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Beastlord Burst DPS

Started by Inphared, May 10, 2010, 02:54:17 AM

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Inphared

(Topic link just shows where he said it, topic isn't relevant) - http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=50&topic_id=163668&#2457659

Quote from: ElidrothThis is a bit off topic but BST burst ability is on my list of things to address.

Discuss!

Sikkem

Personally I ain't holding my breath because it they have promised things in the past and never delivered.

At least Elidroth has some form on the board with the changes made to Possum and Chameleon though.

Sadly my mind keeps expecting an outcome like Friendly Pet though.


Sikkem - 90 Beastlord - Bertox

Khauruk

#2
Good to hear.

There's a few ideas in recent spell threads (http://beastlords.org/index.php?topic=8747.0) and (http://beastlords.org/index.php?topic=8722.0).

A priority - minimize the number of new abilities to be activated.  The fix should consist of a replacement/upgrade to our current abilities and maybe one new one.  Beastlords are dying from the number of buttons we need to push to maximize our dps nowadays.  We work harder than any other class for our mediocre numbers.  Don't punish us further.

A priority - I think this shouldn't affect stacking from shaman epic (crit size, crit chance), Shaman third spire (accuracy, min damage), Bard Quick Time (hundred hands), Zerker aura (hundred hands).  Overlap with Bard overhaste would be nice, but I really don't want to farm another bit of bard utility out for ourselves.

Some noteables ideas from those threads above/my suggestions:
Empathic Fury (damage discipline which lands on pet and self) - needs an upgrade...it's worse than our AA-based damage disc now (Bestial Alignment), increase duration

Idea:  Feral Quickening - reduce reuse on feral swipe to almost nothing for certain amount of time. (similar to Heel of Kanji or Frenzied Backstab).  Don't do this to our Harrow/Rake line though please, due to the huge agro it would generate.  Needs to scale well between gear/AA levels though.

Idea:  Crit disc which stacks with our damage discs.  For us to get that high dps, we need to have some multiplicative stacking going on with our discs that we don't have.  This would be a big help, though raises stacking issues above.

Idea:  Sizeable spell crit disc combined with (if possible) guaranteed 4-procs from Yowl.  We cast tons already, and it's getting to the point where some spells like Yowl won't be worthwhile at times due to longer cast time (we're almost there now at the top end).  Make our casting more useful.  This also would obviously scale nicely as gear and AAs improve.

Request:  Approximately 20-25 minutes reuse (consistent with our other damage disciplines), perhaps after about 15 or so AAs to hasten if you feel necessary.
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Mazame

#3
Quote from: Inphared on May 10, 2010, 02:54:17 AM
(Topic link just shows where he said it, topic isn't relevant) - http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?start=50&topic_id=163668&#2457659

Quote from: ElidrothThis is a bit off topic but BST burst ability is on my list of things to address.

Discuss!



Discuss? do you want to know if we want burst dps .. yes we spend all of last year saying it was needed. or you asking how we want to go about burst dps?  or that fact that elidroth said he was looking into it that were discussing?

Edited for formating <Khauruk>

Hzath

#4
I hope that the new ability will be an upgrade to Frenzy of Spirit or a revamp of third spire.  Both are pretty minimal gains right now.  (Edit: I say this so that no new activated AA will be included, ideally something we already have gets upgraded or changed)

Like Khauruk said, it needs to be something that stacks with our current discs in a  multiplicative way (i.e. a bigger damage mod % will not do the job).  Looking to what other classes currently have for ideas:

Monks have speed focus, a large hundred hands effect.  Something like this would make sense on a second rank of frenzy of spirit, which already has 100% haste (to keep with the fast attack mindset of the ability).

Berserkers have savage spirit, a large critical damage mod enhancer.  This doesn't necessarily make sense anywhere, but I say make 3rd spire self only and make it something similar to savage spirit.

Rogues have frenzied stabbing, the feral quickening idea is a lot like this.  Feral swipe doesn't scale at all with gear though, which is our problem currently.

I have always been fond of the activated AA that guarantees 4x yowl pets for the next few casts.  However, pets scale poorly.

With our dps problems being mainly in the high end raid game I think the first 2 suggestions, HH effect or large critical damage mod are the best options because they will scale with weapon damage.
Beastlord Community Round Table representative.  Feel free to PM me or contact me in game (Drinal.Hzathz) about anything you think needs attention.

Khauruk

#5
Quote from: Hzath on May 10, 2010, 05:45:10 AM
Rogues have frenzied stabbing, the feral quickening idea is a lot like this.  Feral swipe doesn't scale at all with gear though, which is our problem currently.

If given as a disc, it has room for scaling, and can act (I think) as a damage bonus tied to Feral Swipe.  Code it with a 1st spire type effect limited to the SPA of Feral Swipe.

I'm concerned with upgrades being given as a disc, but it's what all the other melees have to deal with, so I guess we should too.

Whatever you do though, Elidroth, please put it on Test for a while so we can test the tuning..and please tune it with stacking of buffs/effects in mind, so we don't have to deal with nerfs later on.  If you're not sure what a bst would be stacking, ask one of us.  Nerfs, even when reasonable, are simply demoralizing.
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Hzath

Quote from: Khauruk on May 10, 2010, 06:16:27 AM
Quote from: Hzath on May 10, 2010, 05:45:10 AM
Rogues have frenzied stabbing, the feral quickening idea is a lot like this.  Feral swipe doesn't scale at all with gear though, which is our problem currently.

