Author Topic: Community Leaders  (Read 11967 times)

Offline Umlat

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Community Leaders
« on: June 18, 2010, 10:18:41 pm »
I am not sure how many of you have had the dubious pleasure of following the "What class do you despise most" thread in the EQ Forums. I have to say however, that I find Tulisin unacceptable as a CL. Judging from what I have heard from some of you and read of your posts for others, it seems there is a certain agreement on this point. Since Zatozia does not seem to be willing or able to include a Beastlord in this program to give us our own voice where it matters a little bit more, it may be that our only options at this point are to try to have the more obstructive sounding members of the CL program removed from a position where they are more able to press for an agenda that is detrimental to us.

Given the situation we beastlords find ourselves in, regarding our raiding future and even our class viability in general, we cannot afford to sit passive, beyond a certain amount of suggesting, any longer. Until the Devs and CLs see we are VERY serious about how unacceptable we find the current state of affairs in EQ, I suspect they are going to continue to not take us seriously and push aside fixes for spells and AAs, continue to acquiesce to the demands of other classes concerning our status and abilities.

To that end, I think that we, as a group need to campaign to have Tulisin removed as a CL. Give his extreme stance as pro magician, regardless of the consequences to the community as a whole or any part thereof and his repeated insistence that mages must be superior in all aspects of things when it comes to pets, any attempt to improve our warders by strengthening them or giving them new capabilities, will simply make the problem worse since anything beastlords get that is good will simply end up becoming something mages will campaign to get a better version of. Getting any sort of improvements for our warder that aren't tied to a corresponding improvement in magician pets is probably impossible with the present CL demographics. Any improvement tied to more for magician pets is likely to fail as well, since many are of the opinion they are far too powerful as it is.

We've played nice so far and look where it's gotten us. It's time to play hardball.

Offline Inphared

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Re: Community Leaders
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2010, 10:51:20 pm »
I realize and feel for the position of the underdog, but I can already tell you that getting someone removed will be more difficult (read: impossible) than you had planned, and will accomplish nothing in terms of forwarding your goals down the right channels.

You cannot expect to shoot off a finger of the hand you expect to feed you. Like it or not, he has a more direct channel to the people in power to change things than any of you do. Attempting to remove him (which, again, won't happen) will just make anyone who tries look like a butthurt child that doesn't know how to vent his/her frustrations appropriately.

If you're really looking for productive channels to get your voice heard, stay away from the areas where the people you don't like can negatively impact your discussions. These forums are a prime example where not many people visit (which can be both a good, and a bad thing.)

Use private messages. Ignore the "middle man" that is the veteran's lounge. Forward your requests directly to the people you want to hear them. Direct them to these boards. Encourage and persist that they give input.

Chopping off heads isn't the way to do it.

Offline Chana

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Re: Community Leaders
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2010, 02:56:34 am »
Warning: there may or may not be some strong swerves in discussion.

1.) we dont know why there arent any more CLs in the program yet, much less why there arent any beastlords. its possible that paperwork has fallen behind (OMG She is the Community Relations person for 4 games, give her an assistant!), since none of us actually see whats going on in san diego, we can only guess, and conjecture is never a good basis for complaints.

2.) Tulisin has never said that he doesnt want beastlords boosted, or even beastlord pets boosted, he just doesnt want beastlord pets to be better than magician pets. currently, beastlord pets are what, worse than SK pets? thats a LOT of room for growth, without stepping on his toes. and like ive said before, its NOT HIS CALL. he may oppose it tooth and nail, but in the end its down to the devs, and what they think is best for the game. Tulisin cannot mandate game changes, he doesnt have that kind of power. neither do tadenea, tharkis, hulkling, or myself. we are liaisons to the devs, we send information to the devs, and they send information to us, and the stuff we are allowed to state publicly, we will.

3.) i am 150% for a beastlord CL, because like it has been said before, we dont know the class as well as some of the main bsts do. however, that will probably cause that future CL in question to be very pro-beastlord, which seems to be what you are hating on tulisin for.  OF COURSE Tulisin is going to be pro-magician. Just like im pro SK and hulkling is pro paladin and minimind swing axe gud. but that is not to say that anyone is anti-class.

4.) i understand that the class has problems, but trying to individually taking a club to each individual voice that you dont like wont get it done any quicker than just rationally posting and offering logical thought out arguments. its frustrating, i understand this, but i can assure you the devs know of your issues, and something WILL be done. calling people fascists or going on crusades to kill off another class' representation is not going to get you any points or get your issues solved any quicker.

