Ferocity Revamp Proposals

[Umlat]

I've been looking at Ferocity line for a while, trying to upgrade it without really changing its effects too much. Simply making it an aura or a group spell isn't really going to do anything, since past the first couple iterations, most of the stats it provides bonuses for have hit their caps. Beyond simply increasing the numerical value of the effects, part of the improvement between spell levels includes a gradual increase in duration and a gradual decrease in cast time and refresh time. It should be easier to keep active on a small number of multiple targets without needing to add a group version. On the group level, it should be possible for a beastlord to keep up with himself warder and a couple of other group members without too much trouble, while at the raid level 2 or 3 beastlords should be able to keep a couple tanks and some melee DPS classes buffed through longer events. Prep time can increase the initial number of people with a Fero spell on them. The Twinproc bonus was chosen as a "new" increase to later versions because its at least semi plausible and more importantly, it hasn't been claimed by the "class defining" jihadists that abound in this game.

The end result if people like it and we can get it pushed through would be a spell that gives us a couple of unique abilities that would be desired by both tanks and melee DPS that still acts similar to Ferocity when it was originally introduced.

Anyway the table (sort of - formatting issues I'm feeling lazy about fixing - sigh):

Spell      Rank   Level   Mana   Cast   Recast   Dur.   Slot 5         Slot 7      Slot 8            Slot X         
Ferocity   1   65   600   3.0   120   6.5 min   Inc Sta by   40   Inc ATK 150   Inc all Resists by   65            
Fero. of Irionu   1   70   750   2.5   100   7.5 min   Inc Sta by   52   Inc ATK 187   Inc all Resists by   65            
Ruthless Fero.   1   75   900   2.0   95   8.0 min   Inc Sta by   62   Inc ATK 224   Inc all Resists by   67            
Ruthless Fero.   2   75   938   2.0   90   8.0 min   Inc Sta by   65   Inc ATK 234   Inc all Resists by   69            
Ruthless Fero.   3   75   975   2.0   85   8.0 min   Inc Sta by   68   Inc ATK 243   Inc all Resists by   71            
Vicious Fero.   1   80   1004   1.5   80   8.5 min   Inc Hero Sta by   35   Inc ATK 250   Inc Resist Caps by   40            
Vicious Fero.   2   80   1144   1.5   75   8.5 min   Inc Hero Sta by   40   Inc ATK 285   Inc Resist Caps by   50            
Vicious Fero.   3   80   1219   1.5   70   8.5 min   Inc Hero Sta by   43   Inc ATK 304   Inc Resist Caps by   55            
Savage Ferocity   1   85   1224   1.0   65   9.0 min   Inc Hero Sta by   45   Inc ATK 305   Inc Resist Caps by   60            
Savage Ferocity   2   85   1396   1.0   60   9.0 min   Inc Hero Sta by   50   Inc ATK 348   Inc Resist Caps by   70            
Savage Ferocity   3   85   1487   1.0   55   9.0 min   Inc Hero Sta by   53   Inc ATK 371   Inc Resist Caps by   75            
Rabid Ferocity   1   90   1506   1.0   50   9.5 min   Inc Hero Sta by   55   Inc ATK 375   Inc Resist Caps by   80   Twinproc Chance   +10%   
Rabid Ferocity   2   90   1716   1.0   45   9.5 min   Inc Hero Sta by   60   Inc ATK 425   Inc Resist Caps by   90   Twinproc Chance   +10%   
Rabid Ferocity   3   90   1829   1.0   40   9.5 min   Inc Hero Sta by   63   Inc ATK 450   Inc Resist Caps by   95   Twinproc Chance   +10%   

[Umlat]

If we want to fix this its now or next year IMO

[Catnip_Inny]

I like it its a lot like what i was thinking minus the twinproc! 

now how do we get the devs to listen...

[Sikkem]

I would prefer if it was focused as either a dps or a tank buff, not trying to be both. I can't speak for anyone else but I am having my first extended period since GoD where I am not the only Beastlord in a guild so the poor solo bst would have a right pain deciding who to keep it on.

Has anyone got a % increase to triple attack buff like the predator line for double attack? I also liked the idea that someone here had about adding a jolt effect to it so rogues and zerks could burst earlier with less chance of gaining aggro.

That being said I doubt the Devs will do anything, they couldn't even be bothered making it into a group spell to make it more useful why would they be bothered to actually do work on it.

All that being said I have no problems if you submit it.

[Hzath]

That looks like a tank buff.

