used DC pulling till it was recently fixed.  Even this was a combination of FD + another ability.

Do you see FD alone as a threat to the pulling classes?

FD by itself works quite well for pulling/breaking camps. All the FD classes have been doing it for years. The extra pulling tools like mez are a more recent addition to the game. I'm not the best puller on my necro but that is skill. Give a 100% FD to someone who is good at pulling and voila, bst are now pullers.
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Offline nedoirah

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #171 on: April 12, 2010, 08:51:24 pm »
I don't want to become a puller class. We're spread to thin as it is. I can see FD as a decent deagro tool but rather would see improvementsl to existing deagro tools like bite of the asp or roar of thunder. Roars only problem is the nuke component outweighs the deagro component.

Offline Bumkus

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #172 on: April 12, 2010, 09:03:30 pm »
So to sum up
1) no, fd is not a threat to other pullers
2) it can probably be used and probably shouldn't be used to pull
3) it is a so so deaggro ability
4) it is a weak escape ability
5) it has the potential to cause a lot of grief in terms of stagnation, and some classes will likely never let your class forget you have it.
6) beastlord dps is done in such a way that Fd will have an impact on it. It may not be huge but it will be there.
Thanks for the well thought out and organized post.  But I am still a little confused.  If points 1,3,4 and 6 are true, why would you have concerns about it being used to stagnate us, especially given that every other class has some method of shedding aggro.

Offline Mazame

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #173 on: April 12, 2010, 10:52:48 pm »
Quote
So to sum up

1) no, fd is not a threat to other pullers
2) it can probably be used and probably shouldn't be used to pull
3) it is a so so deaggro ability
4) it is a weak escape ability
5) it has the potential to cause a lot of grief in terms of stagnation, and some classes will likely never let your class forget you have it.
6) beastlord dps is done in such a way that Fd will have an impact on it. It may not be huge but it will be there

1) as I said before bst pulled before FD they can pull after it.  anyone can pull just some are more effective at it and if you have them in your group great. but I don't know of any group for a long time that said  we don't have a puller so were going to sit on our butt untill we find one.  if puller fill threatened it because they suck and are qq just to qq but don't understand the game.

2) if soloing you want to use it for a pull tool great. if you try and use it as a pull tool in a group your wasting your groups time and need to learn how to pull with out it.  I sorry but you can ask the Sk and monks I group with often if they are FD pulling and it to slow then I just start pulling. in grind groups you want a mob to kill you don't want to be waiting for one

3) it a great Deaggro ability.  1 key  = FD. /stand /assit warder /attack ..... you wont even miss a swing unless your computer lags  but then you probly miss the swing anyways

4) as a escape  it great if your not on the top of the hate list and you know a wipe is coming you can flop
If you are top on the hate list nothing you could do in the past would save you so this is a nice improvement over nothing

5) with all the mean of pulling in the game and all the ways to fade / drop aggro i don't feel it will make much diffrence who has a fade / fd or what ever. more so these day a deaggro tool can be used for travel more then pulling imo

6) Monks have FD and there DPS is already greater then our  if they was to QQ about FD  let them there plenty of ways to counter that argument.



Offline nedoirah

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #174 on: April 16, 2010, 01:21:02 pm »
Playing possum has been changed. It now allows a bst to be running and still have a chance for success. I bought it on live and it works.

<edit>
Hmm I think that was a bug cause I'm in time trying it out and it's giving me the no longer feigned cause you moved message.

<edit>
Ok I have it figured out. If you're running or walking using the autorun/autowalk key then you will flop with a normal success/failure chance. If you're runing or walking on manual then you will get the you have moved and no longer feigned message.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 01:37:03 pm by nedoirah »

Offline Grbage

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #175 on: April 16, 2010, 02:22:06 pm »
Sounds like a bug to me. Problem is which is the buggy one?
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Offline nedoirah

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #176 on: April 16, 2010, 02:44:42 pm »
It's not a bug. I tested it out on live numerous times. As I said in my second edit, we can use it in autorun/autowalk and still have the normal chance to succeed. It's when we manually walk/run that we affect the play possum. Autowalk/autorun auto-cancels when anything would normally interrupt walking/running. I.E. dismounting, ducking (not 100% sure of this one), FD.

Offline bradam

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #177 on: April 16, 2010, 04:13:09 pm »
You guys notice pretty much everything resists Chameleon Strike?  Haven't tried it out side of UF T8 zones yet tho


Offline Bumkus

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #178 on: April 16, 2010, 04:30:57 pm »
You guys notice pretty much everything resists Chameleon Strike?  Haven't tried it out side of UF T8 zones yet tho
I got a lot of resists in Old Bloodfileds last night, but I heard on Sony forums that deagro portion is unresistable, so you still get benefit if resisted.

But I don't know what the second part of the AA does.  It is supposed to reduce the damage added by further attacks.  does this only apply to melee aggro?

Offline Catnip_Inny

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Re: New AAs on Test!!!
« Reply #179 on: April 16, 2010, 04:35:28 pm »
4) as a escape  it great if your not on the top of the hate list and you know a wipe is coming you can flop
If you are top on the hate list nothing you could do in the past would save you so this is a nice improvement over nothing

does basic FD/PP fail if your cast on with an AE? if so kinda makes this a lot less useful on raids as an escape tool.  most mobs have some form of AE and im wondering if we are going to hit PP and think were safe then go SPLAT :)

also,

not sure if someome posted this yet but the fail msg seems to be "has fallen to the ground", when I dont get that msg and I just get the "you play dead" msg I know it worked.