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Proposed changes to new AAs on test (that's right, already)

Started by Hzath, April 02, 2010, 06:38:47 PM

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Hzath

Making a new thread with my actual suggestions for making those AAs into something that won't make me quit.  I'm an evil high end raider, so most of my ideas are focused in this realm (which I also believe to be our weakest point right now).

Unknown DB String 0-1 (Feign Death/Playing Possum)


Currently the AA is a 30second refresh and has a 60% success rate per Tadenea, my short testing with the AA though unscientific agree with this and will use 60% for argument's sake.

60% is a rather high fail rate, and in most grouping situations a failed FD will lead to the beastlord running around, possibly causing a train, for 30 seconds and attempting again.  The issue is that after 30 seconds there is still a 16% chance of two successive fails.  After one minute the odds of failing 3 times in a row is down to 6.4%, something fairly reasonable after one minute IF we hadn't been running around with 5-7k hitters chasing us.  The current fail rate/recast I feel will lead to lots of collateral damage.

3 Proposed Options


1. As a mainly raider/solo beast I would like to see it turned into an emergency AA.  Long (20-30minute) refresh with 100% success rate and ideally fortification against spells breaking the FD.

2. Raise the recast time to 1 minute and raise the success rate to 85%.  After one minute's time, the odds of two successive fails would be 2.25%, however there would be a one minute interval without another attempt as opposed to 30 seconds.  The decrease in trains created would be lowered quite a bit, and this would be my second favorite option.

2. Lower the success rate to 50%, and lower the recast to 10 seconds.  I'm not so much a fan of this one, but if they absolutely insist on keeping the success rate at a low % I strongly feel the recast needs to be lowered.

Cat-like Reflexes (improved safe fall)
This AA is so full of fail I can't even begin...it's beyond belief that anyone could be convinced of this having practical usefulness at this stage in the game (level 81 required, btw).  This really needs scrapped for a new AA.

Proposed Idea

It's my strong belief that one of our areas that really needs improvement is our short term burn dps.  We're a decent amount behind rangers, and even bards have the potential to out-burst us right now.  If I'm mistaken and some of you are out there bursting for 16-18k consistently please inform me of my error, and then tell me in game what I'm doing wrong.  That said, I feel we could use a 2000-3000 DPS added to our 60second burn ability just to remain competitive with rangers.  The reason we can't burn is we don't have abilities to increase all the facets of our damage, we can only increase melee and spells (via 7th/glyphs).

The AA I'm suggesting could be called something like "Essential Swarm" and would ensure that the next 3 swarm pet casts would all have the jackpot 4x pet version.  I think this would make up approximately the amount of damage we're lacking.  It could also be argued, that this doesn't technically increase our maximum potential it just removes the major lottery aspect.

Chameleon Strike (deagro+small damage)


Assuming FD gets worked into a reasonable, useful tool we no longer have the need for 4 different deagro AAs.  I would like to see this turned into some sort of increased raid desirability AA.  The problem, however, is that almost every useful way form of attributed DPS or mob debuff has already been handed out.  

Proposed Idea

Cobra Strike - this damage over time ability will leave the target afflicted with a poison that leaves them more susceptible to future poisonous attacks.  Basically increase incoming poison damage by say 10%.  Every other resist type has something to this effect, but I couldn't find one for poison.  If I missed it from being tired I'm going to cry.  Poison is actually a great utility with all of the rogue poisons going around and of course our own personal poison spells.  Set the duration to 24seconds and the refresh at 1 minute so that two beastlords can mostly keep it going on a mob, but a raid would require 3 for full time effect.

Beastlord Community Round Table representative.  Feel free to PM me or contact me in game (Drinal.Hzathz) about anything you think needs attention.

k9wazere

Eh, OK. I'll just copy+paste my reply in your first thread, then :D

"My biggest problem with dying as a Bst was always re-gearing the pet (find a mage... bother the mage... again and again... lose friends, etc :p)

The XP loss, etc, doesn't bother many of us any more I'm sure.

If we could have an "escape" AA for the pet, which made it persist through *our* death, to re-accompany us at our bind point, that would be more awesome for me than FD.

Although I do like the idea of safely making ninja-AFK'ing more safe :p"

Mazame

WOW can people not be happy with what they get some times? and can people not remember what the Dev said??

if I recall it was some thing along the line he not going to put in aa that going to put him out of a job.. he put in aa that latter on can be improved on. 