5.) okay, your pets suck. understood. but that is only ONE aspect of your class that you'd like to see get worked on. what about utility? what about personal/spell DPS? what about burst dps? what about lasercats? theres a bunch of other pathways that you can discuss without your hated tulisin opposing you. if you keep focusing on pets, he's going to show up, and he might not like what you are attempting. but again, theres LOTS of room for growth for the Warder and the Yowl line. and again, there are many CLs. if you dont think tulisin will help you in the pet department, then ask me or tadanea or minimind or Cinexa, theyll relay it if you dont think one of them will. here, has a list:

Hulkling
Jyve
Naladini
Nanyea
Nolrog
OrmusTR
Samanna
Tharkis
Tulisin_Dragonflame
---Xislaben---
Saroc_Luclin
---CinexaTR---
Waring_McMarrin
Tnexus_Prexus
Rahzeael_
Unmei
crystilla
minimind
Tadenea
Chanaluss_of_Kunzar
Rasper_helpdesk

i can guarentee you that each one of them will have an opinion on SOMETHING, being a CL doesnt preclude them from having one. some of them will be strong opinions. but each one of them was picked for the CL program for a specific reason, be it class knowledge, pet knowledge, Lore, or general mechanics. we are here to help, even if we get into scuffles sometimes.

chana's a big boy, and this is your forum, so flame me if you must, but im not going anywhere. as a CL, even if a specific aspect of the community hates me, i have to do my job.

Offline Grbage

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Re: Community Leaders
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2010, 04:06:25 am »
Have to agree getting Tulsin removed wont happen. What I'm personally working on is getting Tulsin to state his points and reasons. We know devs are keeping an eye on things and drawing him out will better inform devs just where his agenda is.
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Offline Hzath

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Re: Community Leaders
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2010, 05:14:01 am »
I can't believe he won't back down on having equal warders/air pets that are good enough for most situations and pushing for truly superior specialized elementals, to the point that they're worth using over the air pet.  It seems that he just likes having an IWIN pet and doesn't want the hassle of switching.  I'm with you that he's being a tard in that thread Umlat but we have better things to focus on than trying to get rid of him.
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Offline Sikkem

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Re: Community Leaders
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2010, 06:12:31 am »
Even if you could get him removed, which I don't think would happen, it wouldn't change anything. He was doing this kind of thing before the current CL program existed and has some ears that listen to him.


2.) Tulisin has never said that he doesnt want beastlords boosted, or even beastlord pets boosted, he just doesn't want beastlord pets to be better than magician pets. currently, beastlord pets are what, worse than SK pets? thats a LOT of room for growth, without stepping on his toes.

Have to disagree with you on this point Chana. His aim isn't for mage pets to stay better than every other pet at every possible situation that can arise in the game. His stated aim is that the gap that exists between every pet (including sk etc) is to at best stay the same. That means if warders got a 150% dps increase he wants a 150% dps increase for all 5 mage pets as a minimum. If sk pets get a defensive boost so they don't fly apart when an orc pawn looks at them he wants the same percentage increase for all 5 mage pets.

I have no problem with CL's having opinions what I do believe is no person should be given the CL position when they actively try and get other classes nerfed. I could not believe some one could be so petty as to try and get a class nerfed because they had a 5% chance to receive more pets than him in one expansion, Tuilsin is that childish.

I just remembered, to add to his childishness he then went around using monster summoning to get animal pets and posted pics taunting beastlords that not only where his pets better but he could have more animal pets than beastlords.  :roll:

Personally I wont do any more betas while he is there, I see them as pointless and a very large waste of my time and I trust nothing he says on open forums.

That aside I have no problems with any of the other CL's (there was another mage in triality I think he has left) and appreciate the work you guys do to try and help not just our class but the balance of the game in general.





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Offline Catnip_Inny

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Re: Community Leaders
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2010, 03:46:56 pm »
Chana its great that CLs like you and Tadenea stop by the beast forums here and try to help.  With us not having our own voice its nice knowing some people are listening so thank you.  It must be so frustrating for those bsts who are working hard to make change to our class only to be shot down by a power hungry mage CL though and thats where all the frustration comes from.

Thanks again for your help its appreciated

Cat

Offline AbyssalMage

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Re: Community Leaders
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2010, 09:14:52 am »
Something you said struck me as interesting...


but each one of them was picked for the CL program for a specific reason, be it class knowledge, pet knowledge, Lore, or general mechanics.

I would add more to it but it would be a bashing post as I can't think of anything nice to say so I will just say that I find that statement interesting...

Back on topiic sort of...
Thanks for posting the other CL's Chana. Mabye we can get some constructive feedback to the Dev's and bypass "a rotten apple" of the CL program. My only concern is that I do follow some of the class boards and I know that every class has some issue they are trying to work out (Palidins and DPS/Slay and Druids and end game populations is the two I am following the closest besides Bst issues). With their concerns so focused on their own survival (Every class, not just Palidins and Druids) in EQ I worry they (CL's who care) wont have any fight (or time) left to fight for us. And as everyone knows their are certain individuals in the program who prefer to fight against everything instead of compromising.