[Mazame]

over cap resist  would be nice help block more of those AE so would be good for any class and hold true to the line.

the effect of attack are hard to see because of the limits on this spell I would like to see it ether as a group buff or double the attack that you have listed so that the effects can be seen due to the limited number of people it effects.


over cap stam to me is more of a bragging rights for the HP seekers. if this is to be a DPS buff give herioc str . if you want it as a tank buff give heroic agi. stam is 3rd on my list when I looking at heroics


adding twin proc is a bad idea it just going to take way from this buff in the long run. proc go off x time per min and yes twin proc will double that but what point dose it get that they say your twin procing to much so were going to nerf the proc rates.


I would rather see an improvement to double or tripple attack over twin proc

[Hamtarro]

Group Ferocity already exists!

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=19172

Oh, wait...
:roll:

P.S. Sorry, I do like what you're doing here, honest.

Gimme a group version 5/6/7% to triple attack, put it on a 5 minute timer with a 5 minute cool down so I can't do the whole raid, and I think you're starting to step toward letting beastlords get some utility back. For Christ's sake, Shaman have Unity, Healing, Lynx, Epic 2.0 etc. there is !!!NO!!! reason for them to whine about us getting a single good buff to cast other than purely for the sake of whining.

[nedoirah]

I can only remember really one single time i was asked to keep fero on a tank. That was back in the TSS days. Would be nice to see our stackable buff able to work with current content.

[bradam]

I like the group buff/aura versions of this myself, mainly because I hate mid fight on a raid having to stop what i'm doing, /tar melee_1, whose always out of range somehow, run around and find them, then cast fero on them.

[Umlat]

OK skip the twinproc bonus

Instead add :
Skill Damage Amount (x) -- increases the damage of all attacks by x amount - for everything from reg weapon skill attacks to kicks to skills like foray or AAs like raven claw or feral swipe. Ferocious things just hit harder.  :evil:
Skill Damage Taken (-y) -- decreases the damage caused by incoming attacks by y amount. Gets you so worked up you just don't feel the pain as much.  :x

Not sure how much x and y should be for each spell level and rank, but both should be high enough to have an effect that is noticeable/desirable in parses, without causing balance issues (it shouldn't, since any class would benefit).

The problem with things like double/triple attack bonus, v3 haste %, increased proc rate, etc. is that it would probably just get us the "Tell the beastlords to take a hike already" dev response number 3, aka "We've already assigned this type of ability buff to another class, thanks for trying.". Even if it didn't, the resulting effect would probably end up suffering from SV syndrome, where we'd end up with a middle of the road ability that would only be used when the others were not available.

Heroic Stamina instead of another stat is me trying to keep the spell as in line with the original version as possible while upgrading its effects. The exact amount of Attack added is a dev call, the numbers I used are approximations/guesses based on the existing pattern of buff amounts with some rounding off/up. I simply left Attack "as-is" and concentratd the improvements in other areas. You can think of the above mentioned "skill" buffs as the attack "improvement" I guess. :wink:

As to an Aura, A) they have said they don't want to give us one and B) it would prevent us from being able to use any of the Circle of (X) effects available from some clicky items currently, plus any possible ones added in the future.

With respect to a group version, while I am not opposed to one and would in fact LOVE to see one, I would rather have a good single target buff people will be asking us for because they WANT it for its effects instead of a mediocre group buff we'll have to cast by group where several people click it off and or complain about it. I think a good way to work it would be that the standard, single cast version is made available in the TSS/SoD/HoT(?) expansion that boosts the level cap, while the group version gets added in the TBS/UF/?? that adds the harder content/improvements for that level bracket.

SO modern Fero would end up being :

5 : Increase Heroic Stamina by (A)
7 : Increase Attack by (B)
8 : Increase All Resist Caps by (C)
X : Skill Damage Amount (x) [increase damage for all types of melee attacks, regular/skill/AA/disc/etc.)
Y : Skill Damage taken (-y) [reduce damage taken by y per attack]

X,Y would need to be chosen to cause the least amount of buff conflict possible, none being preferable, with all effects being stackable if possible.

If nothing else, I am trying to keep things shorter for the ADD crowd.  My attempts at complete explanations are not because I like to hear myself talk/type, but to try to minimize miscommunications that say, turn a small part of a larger idea into something we end up being given to us as a "major" improvement (like safe fall).

Get people to weigh in on this, since some people probably auto skip anything I write as a big time sink. When enough people do, we should flip a final proposed version off into a poll with Like it / Can live with it / Hate it as options. If the numbers end up looking good, then we can get the CL liason to take it in and push for it?