We get FD.. that alone is a huge step do you want to go QQing about that already so it get pulled even before it go live?? let it go live and know that once we have the skill then it can always be improved on latter at least we got it.

Look at necro, monks and Sk their FD is not that much better. what makes their FD good is the extra aa lines they get to improve it. do you want to get a perfect FD from the start and have all the other class bitch so they figger it not worth the effort to give us the aa to start with.  the AA not even named yet it be simple for them to pull it from us.



this is why the devs didn't post them soon  too many ppl QQing. just take what you get be happy and make it work. 

k9wazere

Mazame. As you know, when we get skills that other classes have had, it creates a *£_)storm of complaints against us.

Instead of just watching this unfold (again), maybe we could agree on something more unique than FD that fits the class better?

I personally never, ever expected Bsts to get FD. And I don't want us to be a pulling class, really.

bradam

I'm kinda with Mazame on this one..  let FD/possum/whatever its called go live and lets see how it pans out.  We can always work on getting AA's to improve it later  =)


Does the chamelon strike one share a time with asp/raven/anything else?  Dunno about your guys but I've run out of hotkey bars lol

As for safe fall...   :? :?

Camikazi

Quote from: bradam on April 02, 2010, 07:28:48 PM
I'm kinda with Mazame on this one..  let FD/possum/whatever its called go live and lets see how it pans out.  We can always work on getting AA's to improve it later  =)
I'd rather get it to a more usable state now, before too many classes start complaining and cause devs to not touch the AA again for 4-5 years cause of them. Let's face it when it comes to getting AAs improved, we have not done well, we either get ignored or other classes complain and jumble up the threads so useful info is easily lost, waiting for things to go in and give people chance to find reasons to nerf them s not a good thing to do, get them working quick before anything bad can happen. Worst that can happen is they will keep the AA as is since I doubt they will just remove it out of annoyance.




kharthai

I am fine with either of Hzath's first two suggestions for FD, though if it's the first I'd rather it be more like a 15 min refresh, to keep it in line with the other similar aggro dropping abilities.

Hzath

Quote from: bradam on April 02, 2010, 07:28:48 PM
Does the chamelon strike one share a time with asp/raven/anything else?  Dunno about your guys but I've run out of hotkey bars lol

No it doesn't share a recast with anything.  That's why it's frustrating.  If these AAs go live we now have 4 ways to reduce hate.  We don't need 4 ways to reduce hate, just like we don't need 6 pet heals.  We need 1 or 2 good abilities, we have to stand up and fix this problem while it's still in testing phase, we don't need another issue like we have with pet heals...you see how well we're doing on fixing those.  In my opinion once these go live it's game over till next expansion, I could be wrong but that's the way we should approach this issue.
Beastlord Community Round Table representative.  Feel free to PM me or contact me in game (Drinal.Hzathz) about anything you think needs attention.

Sikkem

Quote from: Mazame on April 02, 2010, 07:13:30 PM
WOW can people not be happy with what they get some times?
Yeah I and I am pretty sure a lot more can.

For 6 years we have been asking for a fairly simple thing. A way to lower us on the hate list reliably and successfully, a jolt if you will.

This is just another abilty in what is starting to become a long line that doesn't meet that requirement even on the drawing board.

If I had a simple Jolt I would be very happy with this and be happy to see upgrades in the future.

I dont.


Sikkem - 90 Beastlord - Bertox

Khauruk

Quote from: Hzath on April 02, 2010, 08:11:49 PM
Quote from: bradam on April 02, 2010, 07:28:48 PM
Does the chamelon strike one share a time with asp/raven/anything else?  Dunno about your guys but I've run out of hotkey bars lol

No it doesn't share a recast with anything.  That's why it's frustrating.  If these AAs go live we now have 4 ways to reduce hate.  We don't need 4 ways to reduce hate, just like we don't need 6 pet heals.  We need 1 or 2 good abilities, we have to stand up and fix this problem while it's still in testing phase, we don't need another issue like we have with pet heals...you see how well we're doing on fixing those.  In my opinion once these go live it's game over till next expansion, I could be wrong but that's the way we should approach this issue.


This.  Upgrade abilities, don't make more new ones.
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Nusa

Quote from: Sikkem on April 02, 2010, 08:20:15 PM
Quote from: Mazame on April 02, 2010, 07:13:30 PM
WOW can people not be happy with what they get some times?
Yeah I and I am pretty sure a lot more can.