If given as a disc, it has room for scaling, and can act (I think) as a damage bonus tied to Feral Swipe.  Code it with a 1st spire type effect limited to the SPA of Feral Swipe.

I'm sure they could, but wouldn't that raise the same issue?  A bazaar geared bst with feral swipe AAs would gain almost the same benefit as one in Convorteum gear.  Sure the disc could be increased over time but that seems like it would just overpower us in the group game and/or not give enough boost at endgame.  For what it's worth I still think the AA is a cool idea and wouldn't mind seeing it added at some point.

I also wanted to add remove the recast from frozen venom.
Beastlord Community Round Table representative.  Feel free to PM me or contact me in game (Drinal.Hzathz) about anything you think needs attention.

Inphared

Quote from: Hzath on May 10, 2010, 06:42:07 AM
I also wanted to add remove the recast from frozen venom.

While I think this is a necessary thing, it wouldn't exactly improve burst quality. It would just raise our base DPS level by a pretty small number.

Just pointing that out before people jump on that bandwagon and then that's the only upgrade we get.

Hzath

You need to mainchange again and start posting some 17k parses just to reassure me it's possible.

Beastlord Community Round Table representative.  Feel free to PM me or contact me in game (Drinal.Hzathz) about anything you think needs attention.

Inphared

Quote from: Hzath on May 10, 2010, 07:53:00 AM
You need to mainchange again and start posting some 17k parses just to reassure me it's possible.

I don't think 17k is possible at this point, but I hit around 12k on a Badgers run (named only obviously) with no bard. Considering most DPS classes today are putting out numbers 17k and above, it wasn't anything worth noticing.

Khauruk

Quote from: Hzath on May 10, 2010, 06:42:07 AM
Quote from: Khauruk on May 10, 2010, 06:16:27 AM
Quote from: Hzath on May 10, 2010, 05:45:10 AM
Rogues have frenzied stabbing, the feral quickening idea is a lot like this.  Feral swipe doesn't scale at all with gear though, which is our problem currently.

If given as a disc, it has room for scaling, and can act (I think) as a damage bonus tied to Feral Swipe.  Code it with a 1st spire type effect limited to the SPA of Feral Swipe.
I'm sure they could, but wouldn't that raise the same issue?  A bazaar geared bst with feral swipe AAs would gain almost the same benefit as one in Convorteum gear.

That's what ranked discs are for.
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Thorgador

They want to give us more burst dps? start giving us same level of DA and TA as rangers and add flurry AA line.
Then make a new version of our burst discs and up their damage boost :

Empathic Fury BST/68:
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%
3: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 100% with All Skills

New Empathic Fury:

1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 200%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 500%
3: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 150% with All Skills

Or something really noticeable, just tune it to give X desired boost on burst dps

Unlink Bestial Fury from Empathic Fury (keeping them as non stacking), and make a new version of that disc:

Bestial Fury BST/60
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%

New Bestial Fury:

1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 200%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 500%

Or something really noticeable, just tune it to give X desired boost on burst dps

This "simple things" would up our burst dps tremendously.

thor

Quote from: Thorgador on May 10, 2010, 12:58:00 PM
They want to give us more burst dps? start giving us same level of DA and TA as rangers and add flurry AA line.
Then make a new version of our burst discs and up their damage boost :

Empathic Fury BST/68:
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%
3: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 100% with All Skills

New Empathic Fury:

1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 200%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 500%
3: Increase Chance to Critical Hit by 150% with All Skills

Or something really noticeable, just tune it to give X desired boost on burst dps

Unlink Bestial Fury from Empathic Fury (keeping them as non stacking), and make a new version of that disc:

Bestial Fury BST/60
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%

New Bestial Fury:

1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 200%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 500%

Or something really noticeable, just tune it to give X desired boost on burst dps

This "simple things" would up our burst dps tremendously.

I want Pet increased, i do not want to be a Ranger in leather armor with a pet not worth loading; increasing our melee skills to Ranger levels will insure this will happen.

So boost our pet (a Lot) then design a decent Disc around us and our pet.

Khauruk

#13
This level of tuning is much less likely to happen between expansion though, and I am hoping this would run live in a couple of months...if we can get a decent agreed upon suggestion to Elidroth.

So, suggestions not requiring coding support, not requiring large tuning of non-burst dps are a bit more likely to go live.
TURNCOAT!!!!!

Bumkus

The most straight forward fix to our last of Burst DPS is to jack up Emp Fury and Bestial Allignment big time.  They will actually need to be over-jacked, with the understanding that we will not be casting while under disc.

Even at current damage mods, larger % of the population are running in question whether they are losing dps if they cast under disc.  This will only get worse as weapon ratios increase.

We cannot ask for DA, TA, Pet DPS to adress Burst DPS.  these will create issues with our sustained DPS, which seems to be ok right now.

I would like to ask for DA, TA, Pet DPS and even reduced cast time on Yowl to 0.5 sec, but that needs to be handled completely separately.