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Proposed changes to new AAs on test (that's right, already)

Started by Hzath, April 02, 2010, 06:38:47 PM

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Sikkem

Quote from: Nusa on April 03, 2010, 11:35:01 AM
How about a little less whining about it not being an easy button and a little understanding of what it does do? Of course a fail is a fail. That doesn't mean the success case isn't valuable.

If you want to attack something, pick on safe-fall. I'll agree that that adds almost no value in todays game.

No one has asked for an easy button. We have been asking for a jolt type ability/spell for over 6 years. Considering also I have been playing fd classes either as a main or alt since kunark I would think I do have some understanding of what it does. You where the one trying to indirectly suggest that a failed fd still dropped aggro.

The only way a failed fd reduces our hate is because we are lying on the ground and not attacking, this will do wonders for our dps or do you know a way to still do damage to the mob whilst lying down?

So how about you have a little understanding of what a decent portion of the beastlord community has been asking for for the majority of the classes existance and still does not have. What we do have is 4 other abilities prior to these 2 that don't do the job properly, it is safe to assume these 2 in their current form won't either.

You apparently have a yearning to get a feign death for some reason and that is fine but don't try and pass it off as the answer to all our aggro problems when it clearly isn't.


Sikkem - 90 Beastlord - Bertox

Sikkem

Quote from: Hzath on April 03, 2010, 11:54:15 AM
If you assume that FD is fine as is, ok whatever we'll agree to disagree on this point for now, then HOW can you possible be fine with Chameleon Strike and Hastened Asp/Raven/Gorilla also being part of our AA package?

Lol you can just see a named fight now:
every 20 secs cast chameleon strike - expect resists to generate aggro
every 30 secs hit feign death - fail 40% of the time
every 50 secs hit asp/raven/gorilla - resists generates aggro
Cast Roar of Thunder - the effects basically cancels out the hate reduction

Tank dies beastlord gets smacked over the edge of some precipice and Catlike Reflexes saves his life  :evil:


Sikkem - 90 Beastlord - Bertox

kharthai

Quote from: Sikkem on April 03, 2010, 01:30:57 PM
every 20 secs cast chameleon strike - expect resists to generate aggro

every 50 secs hit asp/raven/gorilla - resists generates aggro

Maybe I'm wrong, but don't resists still reduce aggro?


Also, I agree that getting a bunch of jolts is overkill.  Meh.

Khauruk

Relax people, if you want to just bitch, put it in the rants section.
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Mazame

Quote from: Sikkem on April 03, 2010, 01:30:57 PM
Quote from: Hzath on April 03, 2010, 11:54:15 AM
If you assume that FD is fine as is, ok whatever we'll agree to disagree on this point for now, then HOW can you possible be fine with Chameleon Strike and Hastened Asp/Raven/Gorilla also being part of our AA package?

Lol you can just see a named fight now:
every 20 secs cast chameleon strike - expect resists to generate aggro
every 30 secs hit feign death - fail 40% of the time
every 50 secs hit asp/raven/gorilla - resists generates aggro
Cast Roar of Thunder - the effects basically cancels out the hate reduction

Tank dies beastlord gets smacked over the edge of some precipice and Catlike Reflexes saves his life  :evil:

Ok I for one don't have the aggro problem that most of you tend to QQ about, before beta when you all asked for jolt I didn't say much cause figered ether way no big deal.  so the last 6 months every time AA are talked about  a lot of Bst have ASKED for Deaggro.  and so some changes were made to asp/raven/grollia. yet this didn't make any of you happy so you QQ more and now they given us another one chameleon strike.  and I sorry but if your still pulling aggro maybe you need to relook at how you are playing before you ask for more AA that are not needed. and if you feel these are not enuff again I say look at your self 1st because this idea that we have uncontrolable aggro is just wrong.


if you have trouble on a raid  a few steps you can take are 1 stand at max melee. unlike rog and monks our aa / spells  ect all work from max melee so we don't need to be front of the line we can be standing next to our pet and still do full damage.