For 6 years we have been asking for a fairly simple thing. A way to lower us on the hate list reliably and successfully, a jolt if you will.

This is just another abilty in what is starting to become a long line that doesn't meet that requirement even on the drawing board.

If I had a simple Jolt I would be very happy with this and be happy to see upgrades in the future.

I dont.

Psst...FD, even a 60% FD, is a HUGE deaggro tool. Monks use it all the time for that purpose. It may be a less wonderful as a pulling tool, but even there it can be useful. But I don't see how we can whine about not becoming a primary pulling class. We aren't. I'd be happy with FD as described and agree with Mazame. It's way too early to bitch ourselves out of something useful before we even get it.

Umlat

OK - cynical first -- Even assuming they listen/read, we know they won't change anything -- witness Friendly Pet.

As far as (Improved) Safe Fall goes, any suggestions I have made were with the intent that the skills Safe Fall/Hide/Sneak/Tracking/Forage should be given to us as a PACKAGE. By nature, we function as PREDATORS ... having the skill set to do be just that should be there. Also, if this is in fact meant to improve Safe Fall, will it actually do anything for non Vah Shir? The only thing I get as a barbarian these days is penalties, not bonuses. I get to eat more, have sucky human vision, a 50 skill that shares a timer with kick and can't be used and some bonus resists that haven't mattered for months, since they don't increase the caps. The most annoying thing about this AA is that it probably took up a noticeable amount of dev time to make it work and test it etc., rather than just having us spend a couple AA to get safe fall as a skill at level 51, which already worked.

Feign Death will probably end up in MORE deaths, not less. We will be susecptible to spell/AE damage to break it, which will happen LONG before anyone forgets about us, so instead of having a running chance on a bad solo pull, we're lying down while the mobs are charging in. It makes no provision for us to save warder - No beastlord worth being one is going to flop down KNOWING his/her bonded companion is going to die as a result. If we had the Pet Fade ability Mages are supposed to be getting to go with it, sure, it might be workable. To be brutally honest, in a lot of UF zones, getting up from a successful FD with no warder is simply prolonging the death process. Wandering mobs, see invis mobs etc., are all going to prevent a re summoning with proper buffs and even something to bounce growl off of is going to be hard to pull off in a number of cases. IThis travesty of an ability is a result of people saying they'd be willing to sacrifice their warder to live. Giving the devs an easy way out was bad, now we're going to have to beg for the improving AAs in the future, which will then cut down on anything else we could get at that time. So we're going to lag behind other classes in abilities even MORE in the future.

DPS?!?! Gees, our sustained and burst dps would have gotten better with FLURRY. Flurry is a DPS ability, 100%. We don't get it, yet every other melee and hybrid class DOES. Any arguement that we shouldn't get because our pet has it is GARBAGE. SKs, a tanking class, get both, for one. Secondly, given the fact that our pets are probably between 10 and 20 per cent of our DPS including flurry and the fact that even non melee class pets get flurry, using this as the reason will let everyone push us between 3 different roles for denying us stuff. They call us DPS to deny us utility abilities, Utility to block DPS abilities. Add in a 3rd way to stack the deck against us and we're finished.


Eldiroth doesn't want to give out some decent AAs because it will put him out of a job? Incompetence, neglect, stupidity or behavior that leads to the loss of revenue can do that just as easily.

Having a ranger or a mage doing our "liasing" with the devs, just doesn't cut it any more. A beastlord rep would have been able to object to the new friendly pet or suggest alternatives before it was finished and the devs wouldn't go back and change it. Also, there is too much conflict of interest for either of those classes to represent us in my opinion. Given the overlap in spheres of interest and power, it is far too likely for either of those classes to drop any good ideas off a beastlord list and onto thier own. Even the appearance of such can cause problems.