Thank you though for potrolling our boards and commenting back to us. It is nice to have confirmation that our concerns are being forwarded by CL's who care about the game (and its health) to the developers.

-Grimwar
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Offline nedoirah

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Re: Community Leaders
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2010, 10:29:38 pm »
I started getting a headache reading that thread.

All I can say about Tulsin is he is arrogant ignorant biased and completely egotistical. He gets completely offended by the very notion that a non-mage pet ~might~ possibly in a single situation be better than a mage pet. Forget the fact that pets are central to bst class or mage class but to be the absolute best in ~every~ situation is ludicrous. Nothing more than ~ego~. Screw game balance as long as his class is the absolute best.

I'm still considering mainchanging even though it has nothing to do with this CL. This decision was in the works ever since UF came out and how poorly we looked in every aspect. I love my bst and probably always will but shamans are looking better to me every day.

On a side note, I agree with you Umlat, he has no place as a CL or even representing bsts in any form. Ego is the reason most rl managers get fired.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 10:31:13 pm by nedoirah »

Offline kharthai

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Re: Community Leaders
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2010, 01:38:35 am »
Just too much rabble rabble for me!

Offline Karve

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Re: Community Leaders
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2010, 08:28:06 am »
Thanks Chana, your time is very much appreciated.

I'm not sure I'd want Tus forwarding info to the devs, say if we asked for:
1) pet increase (air pet level dps +stun+tanking)
2) wrath of the pink teddy-bear (effect group hug)

I would imagine item 2 being forwarded and item 1 being "ldog ate my homework, sir"

Please please do NOT give us item 2 btw, I am joking:)


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Offline Tadenea

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Re: Community Leaders
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2010, 01:15:41 pm »
Pink teddy-bear don't sound scarey, I rather see a killer Bunny
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Offline Karve

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Re: Community Leaders
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2010, 01:41:29 pm »
Only if its a copy of Rumbling Servant with a bunny model :)

So how is our list so far peeps? (I'm sure I keep derailing everything everywhere)

1) Pet Tankability/Survivability - mucho love++
1a) Pet DPS .. hmm  but more is always nice, even as a class we don't seem to be entirely convinced on this pet aspect, yes some more, but generally we seem to feel that the pet DPS although sucky we can live with mostly although low aa's really do impact it badly.
2) Dots - resist check - please check/amend so that we don't require 4-5 casts before getting it to stick.
3) Paragon, both - Increase values to be worthwhile in the current game
3a) possibility to have crit-heals on the heal part of paragons (both) , possibility to crit mana ?
4) class defining - endurance BUFF (like +4k endurance buff hehe)
5) class defining - possibilty of Paragon of Body - endurance+ health regen - share paragon timer
6) Base heal values, please increase slightly .. some ~25% should bring these into line *currently* but perhaps ensure that next heal spell in HoThule is a suitable value and cast time to be 0.1 or 0.5, recast delay of the current cast timer ?)
7) Utility buffs - please review carefully stacking and values so that these are worthwhile alternatives (Hp/AC etc) Stamina no longer useful, see Endurance buff above, Runspeed is pretty much negated but a group Bhi`li might be at least of some use).
8.) Slow line - consider a bit of revitalisation, ours is overwritten by .. hmm warriors now?
9) Incapacitate - upgrade please, long overdue.
10) Nukes ... we don't seem to have mentioned these recently, are we happy on these?
11) wishlist - aura to make us group/raid friendly ... see seperate threads/burst dps thread.

Burst DPS - being dealt with elsewhere.

New stuff . kinda seems we want our current stuff fixing before we worry too much about new things.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 01:44:14 pm by Karve »

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Offline bradam

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Re: Community Leaders
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2010, 04:33:14 pm »
Pink teddy-bear don't sound scarey, I rather see a killer Bunny

Pink killer bunny rumbling servant that keeps going and going and going....

Offline nedoirah

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Re: Community Leaders
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2010, 07:55:57 pm »

3) Paragon, both - Increase values to be worthwhile in the current game
3a) possibility to have crit-heals on the heal part of paragons (both) , possibility to crit mana ?


I was thinking about this today. What about a newer version of paragon that lasts a shorter time but does the same amount of regen as regular paragon?

Currently Maxxed paragon with maxxed ext. aa gives about 10k mana over 9 ticks (I think) but what about a 15 min (if it's considered overpowered then make it a longer reuse timer) reuse timer paragon that gives 10k mana back in 4 ticks? Call it heightened paragon or something.  If it requires a longer recast timer to make it workable then it's fine with me cause it could easily be explained that this new heightened version requires more concentration on the part of the beastlord.

OR

A mana version of the cleric shared health aa that balances the party health then gives a hot. Call it paragon of balance. Balances the entire group's mana then finishes with a mana-only paragonlasting about the same amount of time.