[Hzath]

Where you have suggested the increased resist caps I would prefer to see increase chance to resist spells +X %.  I just don't trust the resist system, mostly because I don't really know how it works, I would be happier seeing something that I know how much it is going to help.  The effect is already available from AAs and 12% from the bard song Dance of the Dragorn Rk. III and 20% from our GBA and BA, but those share a stacking slot.  Giving fero this effect instead in a different slot so it stacks with other buffs instead of raising resist caps how I would prefer to see it work if it were getting a change.

[Hamtarro]

I don't expect to get a ferocity aura, or if we did, I would expect rangers to receive an aura of equal or greater power.

[Sikkem]

Whilst I myself don't remember casting fero on a main tank since probably GoD days I like this idea with the change suggested by Hzath.

I wouldn't mind if we also dropped the attk part as slots seem to be in short supply these days.

Another option to add could be a mod to dodge (like the type 3 aug) instead of say a damage mod and make it a purely defensive buff. Main Tanks can never seem to have enough of them and would thus give us a role to fill on raids as well as being useful in groups and solo.

[Grbage]

Where you have suggested the increased resist caps I would prefer to see increase chance to resist spells +X %.  I just don't trust the resist system, mostly because I don't really know how it works, I would be happier seeing something that I know how much it is going to help.  The effect is already available from AAs and 12% from the bard song Dance of the Dragorn Rk. III and 20% from our GBA and BA, but those share a stacking slot.  Giving fero this effect instead in a different slot so it stacks with other buffs instead of raising resist caps how I would prefer to see it work if it were getting a change.

It's quite simple. If it is resistable we will resist it most the time. If the devs don't want us to resist it we wont. That's why adding resists or asking for X chance to resist a spell wont go through. Devs as a whole don't want us resisting raid mobs and they do that by adding a negative 1000 or more mod to detrimental spells.

I've read the explanation on resists but have forgotten it. Basically the ai compares our level to mobs level, factor in modifiers then roll a check. Once we are even con or above a mob in level it becomes hard for them to land a spell on us.

[Umlat]

Where you have suggested the increased resist caps I would prefer to see increase chance to resist spells +X %.  I just don't trust the resist system, mostly because I don't really know how it works, I would be happier seeing something that I know how much it is going to help.  The effect is already available from AAs and 12% from the bard song Dance of the Dragorn Rk. III and 20% from our GBA and BA, but those share a stacking slot.  Giving fero this effect instead in a different slot so it stacks with other buffs instead of raising resist caps how I would prefer to see it work if it were getting a change.

It's quite simple. If it is resistable we will resist it most the time. If the devs don't want us to resist it we wont. That's why adding resists or asking for X chance to resist a spell wont go through. Devs as a whole don't want us resisting raid mobs and they do that by adding a negative 1000 or more mod to detrimental spells.

I've read the explanation on resists but have forgotten it. Basically the ai compares our level to mobs level, factor in modifiers then roll a check. Once we are even con or above a mob in level it becomes hard for them to land a spell on us.

That's the whole point of wanting a revamp - if fero provided a bonus to resist caps, then a single cast ferocity spell will do a couple of things. 1) It will mean a LIMITED number of people in a raid have a better chance to resist those hard to avoid spells with high negative mods. If the devs want something to be unresistable, they have a setting for that. The whole point of any buff or debuff is to shift a fight in one side or the other's favor. 2) If boosting the resist caps can make a difference between winning and losing, then that's EXACTLY the sort of thing we need. Strange as it may sound, if ferocity can improve the odds on fights in a manner that is unique to us, it might just mean we will have a place in raids/groups. The balancing act comes between improving the odds enough that the spell is noticeably useful, but not so overpowered as to require rebalancing raids or named mobs. Keeping it single target with a shorter duration (15 to 20 min with focus/AAs) and a shortish (30 to 90 sec) refresh time will keep it from being overpowered and give beastlords another reason to be included in groups/on raids.

Most spell lines improve and/or expand their effects with higher level versions but they don't generally become completely different. If people want something that's basically a new spell line, then we're all better off if we formally kill fero line and build the new spell from scratch and avoid any sort of legacy issues.

As to retargeting for the main tank or 2 or 3 of the more important raid members to land the spell on, that's what the extended target box is for. Not only can you set specific slots for the person designated to a particular role or a specific character, you can save target "sets" and swap between them in a way akin to hot button bars. My extended targets on raids are generally set for monitoring casters of one type or another. Not only does this make it easier to target them for paragon, it also lets me monitor their mana status automatically. For crowd control critical raids, knowing when your enchanters go down and get rezzed without communication lag is a big plus. I keep SE memmed in my raid spellset as well -- a couple seconds of beastlord dps < getting para and SE on a chanter in raids quickly most of the time IMO.