In the end - nothing was done to deal with the major outstanding issues from what I can see. We still lack the tools and skills to function properly in our solo role, we still have no area in which we exceed other classes, our pets are still lackluster, shrinking relative DPS is only getting worse thanks to things like a tank with imbued ferocity(Give them pet proc weapons and they can probably out parse us in pet damge given flurries etc.) Aggro issues are likely still as problematic as ever. We're even further behind the average in spells now, since they've added another to rangers. We still get screwed on defense since all hybrids get the same dodge skill. The short one shot nature of our defensive ability means next to nothing in UF. In raids, my first indication of aggro is generally you have been slain by X, since the mob immediatlely flips around, plows through a 5.7k ac and whatever paltry mitigation we get as a maximum to instantly do over 52k to 55k damage. I'm pretty sure I'm at least marginally competent as a beastlord and have  managed to optimize damage output as much as possible, but it doesn't make a difference. In guild raids, I'm always excluded from hard raids if there are too many people, because some other class can do a better job at whatever role a beastlord might be assigned. There are no other beastlord mains, and there is only a  low priority to recruit more. Regular raids, even cleric BOTS get a higher priority for a group...We've had several raids recently where there were numbers that didnt fit into gfull groups very well. 49 characters in raid and it makes more sense to toss the beastlord in solo that a bot healer.  I see burn fights where warriors and SKs out DPS me becasue they can still stack mostly, where most of our abilities either can't stack because they are split between us and our warders or because they are incompatible with each other.

I have played a beastlord almost exclusively since the early part of Luclin. I remember when it was hard to solo, because warder could out DPS you and KSed the xp off of light blue mobs you could barely kill. Grouping wasnt much of an option - it got to the point where you would see "Highkeep group seeks more, any class but bst pst". I spent a month doing what amounted to anthropological studies among the kerrans and kejek for lack of groups. Because of RL issues, I missed the high points of pet pulling and what have you, so I've only been the underdog. I'm fed up with seeing a new pet heal as my great new ability when things like Headshot or deathbloom are passed out. This is not "QQ"ing, this is genuine anger at seeing the same old systematic exclusion and marginalization of my chosen class being perpetuated AGAIN, for what seems to be nothing more than what appears to be extreme bias and pettiness on the part of the devs, as well as their total capitulation to the least little whining from any other class when they might have to share the stage a little or even worse, see us get something useful instead of them. We have had every unique class defining ability either sold out from under us over the years with little to nothing ever being reciprocated or it's been left to stagnate to uselessness as the game has evolved - and the devs have no problem admitting it and shrugging it off; look at our ferocity line. Our side doesn't even seem to merit any real response or dialogue to our concerns, never mind a place at the table. The lack of a beastlord among the Community Leaders, despite numerous applicants, has certainly made ignoring us that much easier.

If my posts end up as lengthy, it is only because the amount of crap that's been allowed to build up by SOE and the devs is at the point where the Augean Stables were pristine in comparison.

What would happen if you moved thiese circumstances to the real world and substituted "African-American" for "beastlord"? I doubt it would be all hapiness and smiles.

Sikkem

Quote from: Nusa on April 02, 2010, 11:05:33 PM
Psst...FD, even a 60% FD, is a HUGE deaggro tool. Monks use it all the time for that purpose. It may be a less wonderful as a pulling tool, but even there it can be useful. But I don't see how we can whine about not becoming a primary pulling class. We aren't. I'd be happy with FD as described and agree with Mazame. It's way too early to bitch ourselves out of something useful before we even get it.
Whilst I havent played a monk I did raid on an SK and Necro up till PoP and on those classes at least a failed fd never cleared aggro. Especially on my necro when we only had the Feign Death spell I got summoned a lot whilst lying down and it wasn't pretty.

If a monks FD manages to wipe aggro on a fail and ours follows the same path then I will be happy. But then what would a fail do? I also don't want to be a pulling class I want Jolt, just a plain simple Jolt with no bells and whisltes just a Jolt. Why is that so hard?

Considering how much gets denied or taken from us because we have slow how much worse is it going to be if we have a FD as well? The devs do listen to the other classes whining and do act upon it.


Sikkem - 90 Beastlord - Bertox

Nusa

How about a little less whining about it not being an easy button and a little understanding of what it does do? Of course a fail is a fail. That doesn't mean the success case isn't valuable.

If you want to attack something, pick on safe-fall. I'll agree that that adds almost no value in todays game.

Hzath

Nusa, you're still ignoring the crux of the matter with getting the FD AA.

THE REST OF OUR AAs ALSO DECREASE AGRO

If you assume that FD is fine as is, ok whatever we'll agree to disagree on this point for now, then HOW can you possibly be fine with Chameleon Strike and Hastened Asp/Raven/Gorilla also being part of our AA package?

Beastlord Community Round Table representative.  Feel free to PM me or contact me in game (Drinal.Hzathz) about anything you think needs attention.