2nd if you have aggro problems then use HOTT this will show you the MT life if he drops down to 20%  then hit your deaggros / back up

3rd if your dieing because your on ramp / or because the main tank dies and you were next on the hate list then talk to your guild.  for us we have knights  each raid on stand by if main tank drop the knights grab aggro asap and deflect untill next war can pick it up. because the knight used snap aggro he get it fast and when the new war pulls it off has built a lot of aggro that are melee are not getting killed.


ya the list could go on but the point being is that  if your going balls to the wall to be a parse whore rather then doing what you need to help the raid team by staying alive then your adding to the problem not helping it. and asking for a easy button to lose aggro is not the key imo  learn to watch more of whats going on know when to go all out and when to hold back and focus on staying alive.  we don't need a deaggro button. or at least I don't have a problem losing aggro.

in group I have times where I tank and holding aggro is more of a problem them losing it.  rog / wiz / bez are all hard to keep aggro from when they are burning. SK / war can always pull and hold aggro even when I trying to take it. they tell me I make them work for it but they can do it.

EQ old school  used to be about taking what a class had and making it work. most people today seam to want an easy button for everything.




.................................



FD  may not be a pulling tool to start but often in group with the fewer ppl playing  it harder to find a puller.  so to add that skill as some thing we can do in a pinch I feel is a great idea that over time will get better.

as for deaggro. if you have that much trouble with aggro then ya it one more tool u can use to lose aggro.



k9wazere

Our damage-to-aggro ratio is not good tho is it.

Pulling aggro from the tank whilst doing half the DPS of the other DPS classes (who aren't pulling aggro) was always a bone of contention.

Haven't looked into it deeply, but didn't someone find that Harrow has a massive aggro component well above and beyond the damage it was doing? I seem to recall that I stopped using it for a while because of that.

Hzath

Forray has a fixed hate value of 1006 compared to Calanin's Synergy's  1.

Setting the hate value to 1 would lower our agro generation by 35.3hate/second, compared to 58.3hate/second currently lost from asp it would be a significant improvement.

I agree it's out of whack, theirs does tons more damage, for less agro, and almost the same endurance cost.
Beastlord Community Round Table representative.  Feel free to PM me or contact me in game (Drinal.Hzathz) about anything you think needs attention.

Camikazi

Quote from: Hzath on April 03, 2010, 06:40:26 PM
Forray has a fixed hate value of 1006 compared to Calanin's Synergy's  1.

Setting the hate value to 1 would lower our agro generation by 35.3hate/second, compared to 58.3hate/second currently lost from asp it would be a significant improvement.

I agree it's out of whack, theirs does tons more damage, for less agro, and almost the same endurance cost.

It's been there since Rake, for some reason devs figured our skill attack should have added aggro for some odd reason I have never figured out. Now every upgrade we get gives us more and more aggro, making our already lacking deaggro abilites less efficient.

Next Foray upgrade should be fun, if they keep the standard upgrade it should be 1600 added aggro for the rank 3 of it.




Sikkem

Quote from: Mazame on April 03, 2010, 06:20:56 PM
EQ old school  used to be about taking what a class had and making it work. most people today seam to want an easy button for everything.

For the life of me I cannot figure out why people think having a jolt spell is easy mode, especially when we have been after it for over 6 years.

When we got Roar of Thunder 6 years ago the community wanted it changed to be a useful jolt spell as well. No one wants 20 de aggro spells, they just want one that does the job well.  In my old guild I was the only beastlord, I would very rarely be in the top 10 yet still the first one to die if the tank died, that is just wrong.

Oh and for the record old school EQ aggro was broken as all hell, don't believe me ask a necro pre AA's and dot changes when one dot cast when a mob was at 75% health would take aggro of the tank when a wizzie chain nuking from 95% and critting couldn't.

As for being a parse whore, not me I am one of the first to admit I am not a great dps beastlord. Apart from lacking a lot of the AA"s I loved the class for the utility and variety it brought to the game. I am rarely in the top 6 in our parses and a fair way behind our other beastlord. If I was parse whore I would still be playing my necro and most probably laughing at everyone elses dps figures in private like old school necros used to.

I am really hoping this Chameleon strike does the job but on past experiences I will not hold my breath.


Sikkem - 90 Beastlord - Bertox

Camikazi

Quote from: Sikkem on April 03, 2010, 01:30:57 PM
Quote from: Hzath on April 03, 2010, 11:54:15 AM
If you assume that FD is fine as is, ok whatever we'll agree to disagree on this point for now, then HOW can you possible be fine with Chameleon Strike and Hastened Asp/Raven/Gorilla also being part of our AA package?

Lol you can just see a named fight now:
every 20 secs cast chameleon strike - expect resists to generate aggro
every 30 secs hit feign death - fail 40% of the time
every 50 secs hit asp/raven/gorilla - resists generates aggro
Cast Roar of Thunder - the effects basically cancels out the hate reduction

Tank dies beastlord gets smacked over the edge of some precipice and Catlike Reflexes saves his life  :evil:

Resists do generate aggro, but only in the same direction the fully landed spell would have, meaning a negative aggro spell (a Jolt) will still lower your aggro resist or not. Just like a resisted nuke will give full base aggro a resisted jolt will drop your aggro by full amount.




Sharrien

I think we should wait and see what FD turns out to be before we ask for changes.  Give it a month of use first.

Cat Like Reflexes should be taken back.  Useless waste.  I would rather see an increase in ranks for Destructive Fury or Extended Swarm.
Savage Spirit Sharrien Dreamstalker
Primal Elementalist Ravingronn Blazewarden
Maelin Starpyre

Hzath

Quote from: Sharrien on April 04, 2010, 03:27:19 AM
I think we should wait and see what FD turns out to be before we ask for changes.  Give it a month of use first.

For those who have this opinion, I want to remind you about friendly pet in hopes you reevaluate the merit of the "wait and see" approach.
Beastlord Community Round Table representative.  Feel free to PM me or contact me in game (Drinal.Hzathz) about anything you think needs attention.

Mazame

Quote from: Hzath on April 04, 2010, 03:32:33 AM
Quote from: Sharrien on April 04, 2010, 03:27:19 AM
I think we should wait and see what FD turns out to be before we ask for changes.  Give it a month of use first.

For those who have this opinion, I want to remind you about friendly pet in hopes you reevaluate the merit of the "wait and see" approach.


For those that have this idea that QQing will fix it or that telling the dev's how to fix it I would also like to point out the hundreds of post on "friendly pet" and how QQ / asking for fixes did for that spell

Hamtarro

Be happy with what we get? Seriously? If you want to be happy with what you get, feel free to not participate in these discussions. Those of us that care about the beastlord class will work on improving it, and you guys can be happy with what we get you.

FD is a stupid AA to give us in it's current form. It is just plain stupid, and anyone can see that. We have been asking for a solid  de-aggro ability for years now, and instead  we have four of them now that don't work worth a damn. Give us a higher de-aggro on maxed out roar of thunder. 3 ranks, massive boost to the hate reduction component. There. I just fixed the whole problem.
Hamtarro Baconator
<Grey Horizon>
Tunare Server

Umlat

Quote from: Sikkem on April 03, 2010, 01:30:57 PM
Quote from: Hzath on April 03, 2010, 11:54:15 AM
If you assume that FD is fine as is, ok whatever we'll agree to disagree on this point for now, then HOW can you possible be fine with Chameleon Strike and Hastened Asp/Raven/Gorilla also being part of our AA package?

Lol you can just see a named fight now:
every 20 secs cast chameleon strike - expect resists to generate aggro
every 30 secs hit feign death - fail 40% of the time
every 50 secs hit asp/raven/gorilla - resists generates aggro
Cast Roar of Thunder - the effects basically cancels out the hate reduction

Tank dies beastlord gets smacked over the edge of some precipice and Catlike Reflexes saves his life  :evil:

It should be "Tank dies beastlord gets smacked over the edge of some precipice and Catlike Reflexes would save his life if named mob didn't summon and squish him anyways."

<2k words actually cut out at this point>